4 year old child falls into gorilla habitat

[snake]

Looks like it's a "Nihilistic racism animal rights debate" episode again

[plastroncafe]

Oh crap, you've got me. I'm so glad you're here to keep me in check.

But you're not wrong, self-awareness isn't only defined by the use and development of symbolic language. There's the Mirror Test among others. If you have links for those as well as the previous citation, I'd love to read them. It's been quite literally over a decade since I've studied Human Uniqueness, and I'm kind of rusty.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Oh crap, you've got me. I'm so glad you're here to keep me in check.

But you're not wrong, self-awareness isn't only defined by the use and development of symbolic language. There's the Mirror Test among others. If you have links for those as well as the previous citation, I'd love to read them. It's been quite literally over a decade since I've studied Human Uniqueness, and I'm kind of rusty.

Just dripping with hatred aren't we.

We both have Google, so have at it. I'm not your lap dog peanut. Perhaps I should send you looking for videos that thwart my argument instead?

Maybe you're out of touch with where we are today, in our understanding of non-human primate behavior. Maybe i'm not an expert either; so perhaps we could just ask ourselves, what's the cost of giving our very close relatives, a little more respect? Does it really affect you? could it maybe benefit them, and their lives?

I get it, you feel superior, more educated, and you absolutely have me dead to rights on my grammar and sentence structure. The school I went to wasn't in the "right" part of town, guess our schools just weren't as good as yours.
Bully for you; but you're really myopic in your thinking. All that disdain for what?

It's unfortunate you're so tightly wound little bird, I'm sure theres a fun person in there somewhere, beneath that hair shirt and woolen robes. I bet she's just dying to get out.

[plastroncafe]

Dripping with hatred?
Someone's got an over-inflated sense of self.

Really I'm just curious if you've got actual facts to back up your philosophical leanings, or if it's all just bluster.
It's one thing to go on a forum and talk about how all animals are equal, and that some animals are more equal than others, it's another thing to actually do something about it.

You mention that the gorilla in question was a kid because it was 17, but that's actually almost half it's life span. Maybe a little less than half, because there's usually less predation in a zoo environment, less food insecurity, better health care.

Where as the kid was maybe 4% through with his life, taking into account his life expectancy rounds around 72 years.

Okay, so here's the situation, the 4 year old has trespassed onto the property of a 36 year old man. Let's say this guy lives in a state with Stand Your Ground laws in place. I choose Texas. This guy is well within his legal right to defend his property from any invaders, both foreign and domestic, and he takes special insult at this kid just wandering through his yard. So he catches the kid, and is tossing him around like a rag doll.

The authorities try to intervene, but there's no reasoning with the guy. Maybe he's got 'roid rage....no wait, that's artificial androgens, and I've already been accused several times of man-hating in this thread, so let's go with something a little more gender neutral: meth.
The guy's meth'd out, can't be reasoned with, he's still putting the child in danger.

What do you do?
Let the full grown man with only half of his life kill the kid? It's his right to do so after all, the kid is illegally trespassing on his property.
How do you de-escalate the situation?

[Papenbrook]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Where's your outrage? Tied up with some millionaire who can't decide if he wants to be a father, or a mother, or a punchline? Wrapped up in fighting for needlessly complicated language to address another human.

You just had to bring transphobia in this situation, didn't you?

Despicable.

------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the creation of this thread was a bad idea from the start. People are extremely passionate about their views, especially when they concern topics like this. However, in the end, nothing really gets done, and everyone just gets upset.

This thread needs to be locked.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

I am leaving the forums. For good.

This is the end. Bye..

Knew that was merely a cry for attention.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Papenbrook

You just had to bring transphobia in this situation, didn't you?

Despicable.

------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the creation of this thread was a bad idea from the start. People are extremely passionate about their views, especially when they concern topics like this. However, in the end, nothing really gets done, and everyone just gets upset.

This thread needs to be locked.

You need to be locked. up.

[Shark_Blade]

I blame the careless parents and the zoo authorities for poor enclosure.

[Cure]

I would have saved the child.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Dripping with hatred?
Someone's got an over-inflated sense of self.

Really I'm just curious if you've got actual facts to back up your philosophical leanings, or if it's all just bluster.

You mean like all that scientific evidence that people are born gay, or that God existsts, or empirical evidence for good an evil? Are these those same facts that should give a woman the right to choose, or the facts that support pro life? The basic fact of free will? Is that the fact you're looking for?

Please, point me in the direction of the facts you seek. Yes there are numerous studies that suggest we are not the only sentient species on planet earth, but as always, new research and new ideas raise even more questions, most of which are beginning to question our methods of establishing sentience in the first place. we've just discovered that gravitational waves actually exist, this year, but they have been suspected to exist for the last 60. We think the universe is expanding, based on the one method of evidence gathering we have for measuring the visable universe, but now that we have gravitational waves, we have a new way of seeing.
Point is, there are tons of things that are likely, but still sit on the fringe of probability. agaion, google is your friend, and if you're actually intereted, you could inform yourself by reading any of the literature put out by the Nonhuman rights project. I'm sure you'll find better arguments than mine in their writings.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's one thing to go on a forum and talk about how all animals are equal, and that some animals are more equal than others, it's another thing to actually do something about it.

Actually, all I've said is that the kids life is not of MORE value than the Gorillas, and that after multiple viewings of the video, it looks to me, and many others that the kid wasn't in terrible danger. It also looks like, if anything, the crowds reaction played the biggest part in his "display".

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You mention that the gorilla in question was a kid because it was 17, but that's actually almost half it's life span.

Maybe a little less than half, because there's usually less predation in a zoo environment, less food insecurity, better health care.

Most people would argue that animals live longer in the wild, than captivity. care to cite your source?

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Where as the kid was maybe 4% through with his life, taking into account his life expectancy rounds around 72 years.

4% of 72 is 2.88. if he lived to be 72, and is 4 years old, he's gone through 5.6% of his life.

I mean, you want to get all specific...okay, lets do that.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Okay, so here's the situation, the 4 year old has trespassed onto the property of a 36 year old man.

Nope, false equivalency alert!! The child has fallen onto the property of a 17 year old Gorilla. if he wer a human, he would still be, 17. You don't age him up just because his life span is shorter, we too had shorter lifespans once, doesn't mean 17year olds in the middle ages were more "mature".

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Let's say this guy lives in a state with Stand Your Ground laws in place. I choose Texas. This guy is well within his legal right to defend his property from any invaders, both foreign and domestic, and he takes special insult at this kid just wandering through his yard. So he catches the kid, and is tossing him around like a rag doll.

Again, not what happened. In the beginning he stood over him. The crowd went into a panic, and panicked him.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

The authorities try to intervene, but there's no reasoning with the guy. Maybe he's got 'roid rage....

There was no reasoning done. They arrived on the scene 10 minutes in, then shot him almost immediately. The gorilla was not involved in the discussion.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

no wait, that's artificial androgens, and I've already been accused several times of man-hating in this thread, so let's go with something a little more gender neutral: meth.
The guy's meth'd out, can't be reasoned with, he's still putting the child in danger.

Yeah, he's dragging the kid around. The kid fell from a crazy height, and hit his head. the cold water rush at the kids face kept him awake and alert, might have even saved him from drifting off. As a life guard, you do some pretty nasty things to patients you suspect have a head injury to keep them alert.
But it's all speculation, so let's continue.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

What do you do?
Let the full grown man with only half of his life kill the kid? It's his right to do so after all, the kid is illegally trespassing on his property.
How do you de-escalate the situation?

1. I clear the area of humans.

2. I wait for the gorilla to relax. with no audience screaming, he'll calm down and lose interest in the kid pretty quickly. betcha he even returns the kid to the keepers.

But again, I maintain, the parents and kid are at fault, The gorilla should not have paid the price for human error.

[The Deadman]

Originally Posted by Powder

Knew that was merely a cry for attention.

No one ever stays away forever...unless they're banned.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Dominant does not equal special, or more than.

In the natural world, the one that you, me and all the other human animals inhabit, it absolutely does. Gorillas are f**ked because they can't adapt to the crazy bullsh*t that we are doing to their habitat. Stuff our intellect, creativity, and very advanced social skills have put us in a position to do. Is it right or just? No, but it's a fact.

We are the fittest apes.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

In the natural world, the one that you, me and all the other human animals inhabit, it absolutely does. Gorillas are f**ked because they can't adapt to the crazy bullsh*t that we are doing to their habitat. Stuff our intellect, creativity, and very advanced social skills have put us in a position to do. Is it right or just? No, but it's a fact.

We are the fittest apes.

But we are still apes. This is the point. I agree, we have dominated, that's obvious, but we need to disabuse ourselves of the dominion over animals nonsense. We need to look past ourselves if we're to have any hope of a future at all.



Just remember, giving women the vote was lunacy once too. Things change, and this is one of the most important battles facing humanity in the next few decades; we have to learn to share our toys with the othe animals.
It's not a question of if, but when.

Runaway selection can be deadly. Overpopulation is becoming a very real danger. Diversity is the key, always had been, always will be.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

we have to learn to share our toys with the othe animals.

Someone tried that already.

This guy raised a baby ape along with his own son, to see if apes could develop just like humans. The chimp pretty much stayed a chimp the whole time.

But, if you want to be the next person to run down to a gorilla enclosure and "share your toys" with it, be my guest. I think you'll find pretty quickly that if the gorilla is polite, the worst he'll do is drag you around like he did the kid and accidentally seriously injure/kill you. If he's not polite, he'll probably tear all your limbs off and kill you on purpose.

Originally Posted by The Deadman

No one ever stays away forever...unless they're banned.

What about.... Super Goku?

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by TheSkeletonMan939

What about.... Super Goku?

saying his name three times summons him!

[plastroncafe]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

agaion, google is your friend, and if you're actually intereted, you could inform yourself by reading any of the literature put out by the Nonhuman rights project. I'm sure you'll find better arguments than mine in their writings.

Oh I am interested, but what I want are your sources.
You stated very clearly that gorillas and humans don't share a common language. I would like you to provide citations that say gorillas have a language at all.

Actually, all I've said is that the kids life is not of MORE value than the Gorillas, and that after multiple viewings of the video, it looks to me, and many others that the kid wasn't in terrible danger. It also looks like, if anything, the crowds reaction played the biggest part in his "display".

I may have embellished your opinion "a tad."

With all due respect, I don't find you a credible source for information regarding animal behavior, let alone the behavior of great apes. Unless of course you can provide some sort of credential that says otherwise.

Most people would argue that animals live longer in the wild, than captivity. care to cite your source?

I'll show you mine when you show me yours.
Difficulty: No PETA.

4% of 72 is 2.88. if he lived to be 72, and is 4 years old, he's gone through 5.6% of his life.

I mean, you want to get all specific...okay, lets do that.

Ooh, that's interesting.
Here's my work.

CNN says the boy is three, not four.
3/72 = 0.041
0.041*100 = 4.1%
Rounding down, to 4%

Nope, false equivalency alert!! The child has fallen onto the property of a 17 year old Gorilla. if he wer a human, he would still be, 17. You don't age him up just because his life span is shorter, we too had shorter lifespans once, doesn't mean 17year olds in the middle ages were more "mature".

I don't think this is a false equivalency at all. We're already comparing two completely different things, so we must create a common denominator, and I choose to age up the gorilla to the human equivalent stage of development.

If you like we can age the child down.
I mean, it's only an academic exercise.

There was no reasoning done. They arrived on the scene 10 minutes in, then shot him almost immediately. The gorilla was not involved in the discussion.

Still waiting for proof of gorilla language.
But while we wait, let's discuss contingency plans, and how they may seem instantaneous to the outside observer, they're actually composed of several moving parts.

These people have literally trained most of their adult lives for situations just like this one, and you think it's professional that it wouldn't take them longer to assess the situation, run through their list of pre-determined and practiced options, and act in ten minutes?

Cripes...you're not an EMT are you?

1. I clear the area of humans.

2. I wait for the gorilla to relax. with no audience screaming, he'll calm down and lose interest in the kid pretty quickly. betcha he even returns the kid to the keepers.

But again, I maintain, the parents and kid are at fault, The gorilla should not have paid the price for human error.

We're not talking about a gorilla, we're talking about a riled 35 year old meth-head who has the legal authority to do with that child as he wishes, because the kid willingly trespassed on his property.

I want to reiterate this, because you seem to keep missing it in favor of blind attacks on my character, my intelligence, and my ability to have a good time on a Friday night:

This situation sucks. It sucks that the zoo felt it had to kill this gorilla. It sucks that the enclosure wasn't secure enough to keep out a three year old. It sucks that his parents lost sight of him in a crowd.

It sucks that armchair pundits who know very little about zoos, what they do, the kind of liabilities they face, are coming out of the woodwork with the advantage of not only hindsight, but the comfort of their own ignorance.

It just sucks.
I'm not minimizing the tragedy that is the loss of this animal, again it sucks. I'm saddened greatly by it.

But having actually worked in this environment, I trust the zoo staff to have made the best possible decision in this Kobayashi Maru of a situation.

[Ninturtle]

I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

Just lie back and think of England.

[snake]

Originally Posted by Ninturtle

I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

It's a strange feeling alright

[Shark_Blade]

Apparently the parents were anything but well-disciplined. Picture of them in this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-history.html

Apparently Daddy was/is a habitual criminal.