Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

He just kind of looks like...a golem.

exactly, or the thing from the hobbit... the face looks childlike. It's from the same crew as PDMT so... no surprise I guess

Not that Doomsday ever looked that great...it's a half baked design to start with.

[Commenter 42]

maybe This guy did the design?

Spoiler:

Maybe he was done at Weta.

anyway...

[CyberCubed]

So is Lex supposed to be gay in this movie? That's the thing I took the most from this trailer.

[Leo656]

It's because they based it off of Michael Shannon's face and "stretched" or manipulated it. You can tell if you squint. Kinda weird, but... there's really no one way Doomsday ever looks to begin with, so I'm flexible with that. Since they took the Kryptonian DNA from Zod's corpse I guess they figured why not make him resemble Zod a little bit. Eh. I don't think they needed to but I don't see what it hurts. It's ugly. He's ugly. He's supposed to be ugly. I'm not overly concerned with the face, as I am with how much catastrophic, Biblical amounts of damage he can do. And in that, I am feeling pretty secure.

And again, I'm almost positive that was just a Level 1 Doomsday. I don't know what the Final Boss version looks like but I *kind of* have a faint idea, which, if accurate, should be rather nice.

I keep thinking back to old art and descriptions of older Doomsday concepts and designs and ideas they tried going with over the years... We're actually really, really lucky. The guy could have tubes full of liquid Kryptonite sticking out of him everywhere like some kinda goof. They fought for that way back when! No foolin'! I'm like, "Wow, heat vision/flame breath. Kinda neat. I remember when he was supposed to attack Superman by puking liquid Kryptonite at him in that Tim Burton horror show!" I'm content. We got lucky.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So is Lex supposed to be gay in this movie? That's the thing I took the most from this trailer.

Eisenbergs' range extends only so far.

[CyberCubed]

You know Eisenberg would have made a great Riddler. I don't know why they casted him as Luthor.

I could have seen him running around with a question mark cane dressed as Riddler telling Batman and Superman to solve his riddles.

[Leo656]

Are people not listening? That's his "disguise". That's not the "real" Lex Luthor. We only see GLIMPSES of the real Lex Luthor in this trailer. We mostly see the "hipster douchebag" persona he puts on for the public. But that's an ACT. He is PRETENDING.

In case you haven't noticed, people having dual identities is a huge recurring theme in this particular piece of fiction, from Clark to Bruce to Diana to Lex. We have seen glimpses of each of them in both their "disguises" and their "Real Selves". The fact that everyone has two selves, the one the world perceives and the one that really exists, and how each character works to reconcile the two, is part of the entire theme of the movie. Like how Superman just wants to be a good guy and help out, but some people see him as a menace, or how Batman's just trying to protect people the only way he knows how but he's coming off like a paranoid lunatic to everyone else.

Spoiler:

Is it gonna take the stuff near the end where Lex starts shooting people in the face before people start getting it? Swear to God.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Leo656

there's really no one way Doomsday ever looks to begin with, so I'm flexible with that.

err, yes there is:



I know what you mean - sometimes he has longer hair, more or less spikes, maybe horns maybe not - and sure, they were going to fubar him in the movies of the past...

I don't care to be honest, but if I did, I'd argue he looks like dog shįt. But I don't care - I DO care that the quality is suffering across the board everywhere I look these days. Reminds me of the late 80's when horror films started looking cheaper and cheaper. I'm looking at the quality. I hear ya, he morphs and powers up later on - okay...but it's not just him. It's every movie. It's warcraft, and Gods of Egypt, Xmen Apocalypse, on and on.

It's insane to see the quality of work done by people I know, at home, then see what a studio has spent millions on. Mind blowing. You can't draw a comparison without shaking your head.

[Leo656]

That's a really good Doomsday but I mean c'mon, literally every person whose ever drawn him really has done it quite differently. I just know that what we saw isn't all there is to see, and what we saw wasn't really very bad. Not by my standards anyway.

As far as CGI and stuff goes, I know you're really close to it so I won't even engage on that because I'm ignorant of it. You know my personal opinion on it, so to me, it's honestly a "best it was ever gonna be" type thing. Close enough for government work. Or LexCorp/Cadmus, in this case.

Some people are swearing they saw Para-Demons in one scene but I'm not totally sure that's what that was. If so, though... Nice. Nice.

Spoiler:

I've heard a rumor that the "Nightmare" dream sequence was part of a vision Wonder Woman receives that shows what may happen to the world if "The Seven" are not united, including hints of Darkseid's eventual appearance, which is what motivates her to get involved. If that's true, then that really could have been Para-Demons, which is goddamn spiffy.

[Commenter 42]

Yeah - it's just you know, things like this:

Spoiler:

Two guys made that. just an example of where the state of the art is at.
it's sad how little respect the effects get now. May as well be sock puppets.

I guess from where I sit, we could be making cg that genuinely frightened or amazed. it's 100% possible. The technical limitations are gone.
Do i literally have to do everything myself?


Like how did we not get this design for bubba lips?

Spoiler:

Like THATS THE GUY, right? you take one look and you know and then, given some refinement, it screams awesome. You can almost hear Tim Curry voicing him or the like. It's not confusing or Ivan F'ing ooze.

[Leo656]

I suppose. I guess I'm just not as emotionally invested in CGI and I'm not sure I ever will be. Not saying that's good or bad; it's just not one of my Big Buttons. I mean, stuff like "Hulk" really annoys me, it's super awful as far as the effects, but I can still watch the movie. I care, but not very much.

Meanwhile, this is unrelated to what we were talking about, it just struck me funny. I love comments floating around like, "So they show Superman and Batman team up? What's the point of the movie then?!" Like, I get that it's called "Batman V Superman", and the conflict has been the selling point up until now... and the trailer definitely gives you a lot (although not anywhere near as much as you think... )... but I don't think that "Superman and Batman end up on the same side" is any kind of f*cking spoiler. Are people really so f*cking simple? I know not everyone does Comic Book, but that's their history. That's their pattern. They meet, they don't get along, they bicker, they throw down, they unite against a common enemy and along the way discover they're really not all that dissimilar. The specifics of the villain(s) or the scenario are fluid and depend on the writer, but those are the beats. That's how the story goes. That's how the movie's doing it. "It's all the same... only the names'll change." I mean, as long as we're keeping the spirit of the material intact, would people rather see Superman and Batman have their first team-up to fight Magpie, as in the comics, or Lex and Doomsday? I know what I'd rather spend my dime on, y'know?

Anyone who thought Superman and Batman weren't going to be on the same side by the end of the movie is dumber than a goddamn box of hammers. And it's more than a few people, for some reason. Last week it was "Why are they fighting? This makes no sense!" This week, it's "Why are they teaming up? This makes no sense!" I hate it but I love it. But come on, people aren't that stupid, are they? I know I joke about being so far ahead of everyone else, as far as things like precognitive ability and plain old rational thinking skills, but I can't be that far ahead of the curve, right?

Did people really think all Superman and Batman were gonna do is punch each other and trade barbs for 45 minutes of a 2-3 hour movie? Sweet Sassy-Molassy.

[Commenter 42]

Back in the big crazy argument, I trying was point this out.

#1 you need to realize we are old now. Our frame of reference counts for nada.

#2 Todays kids just want to watch Batman beat the hell out of Superman. It's a world of cubes out their, freakishly in love with Bat's. Black is the new primary colors or some ****. He's the guy they grew up on. Superman has been some lame idiot for as long as they've been alive. as a child of the late 70's/80's - I have a very different viewpoint.

#3 Outside of comicbook land, no one actually cares. They care about as much as my wife does football. She'll watch the Superbowl, and pretend to know what's going on, but it's only so she can be part of the fun. 70% of the people going to see that movie fall in that camp. The other 30 think Gadot needs blue contacts and another round of roids to be adequate.

It breaks out something like that.

[Andrew NDB]

I really, really hope Doomsday isn't in this. Not because I don't want to see a big Doomsday vs. Henry Cavill thing (I do! properly!), but... we've gotten one Superman movie so far. Where he barely even became Superman at the end, to everyone's whining ("Whhhyyyyy did he kill Zod??? Even though he killed him in the comics decades ago????").

Doomsday is an endgame villain. Save him for later, for god's sake. Use Mongul or somebody, to same effect. For now.

[Leo656]

C42: I get it but I don't get it. It's one'a those kinda things. Like I do get it but I don't get how people can be that way.

People will be both surprised and satisfied by the Superman/Batman fight, regardless of the fact we know they end up on the same side. The "why" for it is interesting, and isn't fully revealed in the trailers. Hinted at, but not fully revealed. It's only partly because Lex is playing them against each other. That's a big part of it, and he does a few very specific things that directly put them in conflict, but that's not the entire reason.

Also, there are plot reasons why Doomsday is, and has to be, the villain, and why Mongul or "some other brute" wouldn't be adequate.

Anyone interested can read on.

Spoiler:

The Superman/Batman fight is kind of in the middle to 2/3s of the way through the movie. Superman gets set up to look like he did something very bad that got a lot of people killed. Batman now completely, legitimately fears Superman as a threat, and is prepared to fight to the death to either stop him, or at least expose him as a monster so that someone else might stop him. He expects Superman to kill him, realizing that if he dies, he will become a martyr and the whole world will fear and hate Superman. He's also ready to kill Superman, if he has to, because he thinks he's just that dangerous and has to be stopped no matter what. Meanwhile, Superman is convinced that Batman was the one who framed him, because of certain things that happen. But, because Superman is Superman, he reluctantly gives Batman the fight he wants - holding back at some points, and fighting back in self-defense at others - pleading with him to stop this, because they're both on the same side, that he doesn't want to hurt Batman, or anyone. "If I wanted it... you'd be dead already." Some people heard that as a threat. It's not a threat, it's a simple statement of fact. "I can hurt you. I don't want to. Please don't escalate this." This is pretty much the only thing "borrowed" from Dark Knight Returns - Batman picking a fight with Superman, who isn't really into it at all and mostly only defending himself. Batman actually comes off as kind of a dick, as he has half of a city booby-trapped with Kryptonite weapons and heavy artillery to try and stop Superman. He is in no way portrayed as the "hero" in the conflict. Batman enters the fight as a paranoid lunatic, willing to become just as destructive a force, just as dangerous of a "monster" in order to stop Superman, as he thinks Superman is. If one of them is the "villain" of the fight, it's Batman. We clearly see where he is coming from, but we all can clearly also see he's completely wrong. It's a vicious fight with a ton of back and forth. Big action and fairly even.

Superman wins. Because of course he does. Batman figures Superman is going to kill him, and tells him to go ahead, and Superman refuses to. In the end, Batman reveals that the fight was partly a test, to see for himself, and show the world as well, what kind of person Superman is. If he killed Batman, Batman would still have "won", because the world would never trust Superman after that, seeing him kill a helpless human being rather than another Kryptonian who almost ended the world. The fact that Superman refuses to take the life of a defenseless victim finally proves to Batman that Superman is legit, that he is what he says he is, that he only wants to help, not hurt anyone, and that the Metropolis scenario was simply a situation that spiraled out of his control. They sort out the whole "Who's framing who?" business, find out it's Lex, because of course it's Lex, Lex is always behind everything, and then go they into Act 3, stop Luthor, and fight Doomsday, who is Lex's EndGame Fail-Safe plan in case Superman and Batman didn't kill each other like he hoped they would.
-------------

The reason it HAS to be Doomsday, is because Lex (and the story) needs certain things to happen. He needs Superman dead, and aside from Kryptonite, which is still unproven at this point, he only knows for sure that a Kryptonian can damn sure kill another one. He figures that if he can create a creature from Kryptonian cells - Doomsday - that he can kill Superman with that if all else fails. He is literally the last resort. Lex's "Doomsday Protocol" for if Batman and Kryptonite didn't work. "In case of Emergency, Break Glass and unleash the giant monster with heat vision", and so forth.

Also, he knows that this will affect Superman psychologically, seeing yet another being Kryptonian-descent wreaking mass destruction on Metropolis. Doomsday is initially controlled from orbit by LexCorp satellites to execute Mass Destruction Protocols, causing F*ck-Tons of destruction on purpose and programmed to make it look to anyone observing it like Superman is really causing most of the damage. Once the link is broken, and Doomsday is free from LexCorp control, sh*t REALLY gets real. Superman, meanwhile, spends the whole movie blaming himself for what happened to Metropolis the first time - he activated the beacon, he led Zod to Earth, he let the fight get out of hand, he killed Zod and wasn't sure he really had to - and now, it's happening again. Lex knows full well what this will do to Superman: Screw with his head, throw him off his game, and make him vulnerable.

That's why it has to be Doomsday, and that's why it has to be Superman, Batman, AND Wonder Woman, not just Superman, or Superman and Batman. Because THIS is the moment , the "If these guys can't save us, the whole world ends" moment that shows the up-until-now-of-split-opinion people of the world why it NEEDS the Justice League. The movie makes it clear that this IS the Endgame Moment, and that only The Trinity can save the world.

Mongul, or Bizarro, wouldn't sell that moment properly. It had to be Doomsday. The impact to the story, and on Superman specifically as a character in the story, would be entirely diluted if you used someone else. The fact that he and Doomsday have a connection via genetic legacy is an important link between this movie and Man of Steel. It's important.

I get it. I understand the "Save it for later" argument, but it doesn't work. Why? Figure they have ten years to tell this "Epic, longform comic book story" as they've described it. They've announced TWO Justice League movies between now and 2021, and a bunch of smaller solo movies and universe-building films. When are they honestly going to have TIME to use the big guns if not now? The most you could honestly do is push everything back by ONE movie, tops. Like, say if you did, I'unno, Bizarro this time, Doomsday in Justice League, and then Darkseid in the Justice League after that... does it really matter? I don't think so. That hardly makes anything better or worse than just doing it now. They are not going to make 5 or 6 big, JLA-centric films in this universe, I promise you. They're going to make like 3, probably. 3 chances to use someone like Doomsday or Darkseid. Be real about it. And if the bottom falls out of the industry or people stop spending money on comic book movies, you might get zero chance.

I say f*ck it. Do it now while WB is willing to spend the money on it. I'm dog-tired of the 20-Year-Cocktease with f*cking Doomsday. It's NEVER going to be any better than this and it was NEVER going to be. The Avengers are going to have fought a bunch of nobodies over 80 movies before they fight f*cking Thanos and I already don't even care anymore because it's been dragged out for a f*cking decade already (slight exaggeration in both respects )! I don't want to see the DC movies pull that stupid, pointless bullsh*t. I like the Marvel movies. Swear to God, I do. But 80% of them are unnecessary in any way to the "Bigger Story" they've been telling for like ten f*cking years, and watching Superman fight Bizarro and the JLA fighting Starro or some sh*t would be just f*cking brutal, man, when we know they're "saving the good stuff for later". Even if it was good - and it probably would be very good - it would just be a goddamn cocktease.

Don't kid yourself. That would be ass. This is better. The Marvel movies - while good - have taken literally forever to get to the goddamn point already. I'm glad the DC movies are getting down to brass tacks early. F*ck the filler-movie bullsh*t and B-level villains. Been there, done that.

[Candy Kappa]

I really enjoyed that trailer. Doomsday's creature design is okay, but the original design wasn't exactly good or interesting to begin with, heck the containment suit was more fascinating then his actual looks.

[Commenter 42]

Is it me or are there multiple dialects competing for prominence? Everyone seems convinced Eisenberg is doing a gay voice, I hear an intentional speech impediment, the one where 3 comes across as tree, or ffrwee...

Afleck meanwhile, has something odd going for Wayne, and Cavile's American sounds very Brit.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I really enjoyed that trailer. Doomsday's creature design is okay, but the original design wasn't exactly good or interesting to begin with, heck the containment suit was more fascinating then his actual looks.

Yeah, it was a very strange look but I liked the mystery of it. It wasn't a letdown when he was finally revealed outside his containment suit, but it somehow didn't match my imagination either.

I like it okay, but I'm hearing more and more chatter that we've indeed only seen Level One Doomsday, which is nice. I'm expecting to see more bone spurs/weapons and other adaptations and evolution along the way. That's nice, more to look forward to.

Spoiler:

If you freeze-frame at 2:00-2:01, the scene of Batman fighting guys in the desert, those are definitely Para-Demons or something awfully close! This lends credence to the rumor that at least some of the "Nightmare/Dream Sequence" scenes, are from a vision Diana is given from a mystical Oracle, who shows her what will happen to the world if she doesn't help to "Unite The Seven", events which include Superman becoming a tyrant and Darkseid's invasion of Earth, possibly with Superman in his thrall.

Basically, if the Trinity doesn't form and stop Doomsday, and if they don't go on to form the Justice League and stop Darkseid, it's literally Armageddon.

I like that. If those are the stakes, then game on.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Is it me or are there multiple dialects competing for prominence? Everyone seems convinced Eisenberg is doing a gay voice, I hear an intentional speech impediment, the one where 3 comes across as tree, or ffrwee...

Afleck meanwhile, has something odd going for Wayne, and Cavile's American sounds very Brit.

I'unno about "gay", I don't hear that, but it's definitely over-the-top on purpose. It's an odd personal choice on the part of the actor, it seems, because again, the dialog and basic behavior etc. is very much in the vein of John Shea, which was a very good portrayal of Lex, it's really only the voice and the clothes that seem "off" from that. It's the same fake, manipulative scumbag putting on a false face for everyone to hide what a psychotic piece of garbage he is. It's definitely more... flamboyant. But I can tell, it's on purpose. It's not the real Lex. All the main characters wear masks. Diana poses as a socialite. Clark's mask is his glasses. Bruce's mask is literal. And Lex's mask is his "flamboyant hipster douchebag" gimmick. It's a way to go. He's said in the script to have some very dark moments, and that I can't wait to see.

Affleck, to me, sounds kind of sarcastic and weary, I guess. I'unno, I like it. it doesn't sound too dissimilar to Bale's Bruce voice. The Batman voice is way different and a little weird in its own way but I think it's better than Bale's.

Cavill, to me... and this is maybe interesting, maybe not... but one of my favorite things when I was a kid, I had these storybook record albums, like 3 of them, each with like 2-4 Superman audio stories on them, and I used to play those things all day every day until they were all worn out, "flying" around the living room, jumping off the couch and sh*t. Anyways... it finally hit me, that the deep, firm baritone that Cavill is using for Superman is almost exactly like what the guy playing Superman on those old records sounded like. This firm, authoritative voice that wasn't quite aggressive but made it clear he meant business.

One thing I love, unapologetically, is his Clark. The assertive, idealist reporter who tries to make a difference in the world through his real-life work, not a bumbling goofball. That will always be my favorite way to see the character done.

[ZariusTwo]

That was a good movie.

...Why are people saying this was a trailer again?

[Leo656]

If only you knew, how much you don't yet know, my dude.

That was shockingly meaty. But there's more. More, I say! The meat slides right off the bone!

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If only you knew, how much you don't yet know, my dude.

That was shockingly meaty. But there's more. More, I say! The meat slides right off the bone!

I'll hold you to that then...I'm mainly in for the ideology scenes. I loved how the trailer started with a snippet of that.