Star Wars Episode 8

[TigerClaw]

He likes it

[Vegita-San]

All I had to do was see the replies on that video to know I wasn't going to agree with it.


some folks on other corners of the internet that also posted that think whoever this guy is got paid by disney.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

But you bring up an interesting point about realism and the fantasy environment. There's a lot of the arguments in this thread regarding Rey are that it's unrealistic that she can do a thing.

Why is that where the realism line ends? Why do we have to be realistic about Rey's abilities but not realistic about other aspects of the universe?

The prequels were all about trade agreements, but people don't like that Maz was in the middle of a union dispute.

This is the second time you have brought this up, so I figure someone has to oblige you.

The only issue I have with Rey is her minimal amount of training compared to Anakin/Luke in relation to what she's done. Luke got his ass kicked for two movies (other than the Death Star) before he could do what Rey did at the end of TFA, along with his loss of a hand. Anakin, the Chosen One who is apparently conceived through the Force without a human father, loses his arm in his first duel with a Sith lord after 10 years of training in Ep. II, and doesn't do anything with the Force in TPM unless you count his piloting skills.

And there's the fighting with the staff, her mechanical aptitudes, and piloting skills. Is there anything she isn't inherently good at? In terms of training with Luke, he just tells her to "reach out" once. The closest she comes to getting a limb chopped off is

Spoiler:

the busted lightsaber

.

And

Spoiler:

she's apparently an autodidact, what with taking the Jedi books.

It's not that all the main protagonists haven't been Mary Sues/Gary Stus. Rey is just far more of one by comparison. Maybe it's a storytelling issue. One or two actual training montages, especially in TFA, or a scene that actually shows her struggling with...anything, and I could let it slide. Is anyone honestly expecting her to have a real issue fighting Kylo in IX?

[plastroncafe]

Vegita, the next time you wonder why there's no middle ground, save yourself the keystrokes and just look in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

This is the second time you have brought this up, so I figure someone has to oblige you.

Coming down from on high to talk a little old me? I'm flattered!

My question was why is that where that where the buck stops, not why is there a buck at all.

It's a subjective question, not an objective one.
I'm just curious why this is the sticking point.

I'm Legit curious as to why something like this so easily gets stuck in the crawl up so many. I don't understand it.

It seems so baked into the world already that I'm surprised people have as big a problem with it as they do.

[Vegita-San]

- anytime I check out one of plastron's replies, never ceases to amaze me. anyone offers any criticism against what they believe in, boom. it's a echo chamber. look in your own echo chamber .

as far as spike goes..
yep.

And considering the type of people in charge of the franchise now, it's meant to be deliberate, no doubt. Rey is basically infallible. and doesn't need to learn anything to be good at it. she's instantly good at it. If Ridley didn't make Rey at least seem likeable, she would be a totally annoying character. the kid character in the movie that can do no wrong that the audience always hates.

Something else that bugs me. what's the big deal about this Del Toro guy? who is he? where is he from? why do so many people think he being in star wars is a big deal? I didn't find anything good or likeable about his code breakercharacter.

[Spike Spiegel]

Did everyone forget how to use the quote function?

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

Did everyone forget how to use the quote function?

http://68.media.tumblr.com/47d8a576d...ol9yo2_540.gif

I don't quote Vegita because I kind of don't believe anything they have to say is worth saying the first time so repeating it seems futile.

And I'm on my phone, which doesn't lend itself to Great Coding.
Which is also why my link to moviebob was a link and not a YouTube embed.

[TigerClaw]

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters.

I think my favorite thing about him is when he gets extra angry his Masshole accent comes out stronger. I respect that in a guy.

But yeah, even when I don't agree with his assessment of a movie I usually find myself learning something about media criticism or film theory.

I was really curious to see what he would think of the disjointed nature of The Last Jedi. Because the movie was hardly perfect, but I don't have a background in film criticism or film Theory so I was looking forward to seeing what he had to say about it.

I will say this though, that guy ruined Wonder Woman for me. He had a theory before the movie came out that displeased me, so I spent the entire day of the movie distractedly waiting for that theory to pan out.

It did not.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

My question was why is that where that where the buck stops, not why is there a buck at all.

It's a subjective question, not an objective one.
I'm just curious why this is the sticking point.

I'm Legit curious as to why something like this so easily gets stuck in the crawl up so many. I don't understand it.

It seems so baked into the world already that I'm surprised people have as big a problem with it as they do.

It's just a narrative thing, for me. I personally feel like we have been cheated out of an arc for Rey for the sake of moving the plot forward at a fast enough pace. She's the heroine of the story, but a rather flat character in practice. She can just do things because apparently that's all we need to know about Jedi or their training in the ST. Like she says in the film, "they lift rocks."

And if you want to compare Rey to another female character, Ahsoka from Clone Wars/Rebels goes from a perky, naive Padawan to a Grey Jedi who can stand toe-to-toe with Vader himself. She starts out reckless like Luke did and screws up a lot, later fighting valiantly in the Clone Wars and having to deal with the loss of her squad while in command. She is framed after the Jedi Temple is bombed and expelled from the Order. She is later pardoned, but refuses to return. And, judging by her presence in Rebels, she's tough enough to survive Order 66.

She's terribly young (16 when she leaves the Jedi Order) when all this happens, and by some standards, she is very much a Mary Sue. She's a character inserted into an established era of the history of the Star Wars galaxy who wasn't present in the original source material (in this case, the prequels). Clone Wars and Rebels can be considered fan fiction to the same degree as any part of the old EU. Yet, people have responded well to her.

[plastroncafe]

Oh. Okay.
Fair enough.

I think I agree with moviebob that the term Mary Sue has been overused to the point of not adhering to his roots. Originally a term created in fanfiction for a perfect character with no flaws, it's come to mean any female character that someone takes issue with for whatever reason.

I know I've misattributed attributed it myself in reference to Batman. A character that is so heavily steeped in flaws he damn near comes out the other side flawless.

Ray has flaws, and they're the same flaws that Luke has.
Just as Ahsoka has flaws, as you mentioned.

I'm coming at Rey from completely different standpoint. Here's a girl who from a very young age had to take care of herself, where is Luke had Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru to take care of him. Luke not knowing how to fight with anything that wasn't a pistol he do use on the farm make sense for his character. Whereas Ray, being a young girl on her own, would have probably picked up a thing or twelve.

Also Ray has the advantage of not being afraid of the dark side like Luke always was.
Like the Jedi always were. I think that's a fatal flaw and their ideology, which has always been flawed.
Isn't Obi-Wan who says that only the dark side deals in absolutes?

Anyway, thank you for expounding.

[victory_angel]

[Andrew NDB]

I was kind of offput by the whole "Last Jedi" thing. So much of the movie seems to be about deconstructing the Jedi, that the Jedi Order was bullsh** (Luke is right, btw), let's go and burn down the temple and all the books... yet at the end Luke is all, "I won't be the last Jedi!" and Rey stole the Jedi books (in what I bet is a reshoot), presumably about to teach people in the ways of the Jedi Order. It seemed to be starting an all new Order would make sense, not Jedi Order 2.0.

[Vegita-San]

movie doesn't even follow it's own logic.

Luke spends whole movie moaning 'jedi must end'..

then does a complete 180 and seems happy that 'he won't be the last jedi'

but, what do I know. apparently the movie was great and fun and threw everything out the window. even it's own logic. some conspiracy theory.

The Titles 'deeper meaning' was just to shock fans into worry for 2 years. that's it.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I was kind of offput by the whole "Last Jedi" thing. So much of the movie seems to be about deconstructing the Jedi, that the Jedi Order was bullsh** (Luke is right, btw), let's go and burn down the temple and all the books... yet at the end Luke is all, "I won't be the last Jedi!" and Rey stole the Jedi books (in what I bet is a reshoot), presumably about to teach people in the ways of the Jedi Order. It seemed to be starting an all new Order would make sense, not Jedi Order 2.0.

The Jedi are dead, long live the Jedi?

I dunno, this seems like the Jedi Reformation to me.

[Spike Spiegel]

Our Only Look at George Lucas’ Vision for the ‘Star Wars’ Sequel Trilogy

Among the pieces presented at the meeting were portraits of an older Luke Skywalker training a new disciple named Kira (who was later renamed Rey). The idea was that, 30 years after the fall of the Empire, Luke had gone to a dark place and secluded himself in a Jedi temple on a new planet. The paintings show Luke meditating, reassessing his whole life.

Apparently, the initial plan for Star Wars: Episode 7 was that Luke, over the course of that movie, would rediscover his vitality and train this new Jedi. So basically, what we got from the Rey/Luke storyline in The Last Jedi was initially supposed to be the bones for George Lucas’ Episode 7. Imagine an alternate universe where Episode 7 was Luke reluctantly training a new Jedi – it would be completely different.

[plastroncafe]

It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

That's just one storyline in a bigger movie we have no idea about. Hardly a fair way to measure the merit of one potential film over what we got.

[sdp]

I'll say it again, Episode IX can't fix the problems, at least not for me, it's Ep. VII that screwed things up. Rian Johnson is getting the heat that JJ/Disney cooked up and he'll be the easy scapegoat.

I would've loved to have seen Lucas' Ep. VII, the fact that it took until Ep.VIII to get to a plot point that was going to be in VII originally shows us how much Disney is screwing up. We always knew Luke would be an Obi Wan like character in the future, Lucas had mentioned things like that back in the OT days.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Yeah, Crait is a mineral planet, its covered in salt.

It's based on a real place that has a salt flat
https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wi...salar-de-uyuni

I did not know this, this is actually really cool, I just thought it was NOT-hoth the planet, wish there had been a better way to portray it, the "it's salt" comment went over my head.

Originally Posted by NinjaPug

For those that thought the online audience scores were accurate and thought anyone mentioning bots were involved were delusional:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/sta...mpression=true

You can also see where the bots were malfunctioning on RT giving negative audience reviews for TLJ under other movies like Shape of Water.

Disney/Lucasfilm isn't going to alter their plans based on nonsense like that especially since it has been successful at the box office.

That's awkward because Rotten Tomatoes just announced that
Rotten Tomatoes Says Its 55% 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Audience Score Is Authentic
Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain.../#2d11c5d84231

Again, just look at this topic to see, the vocal minority is clearly the people who liked the movie.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Vegita, the next time you wonder why there's no middle ground, save yourself the keystrokes and just look in the mirror.

No self-awareness from your part? You're literally the other side of the coin.

You even told me in another topic "You cannot be in the middle ground" when I pointed out your side was too extreme for me.

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

Movie Bob makes some excellent points, so screw all them haters.

Can we screw all the haters of the prequels? Why is it ok for Moviebob to hate the prequels?

I should note I didn't watch the video, I got bored of his opinions a long while ago.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's clearly just me, but I found the storyline we got to be far more compelling.

It might only be a few like you that liked it and that's perfectly fine, I love Episode I and disagree with most of the haters which by now is the majority of the internet.

It's when people don't take he reality and spin it to fit their narrative like we're seeing right now everyone scrambling to "protect" the movie. Why didn't we see this type of propaganda for the DCEU? Because it didn't fit their narrative?

Many of the things people complaining about people complaining are not even the things people are complaining. Most people liked Luke and yet I see article after article "People can't accept the new Luke?" and I"m like "What? it's very few who didn't like Luke, that's not the problem of the story". They're using the same tactics the use for their political articles.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

That's just one storyline in a bigger movie we have no idea about. Hardly a fair way to measure the merit of one potential film over what we got.

I think you're under estimating how much I enjoy the existential crisis trope.

Plus I've seen what happens when Lucas is allowed to plot an entire Trilogy on his own. It didn't work for me. I'll take my chances.