So what did we take away from this series?

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Originally Posted by Tarris Vaal

I'm curious as to peoples thoughts to the Nick variant on Kraang -

Namely making them a dominated hive mind 'species' born from the Utrom.

As opposed to keeping the Utrom as a race and Kraang as a distinct member of that race.

Is this idea of a... Utrom civil war (as such) something that will stick in future incarnations? Or will the future versions return to the idea of Kraang being an individual character?


Personally I quite like this idea that the Utrom are now a doomed race because of this insidious takeover by one of their own.
It mirrors a lot of other scifi Hive/collective minds (such as Star Treks Borg, or Who's Cybermen) who have traditionally focused their story horror on the assimilation of Humans. Its quite interesting to have a glimpse of that kind of fate occurring to another race entirely in the way its developed in the Nick show.

I'd rather Krang be an individual Utrom criminal (with the other Utrom's mostly being good) than part of a collective hive-mind, or existing on his own without the Utroms, or as leader of a mostly evil race of Utroms. Just seems like the most simple and non-intrusive way to have Krang and Utroms in the same show/comic IMO.

[Jephael]

Originally Posted by Tetsu Deinonychus

I'd rather Krang be an individual Utrom criminal (with the other Utrom's mostly being good) than part of a collective hive-mind, or existing on his own without the Utroms, or as leader of a mostly evil race of Utroms. Just seems like the most simple and non-intrusive way to have Krang and Utroms in the same show/comic IMO.

That's basically how he's interpreted in the IDW comics.

[MrTMNT2012]

It's such a f#cking absolute criminal shame that veterans Joshua Sternin & J.R Ventimilia were replaced with the likes of Brandon Auman and most of the new amateur writers since Season 2.

Seeing those genius minds interpret classic TMNT Arcs like City at War and the Time Travel stuff would have been a dream come true for me and every Turtles fan as fans of well-crafted narratives and sharp writing.

Instead we got dialogue written for children and zero sophistication in narrative development for those arcs, which is why people are under the illusion that the series didn't do anything new - because we had EXACTLY that with the 2003 Series; except then it was much more fresh and acceptable.

Instead we got a series that basically only managed to retain some of it's Season 1 quality because of everything Ciro Nieli, Joshua Sternin and J.R Ventimilia built up so brilliantly, to the point where even the complete amateur writers couldn't bring it down at key climactic moments.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

It's such a f#cking absolute criminal shame that veterans Joshua Sternin & J.R Ventimilia were replaced with the likes of Brandon Auman and most of the new amateur writers since Season 2.

Seeing those genius minds interpret classic TMNT Arcs like City at War and the Time Travel stuff would have been a dream come true for me and every Turtles fan as fans of well-crafted narratives and sharp writing.

Instead we got dialogue written for children and zero sophistication in narrative development for those arcs, which is why people are under the illusion that the series didn't do anything new - because we had EXACTLY that with the 2003 Series; except then it was much more fresh and acceptable.

Instead we got a series that basically only managed to retain some of it's Season 1 quality because of everything Ciro Nieli, Joshua Sternin and J.R Ventimilia built up so brilliantly, to the point where even the complete amateur writers couldn't bring it down at key climactic moments.

I think it's just more that the story is poorly planned out.

April's dad after he's been rescued? Keep him out of the spotlight no matter what, mutate him or let him stay on the planet as it explodes.
Karai trying to take down the Shredder? Mutate/brainwash her so it's put on hold for two seasons.
The Kraang being defeated at the end of season one? Let's continue using them throughout season two anyway and then do a reverse ending at the conclusion of season two.
Shredder's brainwashing scheme? After he does it to Karai, he and the Foot will never try it again.
A reason for Shredder mutating? Let's say those nerve pinches Splinter did to him were crippling, who cares if it was over quickly and was not implied to be that devestating in the first place?
The Mutagen Man?... Uhm... Who?

[MrTMNT2012]

Originally Posted by neatoman

I think it's just more that the story is poorly planned out.

April's dad after he's been rescued? Keep him out of the spotlight no matter what, mutate him or let him stay on the planet as it explodes.
Karai trying to take down the Shredder? Mutate/brainwash her so it's put on hold for two seasons.
The Kraang being defeated at the end of season one? Let's continue using them throughout season two anyway and then do a reverse ending at the conclusion of season two.
Shredder's brainwashing scheme? After he does it to Karai, he and the Foot will never try it again.
A reason for Shredder mutating? Let's say those nerve pinches Splinter did to him were crippling, who cares if it was over quickly and was not implied to be that devestating in the first place?
The Mutagen Man?... Uhm... Who?

Agreed with all of this except Shredder's brainwashing scheme.

If I saw ONE more "mind-control" episode outta this series, not even those Season 4 Spoilers would have brought me back to it...

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with "filler" episodes or telling a long ongoing story, but these guys sure used some forced methods to stall the overall plot of the show.

Coupled with the negligence of the scheduling department, it could be pretty frustrating.

[MrTMNT2012]

With all that said, this was the one and only TMNT incarnation where they got the story right by it's very core. At least since Issue #1 of the Mirage Comics.

Everything from the main character dynamics in Season 1; between the four brothers, Splinter, April, Karai and Shredder to the actual character arcs and how they linked to the narrative was done right.

The way Karai/Miwa was adapted in this series as a primary source of motivation and animosity between Hamato Yoshi & Oroku Saki was something completely new to TMNT and it brilliantly managed to represent the dark thematic subtleties of the narrative that was first introduced in Issue #1 of the Mirage comics and never seen since.

[Aaronardo]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

It's such a f#cking absolute criminal shame that veterans Joshua Sternin & J.R Ventimilia were replaced with the likes of Brandon Auman and most of the new amateur writers since Season 2.

Seeing those genius minds interpret classic TMNT Arcs like City at War and the Time Travel stuff would have been a dream come true for me and every Turtles fan as fans of well-crafted narratives and sharp writing.

Instead we got dialogue written for children and zero sophistication in narrative development for those arcs, which is why people are under the illusion that the series didn't do anything new - because we had EXACTLY that with the 2003 Series; except then it was much more fresh and acceptable.

Instead we got a series that basically only managed to retain some of it's Season 1 quality because of everything Ciro Nieli, Joshua Sternin and J.R Ventimilia built up so brilliantly, to the point where even the complete amateur writers couldn't bring it down at key climactic moments.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Season 1 had some top-notch writing all the way through. It's a shame to see those writers replaced by people who don't so much as have a place writing horror B-movies. I hold on to false hope that this show will be back to that original quality one day, but after all the bullsh*t Auman and the gang have given us, I'm not holding my breath.

[Vegita-San]

how come cube doesn't come after you guys for saying the truth?


I tried to rewatch this series again in the hopes that maybe I mis judged it. But, I lost interest pretty quick once i got to season 2. and i still really can't place it on why...other than it feels all over the place and a jumbled mess of a series.


I really hope that nick takes it's time to properly develop a start, middle and finish for the next one, and gets all it's eggs in one cart before pushing forward just to see a return investment on a big purchase.

but somehow i doubt it. that's not how corporations work, especially with older properties

[MrTMNT2012]

Originally Posted by Aaronardo

Couldn't have said it better myself. Season 1 had some top-notch writing all the way through. It's a shame to see those writers replaced by people who don't so much as have a place writing horror B-movies. I hold on to false hope that this show will be back to that original quality one day, but after all the bullsh*t Auman and the gang have given us, I'm not holding my breath.

Watch the Season 4 finale...

Not saying it's better written (because nothing from the show is) but it does FINALLY deliver on the elements built up from Season 1's brilliant writing...

[CyberCubed]

There's plenty of plot and filler episodes in every season, and all the main plot threads do get called back upon eventually. If by the end of Season 5 some blatantly left over plots are not resolved, then we can talk.

[MrTMNT2012]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

There's plenty of plot and filler episodes in every season, and all the main plot threads do get called back upon eventually. If by the end of Season 5 some blatantly left over plots are not resolved, then we can talk.

This is objectively true but that doesn't mean they are thematically tied nor competently linked. That's the subjective argument.

This show has failed to deliver emotionally on every single plot thread set up after Season 1, with the exception of the Mighty Mutanimals and the main Shredder Vs. Splinter narrative.

April's aeon crystal is a good example of something that had terrible set-up and terrible pay-off. Literally did absolutely nothing for her character nor did it give the characters any tangible dilemmas because the source of the disequilibrium was completely external.

Contrast this with the Shredder/Splinter feud that's been set up beautifully since Season 1 and why it has basically lasted the show this long; because it featured internal conflicts and moral ambiguities that don't pander to children. They pander to the characters and their development.

This is why I think Owari is the single best episode of the entire series because it actually DOES dive into those very dilemmas set up since Season 1 so it doesn't even matter how well Brandon Auman has tackled it (he done a fine job actually), but the very fact that he chose to stick to certain plot threads harkens back to the sharp decisive writing of Season 1.

Also...it was just an incredible climactic episode.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MrTMNT2012

This show has failed to deliver emotionally on every single plot thread set up after Season 1, with the exception of the Mighty Mutanimals and the main Shredder Vs. Splinter narrative.

Every single aspect of Season 1 continued directly throughout the show. The Kraang's take over of Earth, the Splinter/Shredder feud, Karai and her story, April developing her powers, and so forth. Aside from that we get the usual mutant of the week eps, and those mutants aren't supposed to be developed much.

April's aeon crystal is a good example of something that had terrible set-up and terrible pay-off. Literally did absolutely nothing for her character nor did it give the characters any tangible dilemmas because the source of the disequilibrium was completely external.

April went from being out of control and not having any idea of her powers to honing them through every season, getting better telepathic powers, and learning to understand them. The aeon crystal subplot itself went on over the course of several episodes. After it ended, it ended, but it looks like it developed April's powers further.

Contrast this with the Shredder/Splinter feud that's been set up beautifully since Season 1 and why it has basically lasted the show this long; because it featured internal conflicts and moral ambiguities that don't pander to children. They pander to the characters and their development.

Which is what they've done with most plots.

I haven't seen the Season 4 finale yet so no spoilers, but the show develops characters as far as they can go without changing too much of the series.

Karai knows she's Miwa, she doesn't want to live in the sewers because she's a human girl and is old enough now (she's around 17 I guess at this point of the show) to live on her own.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Karai knows she's Miwa, she doesn't want to live in the sewers because she's a human girl and is old enough now (she's around 17 I guess at this point of the show) to live on her own.

It's funny becausr its true, but at the same time i can't see karai getting a job and paying rent.

[ToTheNines]

Karai's 18. The turtles are 17.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

It's funny becausr its true, but at the same time i can't see karai getting a job and paying rent.

Well what I also meant is I was explaining why Karai doesn't move in with the Turtles now that she knows Splinter is her father. I've seen a lot of people asking about that.

She's a human teenager who has already more or less lived on her own and is independent. I'm sure she doesn't want to live in dirty sewers and stay there even with the knowledge of Splinter being her biological father. So it explains why Karai isn't staying with them underground.

I mean it almost seemed like some people expected Karai to move in with the Turtles or something.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Well what I also meant is I was explaining why Karai doesn't move in with the Turtles now that she knows Splinter is her father. I've seen a lot of people asking about that.

She's a human teenager who has already more or less lived on her own and is independent. I'm sure she doesn't want to live in dirty sewers and stay there even with the knowledge of Splinter being her biological father. So it explains why Karai isn't staying with them underground.

I mean it almost seemed like some people expected Karai to move in with the Turtles or something.

It didn't happen because it's a kids cartoon and kids cartoons are usually afraid of changing the status quo, and everybody would have been complaining that Karai would have been a 5th Turtle.

Status quo, no matter what, it always has to be the Turtles and Splinter, with April and sometimes Casey as extras. No Splinter leading the Foot Clan. No one Turtle being taken out and not brought back for several episodes on end. No Turtle just walking out unless he comes back at the end of the same episode. No big shake ups to the main show's key dynamic. So having Karai move in, even if just for half a season or something, woulda been a big no-no.

If this was a more serious cartoon or a comic, Karai would have lived with them, at least for a while. She had no real reason to not hang with them after she found out the truth.

Much like April's father was always kidnapped or mutated to keep him out of the story, Karai was also kidnapped and mutated to prevent her from just moving in.

It reminds me of the 90's X-Men cartoons, where other characters that were X-Men in the comics, like Colossus and Angel were introduced, but were always given some excuse as to not stay and join the team, as to not shake up the established team too much.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Much like April's father was always kidnapped or mutated to keep him out of the story, Karai was also kidnapped and mutated to prevent her from just moving in.

And we STILL haven't heard his account as to what happened to April's mom. I've been waiting ever since the Mom-thing episode. Except I quit caring eventually.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

It didn't happen because it's a kids cartoon and kids cartoons are usually afraid of changing the status quo, and everybody would have been complaining that Karai would have been a 5th Turtle.

Well yes, but as I said it makes sense in-universe why she doesn't move in with the Turtles too.

If this was a more serious cartoon or a comic, Karai would have lived with them, at least for a while. She had no real reason to not hang with them after she found out the truth.

No, there's no reason for them too. Remember Karai barely knows Splinter, he didn't raise her and she has no memory of him as a 1 year old or whatever she was. She acknowledges he's her father now, but that doesn't make up for 16-17 years of parent/daughter bonding lost.

Much like April's father was always kidnapped or mutated to keep him out of the story, Karai was also kidnapped and mutated to prevent her from just moving in.

Or instead you should use common sense, Kirby was mutated to give April and the Turtles a subplot. That's why they don't show Kirby much anymore, his story is done. They don't need to "keep him out of the story" there's just nothing more to be done with him.

As for April's Mom, that is one big thing I hope Season 5 covers.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Well yes, but as I said it makes sense in-universe why she doesn't move in with the Turtles too.



No, there's no reason for them too. Remember Karai barely knows Splinter, he didn't raise her and she has no memory of him as a 1 year old or whatever she was. She acknowledges he's her father now, but that doesn't make up for 16-17 years of parent/daughter bonding lost.



Or instead you should use common sense, Kirby was mutated to give April and the Turtles a subplot. That's why they don't show Kirby much anymore, his story is done. They don't need to "keep him out of the story" there's just nothing more to be done with him.

As for April's Mom, that is one big thing I hope Season 5 covers.

Karai has a second chance to know her father, of course she'd hang with them for a while. It is the time for making up for 17 years especially when it wasn't splinter's fault. But you know, status quo.

Same with april. I mean... she does live with her dad righr? Or did she move out? Her dad doesn't need to be part of some big storyline, but he needs to appear or be mentioned once in a while so April doesn't look like a ****in orphan.