Official TMNT 2 Discussion

[Bry]

Originally Posted by NinjaPug

I wouldn't go that far considering the first Alice made over $1 billion at the box office.

And trailer views/online hype aren't necessarily indicative of what the box office will be. We all remember "Snakes on a Plane", right?

[DarkLightDragon]

Originally Posted by Bry

And trailer views/online hype aren't necessarily indicative of what the box office will be. We all remember "Snakes on a Plane", right?

Not to mention that views =/= everybody liked what they watched.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I've grown to despise Fred Wolf TMNT for the exact same reason; begrudging tolerance for launching TMNT into the spotlight long ago faded into realization that the franchise would also forever be shackled to those damned idiotic cartoons.

But Leo, I'll say it again: READ THE IDW COMICS. IT'S THE ONLY WORTHWHILE PART OF THE TMNT FRANCHISE GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

If I could fit it in the budget I would. But even then, a comic book that all of ten people read shouldn't be the pat on the f*cking head for every TMNT fan who isn't a child. It's just scraps. So long as the movies and cartoons - which are ALL that matter to the bottom line, make no mistake - "Have to be" goofy and dumb, then TMNT to the mainstream is forever going to be "goofy kids stuff". A comic book won't change that no matter what. The more mainstream adaptations have to be more mature as well, or else it won't make a lick of difference.

I forgot to add, f*ck the 2K3 cartoon, also, which I really love. But it got my hopes up that TMNT might one day grow out of pizza puns and "Cowabunga". It lied to me. It wasn't perfect, but we're never getting anything close to that level of quality ever again. And that infuriates me.

So as much as I love 2K3, f*ck it for giving me false hope.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Because people who AREN'T overgrown little kids deserve to have nice things too. There's a whole ton of depth to the stories and characters in the TMNT universe that are NEVER going to be adequately explored so long as everyone tries to keep dragging the franchise back to 1987. It's not 1987. I'm not a little kid. I've sat through 8000 "goofy" versions of f*cking Ninja Turtles already, I want something with more sophistication and depth, not another cartoon. And I'm not the only one who feels that way.

But you're right. To most of the world, TMNT is nothing but "Simple Things For Simple Minds," and because of that insipid cartoon show it's never going to change. I don't like that and I don't want it to be that way. But, it is what it is. Nobody cares about 2K3. Nobody cares about Mirage, or the 1990 movie. You're right, TMNT doesn't "work" for the majority, unless it's excessively stupid and crammed full of pizza jokes and bad one-liners. It's always been trash in the eyes of the mainstream, thus, trash is what it should stay, because most people are simpletons.

You're right that that's the way it is. But I'll never be happy with it. People who want to see more depth and sophisticated stories in the TMNT universe shouldn't have to just make do with a comic book nobody reads. That isn't fair. You can do a LOT of great things with TMNT, tell a lot of really great stories, and they're never going to, because of that god DAMNED cartoon show that people won't let rot in the past where it belongs.

If they wanted to make a stupid, silly, FW-based TMNT movie, that time was 1991. We SHOULD be in the more "modern, sophisticated" era of TMNT, like what Burton or Nolan did with Batman, treating the franchise seriously and bringing respect to it, in SPITE of all the goofy nonsense that came before. Is it that hard to remember how when Burton was doing Batman, everyone told him "You can't play it straight, it's impossible, it's just goofy junk for kids", and he went ahead and made a movie that's near-universally beloved to this day? All because he REFUSED to be shackled to past mistakes, even if they were popular mistakes.

That's what we should be seeing now with TMNT. Evolution. Not clinging to ancient history that was NEVER very good to begin with. F*ck that goddamn cartoon show, and double-f*ck anyone who thinks THAT is the best version of TMNT that all others should be compared to and based off of. Those people should NOT be setting any kind of standards of taste, I'm sorry.

I used to love the FW TMNT. Used to. Now... I honestly hate it. I HATE it. I hate it for what it represents, that TMNT can never, EVER be more than a joke, something people roll their eyes at and snicker when they find out you're still into it past a certain age. I hate it because of how it keeps the TMNT franchise in a little tiny box in people's minds, when it can be every bit as sophisticated as Batman or Superman or anything else, and people would still like it, as long as it was handled well. I hate it because people think that's the "right" way to do TMNT, and I'm sorry, it's not.

Like I said elsewhere, I think I've outgrown this entire franchise.

Leo, I understand your frustration.

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise isn't living out to its full potential. The Fred Wolf cartoon set the standard for the series. However, the show was mostly comedic in nature, only shifting its tone for the last few seasons. As a result, there are so many adaptations, but only a handful of are taken seriously .

The TMNT franchise can be so much more than that. It doesn't have to have OT influences. It doesn't have to be played for laughs. It doesn't have to have unnecessary fanservice. It just has to be good. But it has to take itself seriously.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

It just has to be good. But it has to take itself seriously.

Eh, somewhat.

Even Mirage is chock full of humor. There's gotta be some fun, no matter how grim the setting is. 4kids' TMNT took itself too seriously a lot of the time & suffered for it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If I could fit it in the budget I would. But even then, a comic book that all of ten people read shouldn't be the pat on the f*cking head for every TMNT fan who isn't a child. It's just scraps. So long as the movies and cartoons - which are ALL that matter to the bottom line, make no mistake - "Have to be" goofy and dumb, then TMNT to the mainstream is forever going to be "goofy kids stuff". A comic book won't change that no matter what. The more mainstream adaptations have to be more mature as well, or else it won't make a lick of difference.

I forgot to add, f*ck the 2K3 cartoon, also, which I really love. But it got my hopes up that TMNT might one day grow out of pizza puns and "Cowabunga". It lied to me. It wasn't perfect, but we're never getting anything close to that level of quality ever again. And that infuriates me.

So as much as I love 2K3, f*ck it for giving me false hope.

At least IDW and 2003, as underrated and unknown as they are, finally gave us SOME respectable TMNT that wasn't Mirage/Image.

Mirage/Image, 4Kids, and IDW; that's my personal TMNT canon.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

Leo, I understand your frustration.

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise isn't living out to its full potential. The Fred Wolf cartoon set the standard for the series. However, the show was mostly comedic in nature, only shifting its tone for the last few seasons. As a result, there are so many adaptations, but only a handful of are taken seriously .

The TMNT franchise can be so much more than that. It doesn't have to have OT influences. It doesn't have to be played for laughs. It doesn't have to have unnecessary fanservice. It just has to be good. But it has to take itself seriously.

I agree with you so hard it makes my teeth grind. "Wasted potential" and "missed opportunities", would be how I sum up the state of TMNT nowadays.

I want more stories about the outcasts trying to fit into society in some small way, just because they have to survive in it, even if nobody wants them to. I want more characters who are heroic in nature because they're generally good and decent, despite the people they defend and co-exist with mostly treating them like monsters. I want to see more of what happens to the trained child assassins who have to find a new direction in life once their one and only life objective of "Kill Shredder" has been accomplished. I'm even interested in seeing the supporting cast, the "normal" human characters, juggling their real lives to make room for these "freaks" they can't let anyone else know about.

I want more of those things and less pizza jokes and slapstick and fart jokes. And I don't think I'm asking for the moon and the stars. Maybe those kinds of TMNT stories are "boring" to most fans but they're really interesting to me, damn it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I agree with you so hard it makes my teeth grind. "Wasted potential" and "missed opportunities", would be how I sum up the state of TMNT nowadays.

I want more stories about the outcasts trying to fit into society in some small way, just because they have to survive in it, even if nobody wants them to. I want more characters who are heroic in nature because they're generally good and decent, despite the people they defend and co-exist with mostly treating them like monsters. I want to see more of what happens to the trained child assassins who have to find a new direction in life once their one and only life objective of "Kill Shredder" has been accomplished. I'm even interested in seeing the supporting cast, the "normal" human characters, juggling their real lives to make room for these "freaks" they can't let anyone else know about.

I want more of those things and less pizza jokes and slapstick and fart jokes. And I don't think I'm asking for the moon and the stars. Maybe those kinds of TMNT stories are "boring" to most fans but they're really interesting to me, damn it.

I'm about to log off and go read "City at War" again, dammit.

[Leo656]

Frankly, even I'm surprised I don't like Mirage more than I do. It's a bit dry, for me. I feel like the 1990 film took the basic Mirage setting and gave it just enough of the "more familiar" TMNT humor that people came to expect, and that was a good balance. I don't think you need to go too far in either other direction.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I'm about to log off and go read "City at War" again, dammit.

Exactly.

"City at War" is where this franchise peaks for me.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Frankly, even I'm surprised I don't like Mirage more than I do. It's a bit dry, for me. I feel like the 1990 film took the basic Mirage setting and gave it just enough of the "more familiar" TMNT humor that people came to expect, and that was a good balance. I don't think you need to go too far in either other direction.

I like Mirage when it was good. But when Mirage is bad, it's unreadable. As in, April O'Neil turned into a cockroach and attending cockroach orgies unreadable.

Fortunately, the canon Mirage Volume 1, Volume 2, most of Image Volume 3, and some of Volume 4 are good if not great.

[Bry]

I know I've said this before, at great detail... but dear god, imagine "City at War" as the capper to a proper TMNT movie trilogy?

In a better world, maybe...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Bry

I know I've said this before, at great detail... but dear god, imagine "City at War" as the capper to a proper TMNT movie trilogy?

In a better world, maybe...

In 20 years, maybe. Or 50.

[Leo656]

I don't want to imagine it, because then I'd have to cry myself to sleep every night on account of they're never going near anything like that again.

CKD: I don't like Image so we'll agree to disagree there. To be fair it's been a while. But I was never in love with it.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

In 20 years, maybe. Or 50.

Even if it takes 50, I will shuffle my way to the theatre with my walker on opening night.

I'm not hopeful things will improve any time soon. All I can do is cross my fingers that this iteration will dwindle financially before too long and Paramount smartens up when they get cracking on the next reboot. Not saying it's likely, but it's a nice thought.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I don't want to imagine it, because then I'd have to cry myself to sleep every night on account of they're never going near anything like that again.

CKD: I don't like Image so we'll agree to disagree there. To be fair it's been a while. But I was never in love with it.

Image did right by Raph and Mikey. Leo and Donnie, however, not so much. (To be fair, they get a lot of good development in V's 1, 2, and 4.)

[Leo656]

There's a good chance I wasn't being fair with the Image material when I first looked at it. At the time Image got the franchise, I loathed them for almost single-handedly ruining the comic book industry in the 90s, so seeing my all-time least-favorite comic book company get the license for one of my favorite properties was not something I approved of, so while I've read most of it more than once and still didn't like it, I did go into it with my dukes up to begin with, I'll admit. At the time, the only thing I could think of that could have been worse, would have been someone like Nick getting their hands on it.

Looks like I was worried too much about the wrong thing in that whole equation. The Image Comics run came and went in a blink, but Nick and Viacom will be running pizza jokes into the ground and just plain screwing up TMNT for all eternity.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

There's a good chance I wasn't being fair with the Image material when I first looked at it. At the time Image got the franchise, I loathed them for almost single-handedly ruining the comic book industry in the 90s, so seeing my all-time least-favorite comic book company get the license for one of my favorite properties was not something I approved of, so while I've read most of it more than once and still didn't like it, I did go into it with my dukes up to begin with, I'll admit. At the time, the only thing I could think of that could have been worse, would have been someone like Nick getting their hands on it.

Looks like I was worried too much about the wrong thing in that whole equation. The Image Comics run came and went in a blink, but Nick and Viacom will be running pizza jokes into the ground and just plain screwing up TMNT for all eternity.

Nick had some potential, and I like some of the new mutants all right. But the whole Apritello thing was ill-conceived, the writers' refusal to do justice to their few continuing storylines of any consequence is insulting, and just SO MANY stupid kiddie jokes.

Image did some pretty bizarre things early on, cyborg-izing Donnie and turning Splinter into a giant bat, but they did more to advance Raphael and Michelangelo as characters than their original creators or anyone else ever did before or since.

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Looks like I was worried too much about the wrong thing in that whole equation. The Image Comics run came and went in a blink, but Nick and Viacom will be running pizza jokes into the ground and just plain screwing up TMNT for all eternity.

Not only that. They are creating new problems, which will affect the whole franchise.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

Not only that. They are creating new problems, which will affect the whole franchise.

Unfortunately, Papenbrook (cool new name BTW), I think you're right. I'm afraid Nick will become as much a public definition of TMNT as Fred Wolf... and with much of the same public perspective. Kiddie.