Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed?

[Groverman62]

I should say this first, I never watched the 80s show, it was before my time so I cant agree or disagree with anyone on how good or bad it is. But I have noticed a lot of resentment towards it.

People dislike the impact its had and think it has too much hold over the franchise today. And to me thats not really something for it to be held responsible for. Thats the fault of the people that the franchise is currently in the hands of.

What does everyone else think?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The blame is not at all unfair.

It both created the franchise's lasting staying power and perpetual public perception, while at the same time forever hobbling it by handcuffing it to the cowabunga-calling pizza-munching groovy goofy cartoon concepts.

[mikey22]

if they kept it like season 1 and season 2 it would have been fine.


if it wasnt for the success of the 80s toon there would have been no 90 movie though so you kind of needed it.

but the lack of weapon usage and just throwing people around in every episode was poor.

[Groverman62]

What I mean say is, the Fred Wolf isnt making people follow its example. The people that are working on the franchise now can always decide to not go in that direction and do something different

[Wesley]

No, I think the criticism is fair. Season one was great even though it had its own problems. The cartoon got dumbed down in the later seasons, especially in the mid seasons like four and five when it became a parody of itself. Also, I didn't like that the violence was toned down due to censorship.

The show isn't as good as I remembered it. There are annoying catchphrases and too many pizza jokes. It was good for its time, as I didn't know about the comics and there was no other tmnt cartoon to compare it to back then, but parts of the show haven't aged well. I prefer the 2003 cartoon, as it had better characterisation and story arcs and was based on the original Mirage Comics.

I still like the OT, though, as it contains my favourite version of characters such as Rat King, Learherhead, Raphael and Shredder. The banter between Shredder and Krang was entertaining to watch and the pop culture references were good. There were some good story arcs as well in seasons like eight and ten.

[pferreira]

Fans of the Mirage comic get annoyed that what the general public know the Turtles for is the Fred Wolf cartoon, not the original comics which were much more complex and gritty in writing. There's a tendency by some people to label the FW show inferior although I would argue against that being the case. The FW show was a lot more clever than people feel it is and it's obviously had more of an impact in that whenever people remember the Turtles they remember the 80s cartoon iteration. This is what makes fans of the later animated shows even more annoyed.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by pferreira

Fans of the Mirage comic get annoyed that what the general public know the Turtles for is the Fred Wolf cartoon, not the original comics which were much more complex and gritty in writing. There's a tendency by some people to label the FW show inferior although I would argue against that being the case. The FW show was a lot more clever than people feel it is and it's obviously had more of an impact in that whenever people remember the Turtles they remember the 80s cartoon iteration. This is what makes fans of the later animated shows even more annoyed.

To be honest, When the 80s cartoon came out, and then discovering it was based on the mirage comics, I tried to get into the Mirage comics, but I wasn't feeling them, The original comics were too dark and weren't like the show, then I found the archie series comics, which were more to my liking, it took the 80s cartoon and went on a different direction.

The Fred Wolf will always hold a special place in my heart, any incarnation of TMNT borrows some elements from it, be in the Nick TV series, IDW comics, or new movie.

[neatoman]

It is a bit annoying that a cartoon that ended twenty years ago still overshadows the more interesting and/or more recent material, especially when said cartoon is in terrible quality. The absurd lack of similarity to the comic it's based on is just icing on the cake.

[Prowler]

Like people have said numerous times before, the show is pretty old, so people should just let it go already or at least watch some episodes without the nostalgia goggles on. Doesn't help the fact that it's pretty different from the source material and a fairly dumbed down and kiddified version of it, which makes your average joe view the franchise as something for pathetic manchildren while liking Batman or Spider-Man is "cool".

[Candy Kappa]

It was a "necessary evil", it made the franchise big in the 90's. Without the FW show we'd probably just have the Mirage comics series, the Pen & paper tabletop game and a movie.

Originally Posted by mikey22

if it wasnt for the success of the 80s toon there would have been no 90 movie though so you kind of needed it.

iirc the movie was already in production before the show got overly popular, as the FW elements that are in the movie was added later to the script.

[IndigoErth]

It is what it is and did it's own important job of taking the Turtles mainstream, even if it wasn't via the most favorable route to some. But so many older fans would never even have discovered or gotten into TMNT if it were not for that show. I was too young for the comics, seeing as I had only just turned five when the first was published, but the cartoon targeted to my age group, well that did the job. But it comes full circle, I'd later know about everything else. And a lot that came after does kind of owe it to that first series for making the TMNT popular enough in the first place for people to be interested in continuing to sell them to the public in other ways.

The hold the original has over it... well, you've got an adult generation now who's behind some (a lot) who's main experience with TMNT was through that show. AND when it comes to random merchandise, particularly clothing, there is also the "vintage" factor that most other stuff isn't old enough to tap into yet. It would be nice if Mirage could get in on that more too though. But... marketing. The average, casual nostalgic of course is less aware of it, if at all.

[plastroncafe]

It does not get unfairly blamed.
It does not get unfairly lauded, either.

The original Mirage book started as a joke.
The original Cartoon started as a toy commercial.
Thems just the brass tacks of the matter.

[Shred87]

I would say the blame is a little much.... Without the cartoon we may not even have a franchise to bicker about... We're just waiting for someone to give a grittier movie franchise and it isn't happening anytime soon. Batman was Adam West for a generation and you can see where that is now. Michael Bay was the wrong guy for the job for those who favor the mirage story. The cartoon put the franchise on the map.

[CyberCubed]

This thread should be locked. The IDW comic is heavily based on the original cartoon and people love it, so it goes to show you in the hands of good writers and OT elements are done well.

[Tora]

Say what you want about the 87 show but without it the comic series likely would have died out by the late 80's early 90's and the creators would have moved on to other things. The best case scenario is that the OG Comics would have survived as a Cult series and maybe picked up by DC or Marvel at some point in the early to mid 90's.

So Yeah no 87 Toon/Toyline no Mega Franchise.

[plastroncafe]

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

Weren't sales of the Mirage comic already declining after the first 11 issues? I'm not sure if Mirage TMNT would have made it past Return to New York. That might have functioned as the finale for the whole series.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

It was a "necessary evil", it made the franchise big in the 90's. Without the FW show we'd probably just have the Mirage comics series, the Pen & paper tabletop game and a movie.

Yep, I would never have found out about tmnt or have an interest in watching the later shows if it wasn't for the 1987 cartoon. I was 3 or 4 when I first started watching the cartoon in the early 90s, so it was good for its time back then, as I was part of the target demographic. The OT was a good introduction for kids to tmnt similar to the way James Bond Jr was to James Bond.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.

I thought Marvel wanted to buy the Turtles, but E&L turned them down by being Kirby fanboys and artistic integrity or something. With Marvel not having a creator-owned rules, they would have lost the entire property of sold to Marvel.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

I thought Marvel wanted to buy the Turtles, but E&L turned them down by being Kirby fanboys and artistic integrity or something. With Marvel not having a creator-owned rules, they would have lost the entire property of sold to Marvel.

That is entirely possible.
Memory, it seems....did not serve.