Official TMNT 2 Trailer #2 Discussion

[Nerdatello]

Originally Posted by SwiftNinjaFox

I still think the book nonsense could be "saved" by revealing it wasn't that he learned from the book so much as reading through it triggered past life memories and go with IDW's version.

This has always been their backstory in my head when I watch the 2014 movie. Until they outright say this isn't the case, it will remain head-cannon for me.

[sethmartin]

Originally Posted by Nerdatello

This has always been their backstory in my head when I watch the 2014 movie. Until they outright say this isn't the case, it will remain head-cannon for me.

They pretty much do. Splinter finds the book and says "And then, I found a way. First, I would teach myself the ancient art of ninjutsu." There is no mention of a past life or anything that would even suggest it. He even says "I don't remember a time before living in that laboratory."

[IndigoErth]

What ever helps it go down better - after foolishly deciding to try it - and create less indigestion.

Personally I prefer Splinter was Yoshi (current life), which sadly I can't pretend that happened. At best, I like to believe that human DNA was involved with the mutagen experiments (to explain those designs), via a lab tech named Yoshi who's an expert martial artist on the side...

Spoiler:

The other lie I tell myself is that the movie lied about their age OR Splinter did in an effort to continue to keep them willingly trapped down there. Seeing as how they appear to be grown rather than teens other than Mikey's personality/behavior.

[Nerdatello]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

1.) Splinter may not remember being Yoshi consciously, but it's there subconsciously. Remember he was wearing Japanese clothes BEFORE he found the book, then he was able to read the Japanese characters in the book while 'teaching himself' Ninjitsu. It would make far more sense if he and his sons were subconsciously remembering the moves, rather than learning them from scratch.

Took the thoughts right out of my head.

Don't get me wrong, watching the original 1990 movie in the theater was my first exposure to the Turtles, and as such I've always thought of Splinter as Yoshi's pet rat as the "true" origin. But I'm not going to allow a different interpretation ruin what is otherwise a movie I really enjoy.

Maybe it's just because I'm also a huge Batman fan, and so I'm used to there being all kinds of weird interpretations of my favorite superheroes. All are valid interpretations, some I just like more than others.

EDIT:
It's kind of funny, when I first saw the 2014 movie, I had been reading the current comic series pretty regularly, so when I left the theater, I would've sworn they had the reincarnation as part of the origin. It wasn't until the second viewing that I realized I had connected dots in my head that I didn't actually see on-screen.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Nerdatello

It's kind of funny, when I first saw the 2014 movie, I had been reading the current comic series pretty regularly, so when I left the theater, I would've sworn they had the reincarnation as part of the origin. It wasn't until the second viewing that I realized I had connected dots in my head that I didn't actually see on-screen.

I had the exact same experience myself.

[sethmartin]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I don't really love these movies either, but yes Splinter could still be the reincarnation of Yoshi here.

1.) Splinter may not remember being Yoshi consciously, but it's there subconsciously. Remember he was wearing Japanese clothes BEFORE he found the book, then he was able to read the Japanese characters in the book while 'teaching himself' Ninjitsu. It would make far more sense if he and his sons were subconsciously remembering the moves, rather than learning them from scratch.

2.) Who says he was telling April the whole story? She's already in disbelief her former pet rat and turtles are now bipedal walking and talking like people. You think splinter is going to pile 'We're the reincarnation of a ninja master and his four murdered sons' on top of that?

Yeah I think they could probably write it in but I don't think that was their intention. Splinter also told April that her father died in the fire but then we find out later that Eric Sacks shot him. It was all so confusing.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Bry

I mean... marginally.

https://i.imgsafe.org/c629b03.jpg

No marginally about it. Full improvement.

PD's Turtles are the ugliest of the garbage pail kids. I consider these designs to be the equivalent of Turtle blackface.

YES, I did go there. All the way there.


If they add in reincarnation, I will find a way to set fire to Michael Bay's eyebrows.

[slingtheory]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I don't really love these movies either, but yes Splinter could still be the reincarnation of Yoshi here.

1.) Splinter may not remember being Yoshi consciously, but it's there subconsciously. Remember he was wearing Japanese clothes BEFORE he found the book, then he was able to read the Japanese characters in the book while 'teaching himself' Ninjitsu. It would make far more sense if he and his sons were subconsciously remembering the moves, rather than learning them from scratch.

2.) Who says he was telling April the whole story? She's already in disbelief her former pet rat and turtles are now bipedal walking and talking like people. You think splinter is going to pile 'We're the reincarnation of a ninja master and his four murdered sons' on top of that?

No offense but seems to me you're trying too hard to explain away something the creative team didn't care enough to worry about. There is no reincarnation in that movie, there is no hamato Yoshi, because the producers writers and director didn't see splinters back story as an important part of the story they wanted to tell

[sethmartin]

Originally Posted by slingtheory

No offense but seems to me you're trying too hard to explain away something the creative team didn't care enough to worry about. There is no reincarnation in that movie, there is no hamato Yoshi, because the producers writers and director didn't see splinters back story as an important part of the story they wanted to tell

They addressed it once when asked and said that they felt the Yoshi, Saki, Tang Shen storyline was too complicated for children to understand. I call BS because I understood it perfectly when I was a kid and the first movie came out. Also Yoshi has been part of every single incarnation of the Turtles in some form or fashion.
Without the Japanese tie in, you just have four turtles doing ninjutsu for some reason and a rat pretending to be Japanese. It made no sense and I doubt they will elaborate on it in future movies. They will probably just continue with a new story and not even reference the origin again.

[Cryomancer]

I got the impression that the 2014 movie had intended to tell us that the mutations made them all really good at learning things quickly or something but never actually did so. I feel like there were a couple of scenes that gave me this impression but I can't remember them now because the movie is so damn forgettable.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Cryomancer

I got the impression that the 2014 movie had intended to tell us that the mutations made them all really good at learning things quickly or something but never actually did so. I feel like there were a couple of scenes that gave me this impression but I can't remember them now because the movie is so damn forgettable.

Yeah, there was some storyboards floating around where they showed a pre-mutation Splinter being injected with something and after observing a Samurai/martial-arts movie he fights off other regular rats in the lab cage.

It was probably 1 of the 3 different movies they filmed before moshing them into one movie.

Which would have been an interesting take even if the movie itself would still be a disaster, and it would easily explain why a rat could learn or remember martial-arts moves before being mutated, if the mutagen could invoke some muscle memory by just observing tasks.

[DioLeo451]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

No marginally about it. Full improvement.

PD's Turtles are the ugliest of the garbage pail kids. I consider these designs to be the equivalent of Turtle blackface.

YES, I did go there. All the way there.


If they add in reincarnation, I will find a way to set fire to Michael Bay's eyebrows.

Wow just wow

[Sabacooza]

I see where Commenter is coming from. It's a fake insulting version of the real deal.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by sethmartin

They addressed it once when asked and said that they felt the Yoshi, Saki, Tang Shen storyline was too complicated for children to understand. I call BS because I understood it perfectly when I was a kid and the first movie came out.

Yeah, lousy excuse. As a kid I was more confused about the first film over why Splinter wasn't Yoshi, and likewise today's young fans already understand at least that version from the series that already had the whole rivalry, etc. Even if any kids are confused, who cares, they'll get it someday, just like many of us eventually understood 1990's origin. Let the kids who remain fans have something to discover about it later.

[slingtheory]

Originally Posted by sethmartin

They addressed it once when asked and said that they felt the Yoshi, Saki, Tang Shen storyline was too complicated for children to understand. I call BS because I understood it perfectly when I was a kid and the first movie came out. Also Yoshi has been part of every single incarnation of the Turtles in some form or fashion.
Without the Japanese tie in, you just have four turtles doing ninjutsu for some reason and a rat pretending to be Japanese. It made no sense and I doubt they will elaborate on it in future movies. They will probably just continue with a new story and not even reference the origin again.

I remember that interview and I remember thinking theres no way anybody could think an origin story that has been accepted for 30 years could be too complicated for modern movie audiences. I thought it was much more likely it just didn't fit whatever re-imagined version they came up with. I never wouldve thought they would cut out Yoshi completely though since every telling of the origin hinges on him in some way or another. Like you said with out him the story loses so much of its reasoning and motivations. There's no in universe reason for things to happen in this series other than that's the way it is everywhere else. That's a pretty crappy way to make a film adaptation I'm my opinion

[IndigoErth]

Just shoehorn him in there, the origin can't get any more stupid at this point anyhow.



Felt inspired to come up with a thing to shove him in there and try to make sense of various elements, so I'll just drop it in here for the heck of it:

Spoiler:

Okay, so, they already knew the mutagen had mutagenetic properties (I mean, why else would you call it that anyway) and in previous experiments with a similar ooze some years prior to Movie 1 they had mutated a guy named Yoshi (totally against his will and rumored that his selection was done in retaliation) into a rat. Just a regular old rat, for the most part.

The only thing separating him from any other rat now was that his little rat mind still retained many of the memories and knowledge from his human life, but he was now a man trapped in a rat's body and constrained to the typical behavior of a rat.

Now, turning him into a regular rat by all appearances was actually not their intention. In an effort to create a 'cure' they simply wanted to mutate him with the health resistance of a rat, but the use of the DNA had unintended side effects. In a sick twist, they experimented on him further, keeping him as a lab animal. They used him in an effort to come up with new mutagen formulas that might have the reverse affect and bring the human back, while still simultaneously searching for their 'cure' to be used later for malicious purposes.

After a number of failures over the next couple of years they started turning to other lab animals as well, continuously focusing more on the 'cure' and less on correcting the mistake made with Yoshi. They'd become indifferent to his situation since the investigation into his disappearance had gradually fallen silent and all those involved cunningly stayed in the clear.

As prior formulas never proved to have any humanizing ability they left its inclusion in the mutagen untouched so as not to risk disturbing the progress into the 'cure' element of it.

Shortly before the fire, during which Yoshi and four turtles had mysteriously disappeared, they'd been injected with a new version of the formula. The elements of the mutagen previously intended to make Yoshi human again interacted with new elements in the formula intended for the 'cure' aspect. Working slowly on a cellular level it took it a period of time to take hold of Yoshi and the turtles, but once it had fully affected their entire systems it caused a rapid mutation into a humanoid form, though still failing to return Yoshi, now nicknamed Splinter, to human. As their first and only mutation, unlike Spinter, the turtles received a somewhat more humanizing affect than he did.

Several years later, Splinter comes across a book about Ninjutsu, written in his native language. Aging and long out of practice, he had never considered a rat's body to be of any use to what was once a passion and something he had been highly skilled at. He had long ago mentally put away everything that was once a part of his life as a human man. But the book intrigues him, causing a longing for the life he used to live and he begins considering the pros and cons of trying to regain a part of it as a humanoid rat. And more-so he realizes that if he can retrain himself, he can pass it on as a tool of self defense for his sons.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza

I see where Commenter is coming from. It's a fake insulting version of the real deal.

You win 100% of my love today.

[Sabacooza]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

You win 100% of my love today.

That's cool seeing as how I'm terrible at winning stuff.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

You win 100% of my love today.

http://justpinthis.com/wp-content/up...7956-thumb.gif

I'll get the towels.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by sethmartin

They addressed it once when asked and said that they felt the Yoshi, Saki, Tang Shen storyline was too complicated for children to understand. I call BS because I understood it perfectly when I was a kid and the first movie came out. Also Yoshi has been part of every single incarnation of the Turtles in some form or fashion.

Exactly. In one form or another, it's been a part of every children's cartoon made of the property yet, and each of them has managed to establish that foundation and move on with the story pretty quickly. Nobody's ever been confused by it and nobody's ever found it "too complicated". Not being able to make that work is laziness or incompetence. (Or both.)

Originally Posted by slingtheory

I never wouldve thought they would cut out Yoshi completely though since every telling of the origin hinges on him in some way or another. Like you said with out him the story loses so much of its reasoning and motivations. There's no in universe reason for things to happen in this series other than that's the way it is everywhere else. That's a pretty crappy way to make a film adaptation I'm my opinion

That's pretty much what that movie did as a whole -- there was no reasoning, no clear motivation, and no reason to like any of the characters beyond the producers knowing people already liked them from previous, better versions of the property. They didn't do the work, they just coasted on nostalgia and the fans' good will.