Official TMNT 2 Trailer Discussion

[d_osborn]

Eh, I'm cool with the level of realism. It matches the tone of the movie. It's a cartoony kid's movie based on the Fred Wolf cartoon. It's pretty much what I expected it to be. Much like when PD/Bay announced they were doing the first movie. You know what it's going to be. It wasn't exactly a shocker.

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's like getting dog sh*t on your shoe and trying to scrape it off, and you're able to get half of it but the rest is just too caked in there. So you now only have half a dog turd on your shoe. That's... better? Mathematically, yes, realistically, no, not really. You're still tracking sh*t everywhere.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is gold! I'm going to start using chunks of your comments in daily conversation.

[Foombamaroom]

The CGI in the second movie isn't going to look good because they keep COMPLETELY CGING the shots.

Whenever the Turtles are in an actual location, the CGI blends in REALLY well. It looks hard/rough/heavy and that's how it should look.

However, scenes like the Splinter vs. Shredder scene, snow-chase scene, and parts of the ending fight with Shredder where you have complete CGI rather than filming on location (snow chase I somewhat understand), they look like CRAP. They've got NO WEIGHT whatsoever, they've got no texture to them (they look so damn smooth). and the backgrounds aren't even that good. It's the same thing here, except now the Turtles don't even look good in the organic environments.

The water-shot wasn't half-bad, and anything metallic looks pretty good (but I've heard metal is one of the easier things to CG.). Other than that, nope. I'm expecting the CGI to be a 'bit' better, but nothing major. Mostly like the difference between the trailers for The Amazing Spider-Man 2 and the actual thing itself: it's better than before, but compared to the technology they have to actually make good CGI, nope.

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

If you were making sense, We could have a discussion. Man, I know the actual process to get a shot to final, do you?
I'll be more clear, and see if we can't talk enough shop to square it all:

A few years ago, the decision to move away from brute force and monte-carlo algorithms was instituted. as a direct result of that render times were reduced, but at a cost to the quality of the render...but that change was negligible in the face of the hard financial costs to the studio.
Am I making sense yet? This is the part of the process that won't change, therefore the quality of the look of the shot will not improve.

They WILL play with the comp more. They will adjust some of the lighting elements in an attempt to better integrate the character, but as they move across the 2000 shots, each one will only get so much time. The bulk of the changes and polishing that the internet know it alls are alluding too, are predominantly changes to expressions, or camera positioning, etc. They can be anything, EXCEPT, as leo is pointing out, the integration. That's a render issue, one that does not change from vendor to vendor. Everyone has their own system, as you know, so the shots don't always match. each vendor may or may not have to construct their own assets, including the featured characters. The list goes on and on...

but yeah, if you want, lets talk common knowledge and how the only people in chat rooms are TROLLs who know nothing about the business.

Calm down. You're kinda grasping at straws here, man. I never said the render engine, mechanics or animation would change. People were complaining about the quality of the renders. That stuff improves throughout production. You honestly sounded surprised when I mentioned it.

You might actually know more about this stuff than I do! I never claimed to be an expert, but I know my way around this stuff more than the average bear. I own a production company and design firm and hire a variety of artists to generate content, including lots of 3D and comping. Hell, if you're good, send me your reel.

You come across like a very angry person. Smile-- we're talking nerdy movie stuff here.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by d_osborn

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is gold! I'm going to start using chunks of your comments in daily conversation.

The current deal is you can rent zingers at a rate of 75 cents per witty rejoinder. Them's the breaks, guy, my wife likes to eat a lotta f*ckin' Chinese food.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by d_osborn

Eh, I'm cool with the level of realism.

And there is is man! The level of realism? Come on.
Now who'd trolling!

Lawd!

[Foombamaroom]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The current deal is you can rent zingers at a rate of 75 cents per witty rejoinder. Them's the breaks, guy, my wife likes to eat a lotta f*ckin' Chinese food.

Is there a frequent customer discount?

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

And there is is man! The level of realism? Come on.
Now who'd trolling!

Lawd!

HA! I already said it felt like I was trolling in here trying to be somewhat positive on the subject! I AM THE TROLL. It's like the end of I Am Legend.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Foombamaroom

Is there a frequent customer discount?

It's already a Frequent Customer Discount. My quips are like Lay's potato chips; It's physically impossible to stop at just one, because they mix heroin in with the salt. Heroin in the salt, man. That's how they get ya. They don't want you to know that's how they get ya, but trust me... that's how they get ya.

...What was the question?

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by d_osborn

You come across like a very angry person. Smile-- we're talking nerdy movie stuff here.

Dude it's not anger, it's passion. I'm calm as a hindu cow.

If you own a production company - and I believe you do, you should know that renders don't "improve" over the corse of production, which is to say, the math that the computer is doing, isn't getting better. It's the same from day one to the end.

Yes, there are a number of moving parts - but will the "reality" increase? Not likely.

The other reason it won't, is because we figured out that the bar for what an audience will accept, is set far lower that the industry was aiming just 5 years ago.

Personally, I think it's sad that we aren't endeavoring to do more these days, instead of more for less.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I know, but round here, no one really appreciates just how bad the CG looks. They don't get it anymore.

But it's like I said, even SWTFA had god awful CG. The machine is broken.

The CG was the first thing I zeroed in on when I watched the trailer the first time. I honestly had to watch the trailer again because I was so disgusted with the CG that I wasn't paying attention the first time.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Zak The Neutrino

The CG was the first thing I zeroed in on when I watched the trailer the first time. I honestly had to watch the trailer again because I was so disgusted with the CG that I wasn't paying attention the first time.

We, it's good to see some people see it. It's the comments of "looks good enough to me" that drive me crazy.

[Leo656]

Well, I did notice at some point in recent years a lot of people became more accepting of bad CGI under the "it's all fake anyway" blanket dismissal.

Why try? I guess that's the moral. Why try, if nobody really cares? I think people should care, personally. I think things usually get better, the more people care. We're in a "settling for less" phase, as far as our pop culture entertainment, all the way across the board. Everybody seems just fine with the minimal amount of effort.

I think that's wacky, but whattyagonnado.

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

you should know that renders don't "improve" over the corse of production, which is to say, the math that the computer is doing, isn't getting better. It's the same from day one to the end.

I never mentioned renders improving. Shots are continuously revised throughout the process. Details are added, lighting, textures improved, animations/backgrounds/comping/keying/grading tweaked... all sorts of stuff. That's what I was mentioning with the discussion of the lack of quality in the VFX shots. Entire shots improving, not just the realism of the character animation. I'm not sure where you got that.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Well, I did notice at some point in recent years a lot of people became more accepting of bad CGI under the "it's all fake anyway" blanket dismissal.

I've noticed the complete opposite. I hang out with more movie aficionado-types, though. It seems people are in an uproar over bad CG now more than ever. I loved seeing some practical stuff in TFA over the CGI party of the prequels. Make no mistake-- I'm not here praising the CGI industry. I think it can be used to great success, and the capabilities are amazing, but yeah... it's an overdone, underpaid, rushed, dirty assembly line now. There's still some great stuff out there, though.

There is a lot of discussion of some sort of looming new studio implosion, similar to the big studio system crumbling in the 50s and 60s. I wanna say even Spielberg did a big article or interview about it. Mega budget movies falling to the side for lower budget projects. With the availability of cinema-quality camera gear and easy post-production/basic FX, and streaming distribution, I wouldn't be shocked to see some new wave of lower budget genre films in the next few years. The new Blackmagic 4.6K Mini Ursa is putting near Alexa-quality shots in hands for, what... $5K?

[Powder]

Originally Posted by d_osborn

Eh, I'm cool with the level of realism. It matches the tone of the movie. It's a cartoony kid's movie based on the Fred Wolf cartoon. It's pretty much what I expected it to be. Much like when PD/Bay announced they were doing the first movie. You know what it's going to be. It wasn't exactly a shocker.

Yeah but there's realism in the context of scientific laws as well as tone or believability, & there's realism in the context of "these motherf*ckers look like they're from a video game".

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Leo656

whattyagonnado.

I got out. VR is way cooler, and way more interesting.

I've just never been someone who though good enough was an answer to anything. Do or do not MF.

Originally Posted by d_osborn

I never mentioned renders improving. Shots are continuously revised throughout the process. Details are added, lighting, textures improved, animations/backgrounds/comping/keying/grading tweaked... all sorts of stuff. That's what I was mentioning with the discussion of the lack of quality in the VFX shots. Entire shots improving, not just the realism of the character animation. I'm not sure where you got that. .......Make no mistake-- I'm not here praising the CGI industry. I think it can be used to great success, and the capabilities are amazing, but yeah... it's an overdone, underpaid, rushed, dirty assembly line now. There's still some great stuff out there, though.

I think you're mistaking the brevity of my statements for ignorance. I know what a pipeline is. trust.
I'm saying that you can do all of those things, but if your render engine SUCKS, it ALL sucks.
Again, I don't know what you're standards are, but the last one looked phoney as hell. The grade was terrible. The textures, awful. Photo-real ain't happening here, because they're too cheap to do it.

Anyway, some how I've allowed this to become me justifying that **** is actually ****. That was dumb. If you think it a'int ****, or that 3% change over six months is cause for pause - rock on brotherman.
Personally, I hope Cameron helps revitalize CG with the next Avatar films - he's the only one who seems to care enough to do it.

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Powder

Yeah but there's realism in the context of scientific laws as well as tone or believability, & there's realism in the context of "these motherf*ckers look like they're from a video game".

I'm totally fine with the look. My TMNT movie never happened. I care about the PD series as much as I do TNM. Not at all. It really doesn't factor in. I'm fine with what they're doing! I'm not going to be angry about it. It totally looks like a video game--I agree! I'll have a fun night of it when it hits, just out of sheer curiosity... that'll be it.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I know what a pipeline is.
I'm saying that you can do all of those things, but if your render engine SUCKS, it ALL sucks.

Yeah, we're talking about completely different things. I was a bit thrown that you didn't seem to understand something as basic as shot revisions.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Again, I don't know what you're standards are, but the last one looked phoney as hell.

If it was something I was super passionate about, then yeah, I would have much higher standards on PD TMNT. I think it looked fine for what it was. I knew how it woudl be when PD was announced. A lower budget Transformers. I stopped giving a hoot once I got over the initial disappointment.

[Powder]

I'm not trying to change your line of thinking, man. I'm just clarifying what I meant in saying they won't look any more realistic between now & then.

& my anger is reserved for other trivial things, like when idiots at the drive-thru window can't get me the right condiment after going over it 3 times in a 30 second exchange.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by d_osborn

I'm totally fine with the look. My TMNT movie never happened. I care about the PD series as much as I do TNM. Not at all. It really doesn't factor in. I'm fine with what they're doing! I'm not going to be angry about it. It totally looks like a video game--I agree! I'll have a fun night of it when it hits, just out of sheer curiosity... that'll be it.

WAIT A MINUTE...

So why you playing this whole time? Dude...what the hell?

[d_osborn]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

WAIT A MINUTE...

So why you playing this whole time? Dude...what the hell?

Haha, no playing here, man! I'm not pro-PD at all! I never claimed to like it. I think they made a dookie sandwich (language filters, right?!), but I still enjoyed it. It was stupid fun. I had stupid fun. Stupid fun was had. I also enjoy watching people sing Neil Diamond karaoke. I'm sure I'll enjoy the new movie. I'll defend the stuff I dug, though. I'll defend the artists that were just drawing and designing what they were contracted and directed to do. I guess in the black and white, pro vs hate forum we have here, I'm the gray dude hanging out right in the middle, enjoying the show.

[Leolead]

What would change you guys mind about the series? Like, what would it take?