Raph's Treatment on the show

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.

Sorry if you feel that way, Yes there are varying degrees of Raph fans. For the record, I have no problem with Raph having a soft side. I loved how he cared for Leo on the farm and his interaction with spike.The Mona Lisa bit was too forced, rushed and out of character. It could've been handled better. The point is Raph is not nearly as respected in the show as he should be. I wish more people could actually see that but it is what it is.

Just because something has the TMNT name slapped on it doesn't mean it's a totally flawless product. As a consumer and supporter of the show, it's our responsibility to voice our concerns so that improvements can be made. I for one want the show to get better over time, not to be chained to a tired formula and slip into the realm of mediocrity. I want the characters to be handled equally and fairly. I still feel Raph needs serious help here but Mikey also does to a small degree. I don't want him to be known for being an idiot all the time. These fixes can be made considering the show used to be pretty equal and solid in Season one.

[ssjup81]

Aaronardo: I see. For me, the Yokai ep is my most disliked ep of this series so far, but it's for petty reasons. That aside, it's still sad, though when some can no longer enjoy something.

Savacooza: Surprisingly, I didn't find Raph's being attracted to Mona for being a strong fighter out of character at all. It felt right in-character to me given his personality. It also didn't feel forced to me...from HIS side. For Mona, it felt like it moved too fast (but definitely could see the respect she had for him)...but I kind of feel the circumstance they were in played into that. I also wonder if it was just more animalistic. You know, like how the peacock attracts a peahen by displaying his feathers. Raph displayed his strength and such, attracting her to him. Maybe for those of their species that's how it works. I also found it ironic how he's the only one of his brothers to like someone who reciprocated the feelings. In other words, it was mutual on both sides.

Anyway, the main thing that surprised me was how open Raph was when talking about her to the others. I was expecting one of the others (Mikey mostly) teasing or picking up on his liking of Mona Lisa and his adamantly denying it and threatening to pound anyone who said otherwise. Oh well, I still thought it was cute, especially the kiss and Raph doing the cheesy leg thing.

[Shark_Blade]

I see nothing with how he's been treated so far.

He's rough and tough for sure, but he's not afraid to show a LOT of his feminine side too which is pretty bold and avant garde imo. None of his previous carnations are like that.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

I see nothing with how he's been treated so far.

He's rough and tough for sure, but he's not afraid to show a LOT of his feminine side too which is pretty bold and avant garde imo. None of his previous carnations are like that.

Good point. I think Brandon, Ciro and the whole team should be applauded with what they've done with Raphael. They, like I said earlier, are exploring other aspects of Raph that other incarnations left out. Not saying any other is bad- not by a long shot- it's just each incarnation has shown us unique sides of each Turtle and Nick is going for the softer side.

I see no problem with that

[myconius]

hahahaha!!! when Raph lifted his leg up when snogging Mona Lisa, that was TOO much!!!!!

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by The Happy One

Good point. I think Brandon, Ciro and the whole team should be applauded with what they've done with Raphael. They, like I said earlier, are exploring other aspects of Raph that other incarnations left out. Not saying any other is bad- not by a long shot- it's just each incarnation has shown us unique sides of each Turtle and Nick is going for the softer side.

I see no problem with that

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show?

Spoiler:

(Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)

The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show?

Spoiler:

(Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)

The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.

Again, you hit the nail on the head. I applaud you.

[Tarris Vaal]

This does bring up a good point though - and not necessarily one that applies exclusively to Raph.

The consensus seems to be that - all in all - Nick does have plenty of good ideas for each of the turtles;

The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth

To take just a few you pointed out. And - as you stated as well - this applies to other things like Mikey learning from his goofiness and the assorted romance arcs.

The problem seems to be more than anything that these ideas appear and then have little to no continuing consequence. Stuff like the Slash feud was a great chance for ongoing development for Raph - but it didnt happen. Same said for the Dark Raph idea, aftershocks from the invasion, losing Splinter, heck even Mona Lisa could end up being something of a one shot.

I think thats the show's biggest weakness, is this unwillingness or incapability to explore a longer running character arc. And with those it Does explore to be dragged out or quietly forgotten (Karai topping the list here - I'm not completely convinced the Love triangle arc ended so much as faded to the background for a while.)

Either way, keeping this to the point of Raph in particular - this habit Nick seems to have of avoiding arcs has hit him really badly. So we do get this repeating style of making him the go to fall guy to prove the bad guy is really dangerous.

Ironically Raph has become equivalent to a Red Shirt.

I do wonder how different the show would be if it wasn't concerned about trying to keep its episodes more or less self contained for the sake of the channels showing them. Would Raph have fared much better if Nick knew it could rely on the episodes being shown in correct order all the time?

[BabyTurtles]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

This does bring up a good point though - and not necessarily one that applies exclusively to Raph.

The consensus seems to be that - all in all - Nick does have plenty of good ideas for each of the turtles;



To take just a few you pointed out. And - as you stated as well - this applies to other things like Mikey learning from his goofiness and the assorted romance arcs.

The problem seems to be more than anything that these ideas appear and then have little to no continuing consequence. Stuff like the Slash feud was a great chance for ongoing development for Raph - but it didnt happen. Same said for the Dark Raph idea, aftershocks from the invasion, losing Splinter, heck even Mona Lisa could end up being something of a one shot.

I think thats the show's biggest weakness, is this unwillingness or incapability to explore a longer running character arc. And with those it Does explore to be dragged out or quietly forgotten (Karai topping the list here - I'm not completely convinced the Love triangle arc ended so much as faded to the background for a while.)

Either way, keeping this to the point of Raph in particular - this habit Nick seems to have of avoiding arcs has hit him really badly. So we do get this repeating style of making him the go to fall guy to prove the bad guy is really dangerous.

Ironically Raph has become equivalent to a Red Shirt.

I do wonder how different the show would be if it wasn't concerned about trying to keep its episodes more or less self contained for the sake of the channels showing them. Would Raph have fared much better if Nick knew it could rely on the episodes being shown in correct order all the time?

Do you know how many episodes Mikey has to screw up/be ignored and then prove himself? That's like pretty much all his episodes except like a few. (then again I haven't watched the later part of season 3 and nothing of 4 so...if someone wants to prove me wrong...). It's like having Raph have a temper tantrum episode every single time.....

You'd think the writers would get tired of repeating themselves.


the problem with Nick is that it's trying to be grand without all the effort needed to actually obtain that..... ......all they do is try and shock you....but they barely ever followup on it.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

Do you know how many episodes Mikey has to screw up/be ignored and then prove himself? That's like pretty much all his episodes except like a few. (then again I haven't watched the later part of season 3 and nothing of 4 so...if someone wants to prove me wrong...). It's like having Raph have a temper tantrum episode every single time.....

You'd think the writers would get tired of repeating themselves.


the problem with Nick is that it's trying to be grand without all the effort needed to actually obtain that..... ......all they do is try and shock you....but they barely ever followup on it.

Agreed. The show is losing my interest.

[ssjup81]

So...is the demographic the show is actually aimed at (not us) still watching?

[Ninturtle]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show?

Spoiler:

(Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)

The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.

I don't see how Raph is always hit with slapstick, and the Turkey thing wasn't too far. He was aggressive towards Sir Malichi and Sir Malichi got insulted and turned Raphs head into a turtkey to mess with him. I agree that he didn't get enough focus in season 3 but recenlky he's been getting more episodes.

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

So...is the demographic the show is actually aimed at (not us) still watching?

Ratings have gone down, but honestly, half, if not, most, of this show's audience are people like us. And even if not that, kids aren't stupid. I'm sure they'd figure out something's up at some point with the same episodes being repeated over and over.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

Ratings have gone down, but honestly, half, if not, most, of this show's audience are people like us. And even if not that, kids aren't stupid. I'm sure they'd figure out something's up at some point with the same episodes being repeated over and over.

But I thought that online viewership wasn't counted and that the show was badly promoted? That aside, I still like the show and as a kid, I loved the OT and watched it a lot, despite my getting older and that show was a bit repetitive with their episodes with self-contained plots. Maybe that's why I haven't any real qualms with this show.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show?

Spoiler:

(Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)

The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.

Erm...okay...

I'm going to be polite as possible with this, Gold...I promise.

But you want to see me drop the contentedness so I will.

What I'm NOT content with is your opinion.

Explore is the right word. It's what they're doing. Period. The creators of this show are looking for other angles to show Raphael in. It's that simple.

Now as for Leo getting the only 'good treatment' I can see what you mean. But I believe the correct word is his 'good treatment' is displayed more often- as in, Leo gets a lot of focus.

But don't go saying the others have no development, now. If you're gonna sit here and tell me that you have seen no development in Don, in Mikey, or in Raph either then, I'm sorry, you're lying to yourself.

Besides just physical maturity, each and every Turtle has grown and developed into more mature young adults. And must I go into details? I think it's been adressed on numerous occasions just how developed these guys are.

So your point is fallin' a tad flat for me on that account.

Now as to why people are criticizing the show? Well why are people enjoying it?

Because everybody's got a preference, my friend. You said it yourself.

I do believe that I've said this before, Gold, but whatever direction they go in with Raph there's always going to be those that aren't going to be 100% satisfied.


So that answers your question. Peopel criticize this show because you haave millions of people- all different ages, all different opinions- watching. Every show will have criticism, my friend.

And the Turkey Head? Now I think that's just groping for something to complain about, don't ya think?

So, with all due respect, I understand where you and a ton of others are coming from. But I think some of you dudes have to start picking up a little contentedness now and then and maybe you'll enjoy the show a bit more. Yeah, there are a caboodle of things that I could complain about- trust me. But I usually stop and think 'is it really that bad?' And if it is I also try to see why Ciro or Brandon or anybody on the creative team did things in certain ways. It really does help, so I suggest you try it.

And there's nothing wrong with complaining, Gold. I know you think I hate complaints. But, it's not that. It's just some of you guys really, really, really like to focus on negetives of the show and I don't mean just adress them. Some people exaggerate them and embolden them so that a minor problem becomes an HUGE problem and all this stuff happens.

So...um...yeah. That's all for me. I really hope I didn't offend you or undermine your opinion because, as always, it's not my motive. Just replying to what you said as all

You take care.

[Groverman62]

Wait which recent episodes have had Raph throwing temper tantrums?

[GoldMutant]

(Unsure if quote will let me say what I need) I'll say it one last time to reiterate:

By "development", Leo is the only one growing as a character easily seen throughout season 3 psychologically. He's the only Turtle I can see actual growth in; though rushing the healing hands seems jarring to be a last minute resolve to the Karai plot in The Deadly Venom. Now, as for the other Turtles I"m going to point this out:

Donatello- I don't see a single development other than the love triangle fading into nonexistent. Aaron did point this out in season 2, but the last time I felt Donnie was an actual character was the rampaging Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed due to him in a harsh conflict of freezing the poor sap. The majority of season 2 did give him plot, but that's my main issue here. Donnie gets a large amount of plot which I respect, but most of them go absolutely nowhere or are rushed. A big one was the retromutagen which while hinted at up to Slash and Destroy went on the backburner, even then the passing mentions are not there. It's a prominent issue outside why Donatello is being close to a death;y brink; it's a 180 of his development. Unless they hint at more of his smarts or utilizing his character properly, I don't see growth.

Michelangelo- Oh boy here we go, the big one to me. Mikey possesses no growth at all; while I know this version can be handled for episodic focus, I don't see growth. Mikey might not be in the same boat with horrible treatment as Raphael, but of the four brothers I honestly think he's the second worst; if not then Mikey is possibly the worst written turtle in the series. The Croaking is all I have to say because after his growth in season 2's conclusion with Wrath of Tiger Claw, Kuro Kabuto, Dimension X, and Invasion all of it goes missing by this episode in season 3. He screws up for.... no reason whatsoever and rewarded when he caused the Punk Frogs to enter the farmhouse. I know for a fact Mikey wouldn't be this stupid, but why is it he's trusting of Napoleon whereas the previous episode he doesn't trust "Mrs. O'Neil?"

I can mention many things of each time Cipes' Mikey does an awesome moment, he takes two steps back in development. No more apparent is he bad then from the crush on Renet all the way to Dumb Don. That crush was beyond atrocious, completely out of the blue and makes Mikey a love sick puppy; I couldn't stand this behavior at all in the episode because of it being sudden. When compared to Leo, Don, or even Raph's relationships, Mikey's enters left field so suddenly even as a crush. Granted, Mega Shredder and Yokai made him how I want a Michelangelo; then Creeping Doom comes and the character falls flat again to be an idiot. When a character as comic relief does this often, I don't laugh, I facepalm at the insulting nature. So, Michelangelo might have grown in the past but each time his idiocy in the show destroys that development.

Raphael- I would have no problem with exploration if what happens are explained in context. Personally, it's a major annoyance to use one character as a scapegoat often; no more apparent is the show doing it with Raphael. Like I said, I can tolerate issues to an extent, but the exploration isn't well executed. I'm going to use comparison to both softie Raph and badass Raph in this show on the difference. Let's start with emotional Raphael:

Arguably the common example of this series is to use Spike/Slash and for good reason. Raph often interacted with the turtle to convey why Raphael has issues in the show, especially with his family. Eventually, it blossomed into Raph having to fight the monster he created who became like an attack dog; even then Raphael did show compassion when he's under guilt for what he did. Similarly it also happened with Karai's debut in New Girl in Town during the leadership; after Michelangelo was knocked out by Snakeweed, Raph didn't keep fighting. Instead he held back with him and Donnie taking Mike back to the lair before Raph went to Leo and Karai. These examples came from the very beginning, where Raph was caring to his family even if he's driven crazy by the household.

In comparison, take a look at other relationships in the show for this character. Given we go by recent memory, take Mona Lisa as a prime example. Besides the given motivation of her similarities to Raph, why do these two have an attraction? Not only is out of character for Raph to suddenly like her even as a teen crush, Mona is similar for suddenly liking him even as a tough guy. The chemistry was rushed throughout to make Raph macho to impress a creature he just met.

As for tough guy Raph, it's downplayed often. Cockroach Terminator shows the tough guy persona obviously to face a fear, but others include Slash and Destroy to protect those you love, the recent Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers with fighting Zog and even the commencing of Casey and Raph's barely utilized friendship. Compare that to now, the only macho thing done was fighting the dragons on a planet with differing abilities abnormal from Earth, such as with the moon decreasing our weight. In addition, the only cool moment was the rematch against Rocksteady with the retromutagen in Pig and the Rhino. ("But I didn't!") I'm not asking for Raph to be a tough guy each time, but the little moments sprinkled in assist the matters on a character who never develops without limelight.

To me, Raphael should be a mixture of emotions while still facing a demon within himself should his anger get the best. (A Shredder dream maybe?) While softness in a character should be done with Raph to make him three dimensional, other traits are severely downplayed. I know a character can be macho while also caring towards everyone; people might think it's wrong but Vegeta from DBZ is kind of an example, even if vague. Declining these traits doesn't help matters, it further weakens the character and doesn't show development, especially when a particular trait takes over from episode to episode. (Must I mention Clash in comparison to Mega Shredder, Turtle Temper, anything with Spike, etc.?)

People enjoy what they want, a personal taste of it being apples to oranges or DC to Marvel. I'll need examples from you as to how and why these four grow, specifically from episode to episode. I can agree on Leo, but the others I can't defend. I haven't seen an ounce of development for good reason because I don't encounter a passing mention or the development goes two steps backwards. Maybe I'll be wrong in season 4, but until then Don loosely and especially both Raph and Mikey aren't getting their proper treatment developmental wise.

[kelligrafie]

Just because something has the TMNT name slapped on it doesn't mean it's a totally flawless product. As a consumer and supporter of the show, it's our responsibility to voice our concerns so that improvements can be made.

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

At the end of the day, we can complain about Viacom/Nickelodeon's censorship but ultimately they brought back the TMNT, they funded it. Maybe somebody else might've tried to do it, if they hadn't, but you can never guarantee a comebacks success.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

(Dares to imagine further horror beyond the restraints)

Sabacooza can believe what he wants, it's his right as a person as is everyone. All I'm saying with Raphael is his balance is off heavily. Considering they include a drug reference, nearly got away with swearing twice, showed the whole world blown up with an onscreen death, so on and so forth, the restraints are there but are possible. All I want for Raph is to be properly balanced from tough guy to softie, the former can be done in a toned method. It's my issue with this character especially when the majority of the wit I like is kinda non existent.

Just once is all I ask, the writers have proven they can get away with difficult matters considered "dark" by Nick standards. (Spongebob did accomplish harsher themes, remember that. ) It's clear though that restraints on Nick are at times missing, though largely an entirely new debate altogether. I'm not insulting what these guys do, but the constant pattern is kinda irritating.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

At the end of the day, we can complain about Viacom/Nickelodeon's censorship but ultimately they brought back the TMNT, they funded it. Maybe somebody else might've tried to do it, if they hadn't, but you can never guarantee a comebacks success.

It has nothing to do with censorship. We just want the show to get/be better. It has/had so much potential, with having many talented developers, writers, and others. However, it doesn't have enough effort put into it. That is sad, honestly.

You can put all the blame on Nickelodeon or Viacom. However, I think it is the writers, developers, and everyone else behind the show should be held responsible as well.