Star Wars Episode 8

[RaphaelinSTL]

Interesting ...

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-f...ek-two-a156548

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

this article basically makes me want to oy vey. lots of revisionist history in this one. including thinking it was rebels that made asoka a popular character.

From the article

Early on, the story group fought for the character Ahsoka Tano, a 14-year-old girl created by George Lucas and further developed by the director, producer and writer Dave Filoni. Not initially popular, she had a high, whiny voice and all the self-control of a bratty teenager when she was introduced in 2008 in the animated film and subsequent series “The Clone Wars.” In his review, Roger Ebert called her “annoying,” and angry letters and emails flooded in from fans.

Yet Mr. Filoni and the story group were insistent that there was more to Ahsoka Tano. Even after the series was canceled in 2013, the team would not let her die. Instead they included her in a new animated series, “Star Wars Rebels,” taking her on a journey from adolescent to compassionate 30-year-old adult, one whose nuanced arc reveals flaws in the Jedi order and insight into Anakin Skywalker’s descent. She now has a considerable fan following, including many young women who treasure their “Ahsoka Lives” T-shirts.



Characters like Ashoka Tano are gaining prominence in the “Star Wars” universe. A new, unpublished analysis of “Star Wars” films shows striking progress in their representation of gender and race.

Ah, well...I'd honestly say Ahsoka was part of the old and new versions of the EU, given that she was introduced before the Disney buyout. And you also had characters like Mara Jade, Bastila, Darth Talon, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, Jocasta Nu, and Kreia...not to mention Mon Mothma. Female characters with prominent positions in SW are nothing new, and this "story group" is only the latest link in a long chain of creators that starts with Lucas himself.

But do you really expect journalists to research anything that closely in the age of clickbait?

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Spike Spiegel

But do you really expect journalists to research anything that closely in the age of clickbait?

Nope.

all that article did was made me realize why star wars is no longer for the fans. they are too busy trying to be 'progressive' to care about star wars.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Nope.

all that article did was made me realize why star wars is no longer for the fans. they are too busy trying to be 'progressive' to care about star wars.

I don't think that's true at all. There are huge parts of 8 I don't like... but I definitely don't believe Rian Johnson either has, or is being forced into some kind of "progressive" plan above his head.

Whether or not JJ was, I'm not certain. I kind of doubt it. I do know he was basically forced at gunpoint to do a ANH remake, but beyond that... not sure.

[CyberCubed]

Are people really playing the "progressive" card again? I remember when Episode 7's leads were announced people couldn't handle a female lead and a black hero as the two main characters. Like it actually bothered them, probably because they couldn't handle there was no white male hero instead. Even though Han Solo was a lead in the movie and Kylo Ren is also "white" even if he's a villain. Then there's Poe...a guy whose real life actor is spanish.

If this is what people are still complaining about (I've seen people hate on Rose because she's Asian, not because they find her dull/uninteresting but because she's specifically Asian), is just pathetic.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I don't think that's true at all. There are huge parts of 8 I don't like... but I definitely don't believe Rian Johnson either has, or is being forced into some kind of "progressive" plan above his head.

Whether or not JJ was, I'm not certain. I kind of doubt it. I do know he was basically forced at gunpoint to do a ANH remake, but beyond that... not sure.

then how come all the women do the heroic stuff, or die heroically? yet, all the guys are hot headed loosers who nearly get the whole group killed, or captured?

that's pure kathleen kennedy/story group nonsense right there.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Are people really playing the "progressive" card again? I remember when Episode 7's leads were announced people couldn't handle a female lead and a black hero as the two main characters. Like it actually bothered them, probably because they couldn't handle there was no white male hero instead. Even though Han Solo was a lead in the movie and Kylo Ren is also "white" even if he's a villain. Then there's Poe...a guy whose real life actor is spanish.

If this is what people are still complaining about (I've seen people hate on Rose because she's Asian, not because they find her dull/uninteresting but because she's specifically Asian), is just pathetic.

I just can't imagine a scenario where Kathleen Kennedy is coming at these movies, throwing agendas at the directors about "You need to do this!" or "This needs to be that!" But maybe. We do know that the only person saying that 7 is the Han movie, 8 is the Luke movie, and 9 is the Leia movie... is her. Since none of them beyond the Han movie were really written before she said that, and we know she's the only person with any power in the room.

Rose has a lot of potential. I dug everything I saw of her, even in the casino planet stuff. I just wish she'd arrived in 7, so there'd be more "mileage." It's not just her, but there is so much stuff given roots in 7 that is thrown out, and so much stuff given roots in 8... I have no idea how JJ will wrap this all up. It's do-able. But wow. Back on Rose, I mean... let's pretend there really is something with Finn and Rose. And now let's imagine we just met Leia in TESB (she was never in 4), and we didn't even get the "I love you" & "I know" until RotJ. It wouldn't have carried nearly the weight. It would have seemed a tacked on thing. And no matter what, you know there will be a major league time lapse of probably at least a decade between IX and X... so they kind of need to get their house in order fast and quick to make the Disney trilogy "matter" or even make sense.

[Vegita-San]

dude.. she literally said the male fans of the franchise no longer mattered and she didn't have to cater to them. if that's not man hating, i don't know what is.

and the fact that all the women are the hero's while the men not so much?
To me, it's got her finger prints all over it.

I personally think she has NO plan on where these things are going to go.

Episode 7 was written around one idea "What if luke skywalker vanished?" JJ specifically stated that was their entire idea to start with.

I have no doubt someone came up with a shocker title for this one and said 'Lets make the Title 'The Last Jedi'... We'll come up with the plot later. 'What? Rian wants to throw it all out and start from scratch? Cool, we trust him!'

And now they are stuck on where to go from 9 and JJ has to tie it all together somehow. It's an Even BIGGER mistake saying somehow this last one will tie together all three... when 8 didn't even tie together the stuff from 9 and..

god, my head is exploding trying to figure it all out.

[Shark_Blade]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

dude.. she literally said the male fans of the franchise no longer mattered and she didn't have to cater to them. if that's not man hating, i don't know what is.

Where did she say such thing?

and the fact that all the women are the hero's while the men not so much?

Where did you get this silly idea from? The men did plenty of heroic stuff:

Luke - managed to trick Kylo, becoming "more powerful than you can ever imagine", and gave time for the Rebels to escape.
Finn - attempted to bring back a code breaker, even attempted kamikaze to save the Rebels
Poe - despite loosing some fighters and bomb vehicles, he destroyed a Dreadnought.

Seems the men are pretty heroic to me. You just can't accept capable, powerful women do heroic things huh? Face it, it's happening everywhere be it at home institution and even in the business world. It's not that surprising that it's happening in fictional world too. Heck, even Eowyn ("I am no man") killed Sauron in Lord of the Rings because "no man can kill him". Chill.

I personally think she has NO plan on where these things are going to go.

Episode 7 was written around one idea "What if luke skywalker vanished?" JJ specifically stated that was their entire idea to start with.

I have no doubt someone came up with a shocker title for this one and said 'Lets make the Title 'The Last Jedi'... We'll come up with the plot later. 'What? Rian wants to throw it all out and start from scratch? Cool, we trust him!'

And now they are stuck on where to go from 9 and JJ has to tie it all together somehow. It's an Even BIGGER mistake saying somehow this last one will tie together all three... when 8 didn't even tie together the stuff from 9 and..

god, my head is exploding trying to figure it all out.

Maybe. Nothing anyone can do for now but wait. Hey, if you don't like it don't watch it. Simple.



Anyway, here's Angry Joe:

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Where did she say such thing?

Seems the men are pretty heroic to me. You just can't accept capable, powerful women do heroic things huh

and thus another SJW is born saying the same old stuff... sigh

https://movieweb.com/star-wars-movie...hleen-kennedy/

she's a card carrying fake feminist just like paul feig.

as for that video you linked, all you have to do is read the comments and see that angry joes company is owned by disney now. He did his REAL review earlier, and trashed it apparently. then did this and backpeddled 100%. smh.

[Cure]

I don't really see what's wrong with someone saying they're not catering to a certain demographic; it just means that the movie is made for everyone. Having a problem with a movie that's not made specifically with you and your type in mind is pretty gross.

[sdp]

There's a fineline between something being "SJW" and "racist/sexist".

I do remember all the sexist/racists that were complaining because of Finn/Rey Whatever adding some diversity is perfectly fine, I especially loved it since at the time I thought it meant they were taking risks (which we know now they didn't).

Calling out a scene where there's no diversity and it's mostly women with few men/aliens is not fine and is clearly trying to pander to a a demographic.

I can't say my enjoyment of Star Wars has been affected yet by it though, it's annoying when people point it out. My enjoyment of Star Wars has been affected by the plot.


The problem is people and media in both political extremes take advantage of this to prove their point as to why they're correct. This is the main problem with media today where things are "too political" and they want to polarize you into one extreme


It does make me wonder if all the protection the movie is getting from media is because it fits their political agenda or if they're in the pockets of Disney or I if they're just big Star Wars fans protecting the property because of that. Their political bias in geek culture sites is well known while it's also suspicious that Marvel gets it a bit easier than DC in those sites (yes, i'm aware DC isn't doing a good job but still). But you mention these things and you're labeled alt-right or shill.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

all that article did was made me realize why star wars is no longer for the fans. they are too busy trying to be 'progressive' to care about star wars.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

and thus another SJW is born saying the same old stuff... sigh

she's a card carrying fake feminist just like paul feig.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

dude.. she literally said the male fans of the franchise no longer mattered and she didn't have to cater to them. if that's not man hating, i don't know what is.

Originally Posted by Vegita-san

and the fact that all the women are the hero's while the men not so much?
To me, it's got her finger prints all over it.

All this guy ever does is whine about the same anti-feminist agenda over and over again. And not just for Star Wars, with any other franchise he posts about too. And in almost every thread. And this is coming from a 40 year old man, too. If Vegita-san was in his 20's it'd be a different story, this guy is a middle age man.

Anyone who disagrees with him too is called an, "SJW"

Personally I see nothing in the new Star Wars movies that's pandering. It's the same kneejerk reaction some people like he felt when Episode 7 was first revealed with Rey and Finn and people had mental breakdowns there was no white male lead there (even though there technically was with both Han and Kylo Ren).

[dl316bh]

Actually saw The Last Jedi last week.

I'm not sure why it's considered divisive. Well, I kind of do, but not on a level regarding the actual craft of the film. It's far and away better than the last four films and I say that as someone who likes some of the prequels, flawed as they are. It's ten times better than Force Awakens. I finally saw that film for the first time in preparation for The Last Jedi and I'm not sure I've seen a more contrived film filled with more disbelief suspension breaking moments and coincidences in a long while.

I think The Last Jedi is in my top three. It's only real competition are Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I think it might edge out Return. Empire might still take the top spot though for being a bit tighter film.

I liked the message of the film - I took it to be something like "don't be afraid to kill your heroes if you have to, but it's okay to respect and look up to them even if they're not what you thought" - and, while people don't like it for sacrilege reasons, I do kind of like that it takes some tenants of the franchise to task and might move away from some of them. It looks like they want to move Star Wars away from the Skywalker legacy and morph the force away from something as rigid as light and dark, which, don't they kind of have to, going forward? Disney clearly wants this to be a long term money maker and while I still think that diminishing returns will set in at their pace, doing this is probably the smart call. How many times can you have the fate of the universe center around one family line, with the order in the galaxy crumbling every time they shift? How long before the galaxy just stopped putting up with it and tracked down anyone with Skywalker blood? Wouldn't that get boring? The first time they tried to ape what originally worked was Force Awakens and people started turning on that inside of a month or two.

Spoiler:

Poes story was an interesting one and something that probably needed to be told. Poe was a blank slate going into this film, as he did f*** all in Force Awakens since he was only in the bookends, so taking his status as the ace fighter pilot and using that play into an obsession with big, heroic plays to save the galaxy was a great choice. Hail Mary plans have certainly saved the day numerous times in the franchise, but they're often desperate with a high chance of failure. You can't just keep hedging your bets on them working out, something his superiors knew, and Poe comes close to actually getting them all killed a couple times here. If Roses sister never got those bombs off, the Resistance died right there, all because Poe wouldn't pull out. His idea with Rose and Finn ultimately ended with the scuzzy codebreaker selling out the stealthed ships, ruining Holdo and Leias plan and almost making Holdos sacrifice meaningless.

Luke's story was interesting. I had reservations that Luke really would have given up like he did after a screw-up, even one that big - and apparently that was Mark Hammils problem with the film - but once you get past that and accept it, it works. He's in a bad place, perhaps going too far in his views on the Jedi, but it softens a bit over time as he learns to forgive himself and let the past go. Judging by some reactions, I think some people actually missed that. It's about letting the past go and turning back towards the future, the way he used to. He finally seems to accept his place and maybe even his role as an inspiration, saying confidently that he won't be the last Jedi. He even spared the Jedi text, which are in a drawer in the Falcon in a blink and you'll miss it moment.

I saw some people complain that Luke didn't get to really fight or show off at the end, which is strange. Luke was the hero at the end and he basically won by completely outsmarting his foe, using their flaws against them and buying time for the Resistance to flee. He's what you'd expect of a Jedi master with full control of the force. They wouldn't necessarily need to use the lightsaber as much, with their mastery of the force allowing them to win through other means than going directly for violence. It's like a monk who has managed to reach enlightenment and mastery, who can allow your to defeat yourself. It might have been even cooler than him showing up and just taking out the First Order in some blaze of glory, because it's unexpected and geez, haven't we already kind of seen that?

I got misty eyed twice during this film and shed tears two other times. I haven't felt anything from a Star Wars film in over a decade. The Last Jedi made me feel again about Star Wars. That's a big accomplishment. The first was Leia using the force to bring herself back to the ship. She chose a different path, but she's still a Skywalker. The second is when Yoda reunites with Luke one last time, the old master giving his old pupil one last life lesson, telling him how he's missed him. That one got a tear or two shed. Third was when I got choked up thinking Finn was going to die at the end. I'd heard spoilers, but oddly heard nothing about where Finn ended up in the movie, so I was blind on that one and actually bought it. He was the only one I really cared much about in Force Awakens, so yeah. The last was the second tears bit, when Luke is looking out in his last moments and has a vision of the twin suns of Tatooine while the theme plays, just before letting go while at peace.

I liked Rey more in this film. She actually felt like she had a character arc and learned things. Same for Kylo Ren. Both seemed to come into their own here as opposed to being kind of... well, nothing, really, in the prior film. They needed to be either more charming or menacing, respectively, in the last film to get by without an interesting character arc and didn't quite reach it there.

At first, I wasn't hot on Snoke just being offed like he was with no fanfare, but I not only got over it quickly, I ended up thinking it was for the best. My only hang-up was "we knew nothing about this guy, so why should we care?" I then realized its not about him, we care because of what it means for Kylo, not Snoke. Snoke was nothing and frankly, anything they did would have just been a pale Emperor Palpatine imitation anyway, so f*** it. Kill the repeat, then subvert the immediate expectation for Kylo. Works for me.

I liked the last ditch heroic sacrifice of Holdo. It works well. I've seen people complain about "well, how can you have any drama now that they have hyperspace bombs" and jesus, I really do wonder if people actually watched the movie or not. She turned a ship around and jumped to lightspeed in their path, which caused ungodly damage. The reason? It was a massive carrier. You can't just jump an X-Wing and expect to take out half a fleet. Plus, holy crap, the resources it would take to just make giant carriers simply to use as "bombs" would be astronomical. Hell, they barely have anything left at the end.

I think the only thing that maybe could have stood with a couple cuts is the casino sideplot. But then, maybe not? It does have some revelations about the state of the galaxy in Star Wars that brings depth to things. Revelations that make sense. It even retroactively helps explain some things. Much like bringing things past just the light and the dark, it brings the war beyond just the space Nazi's and the space Allies.

The final scene of the film was fairly powerful too, because it shows that, whatever he thought his failures were, Luke Skywalker was and is the hero in Star Wars, then and now, in and out of universe. He'd done something to inspire the galaxy one more time, enough that slave kids are telling each other about his stand against the First Order to buy the Resistance time, and showed that, for as much as looking to legends too much can be harmful, they're a benefit as inspiration. He fanned the flames of hope in the galaxy one more time. Luke Skywalker mattered. He passed, at peace, a hero one more time. It's funny, the nature of new stories with new casts, which cast the old as mentors who can't solve the new problems, is as old as time, but for as much as new Star Wars follows that to an extent, Luke Skywalker was still the hero of the day.

Great movie. It actually made me feel positive about Star Wars again and was what I wanted all along from new films. I'm not sure I'm reconciled with the reality of it being a Disney thing, I'm not interested in any of the merchandise or gaming anymore and I'm not definitely not seeing the spin-offs in theaters, but unless Abrams screws it up and pulls another Force Awakens I'll probably be there for IX.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Why are you always make it about some complexes?

Protecting what you like is not a complex.

Gah, I had a whole big thing I was writing in response to this, then I got sick, and now it's so far removed I don't even care anymore. Maybe it's for the best. We were starting to argue in circles and everything I had would have just continued it. Worth just returning to Star Wars.

Still, this is worth addressing.

Mainly to say, let's not go down this road in the future, because we were headed toward snarktown and I'd rather remain cordial.

Where did you get this silly idea from? The men did plenty of heroic stuff

Yeah. Actually, I'd go so far as to say Luke ends up being the hero of the film.

Rose has a lot of potential. I dug everything I saw of her, even in the casino planet stuff. I just wish she'd arrived in 7, so there'd be more "mileage."

I felt the same. I thought she was a great addition. Actually, this was the film where I felt the characters in general came into their own.

[CyberCubed]

Agreed on all counts. Rey and Kylo Ren are now much better (and developed) characters now than they were in the first film. Snoke and many other aspects of TFA were just too similar to the original trilogy and getting rid of him early worked wonders. Now we can have the story focus entirely on Kylo Ren without getting into an Emperor rehash. And as I said, Kylo Ren might reveal some backstory of how Snoke turned him in the next film as well, so for those who want it might still get some info on the character.

I like Finn and Poe, not sold on Rose yet, but we'll see. But I think people oddly expect too much out of them? They're not really handled much differently than Han, Lando, or even Leia were in Episodes V and VI. They're basically there to be support characters, fighter pilots, give Rey some characters to interact with and befriend and not much more. They have decent character arcs for what they're there for.

I think Luke was handled very well, and it made sense to see him so disappointed that his nephew Kylo Ren could be so easily turned, that him raising a new Jedi order was burnt to the ground, or that him stopping Vader/Palpatine didn't seem to do much to slow down the Empire at all. And there's a 30+ year gap here just like in real life, we have no idea what other struggles Luke went through in 3 decades time that will surely be focused on in endless comics and novels they make for years.

I think The Last Jedi is going to be a film that gets better and better upon repeated viewings. Lastly Rey being a nobody is the best decision they came up with. It proves you don't need to be some predestined character for greatness and that Rey can forge her own story without being tied to older characters just for the sake of legacy lineage.

[dl316bh]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Agreed on all counts. Rey and Kylo Ren are now much better (and developed) characters now than they were in the first film. Snoke and many other aspects of TFA were just too similar to the original trilogy and getting rid of him early worked wonders. Now we can have the story focus entirely on Kylo Ren without getting into an Emperor rehash. And as I said, Kylo Ren might reveal some backstory of how Snoke turned him in the next film as well, so for those who want it might still get some info on the character.

This film did wonders for Rey. She was likable enough in Force Awakens, but ultimately didn't feel like much. I didn't find myself caring about the parentage thing - and think it's for the best that they solved that how they did in TLJ - and that was what little real motivation she had. I connected with Finn a lot more, because he was the only one who felt like he had a character arc, to the point where I'd wished he'd been "the guy" at least once during Force Awakens. Him standing firm and lighting up the lightsaber, despite having no noticeable connection to the force or real chance, and then holding his own for a bit was one of the few TFA scenes that got a reaction out of me.

Kylo actually felt like he had reasons and motivations this time too. He went from eye rolling in TFA to an interesting antagonist in one film. Impressive.

I like Finn and Poe, not sold on Rose yet, but we'll see. But I think people oddly expect too much out of them? They're not really handled much differently than Han, Lando, or even Leia were in Episodes V and VI. They're basically there to be support characters, fighter pilots, give Rey some characters to interact with and befriend and not much more. They have decent character arcs for what they're there for.

I don't know, I think they all had a decent amount of things to do. Hell, Poe was a central player in events of half the film. Hell, his character arc almost f***ed the Resistance a couple times. Rose had clear character and with Finn they built off what they did with him in TFA, to the point he calls himself rebel scum. I think they did a lot with them. More than TFA did for anyone not named Finn, for sure.

I think Luke was handled very well, and it made sense to see him so disappointed that his nephew Kylo Ren could be so easily turned, that him raising a new Jedi order was burnt to the ground, or that him stopping Vader/Palpatine didn't seem to do much to slow down the Empire at all. And there's a 30+ year gap here just like in real life, we have no idea what other struggles Luke went through in 3 decades time that will surely be focused on in endless comics and novels they make for years.

I could see him just being so disappointed in himself, too, given what he almost did. But more, I think what happened just made sense for his character and was laid out perfectly. When he was young, he always looked to the future, out over the horizon. Then he got old, and looked to the past far too much. Then he learned one more life lesson and realized it was time to look at the present. Perfect.

I think The Last Jedi is going to be a film that gets better and better upon repeated viewings. Lastly Rey being a nobody is the best decision they came up with. It proves you don't need to be some predestined character for greatness and that Rey can forge her own story without being tied to older characters just for the sake of legacy lineage.

Probably. Having seen it now, I think part of it is kneejerk reactions over the stuff the film seems to want to put behind the franchise and some people feeling upset that, in their mind, Luke Skywalker was trivialized or his legacy diminished (which is absolutely not what happened). I think there's a general war inside a lot of fans, most times, in that they want something new and different, but then, they don't, because that's unfamiliar, and it's a clash that waxes and wanes.

Opinion on Star Wars films seem to shift over time anyway, so it will likely end up appreciated more over time. We'll see.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by sdp

It does make me wonder if all the protection the movie is getting from media is because it fits their political agenda or if they're in the pockets of Disney or I if they're just big Star Wars fans protecting the property because of that. Their political bias in geek culture sites is well known while it's also suspicious that Marvel gets it a bit easier than DC in those sites (yes, i'm aware DC isn't doing a good job but still). But you mention these things and you're labeled alt-right or shill.

Disney literally strong armed theaters hostage to give this movie extra showings, and now it's biting theater owners in the butt.

They also dared to remove a critic from press screenings if he didn't give them favorable reviews.

Look at that, and the angry joe situation above and you wonder why so many 'pro' critics suddenly like this mess.

[Shark_Blade]

Angry Joe isn't owned by Disney (you fell for that April Fool joke lmao).

If you actually watch the video, he went to watch the movie twice again - that's three times in total. And he bought the Visual Dictionary books. From that he broaden his knowledge and develop a new level of understanding of the movie as a whole.

That's a nerdy dedication. I see no problem with that.

And people's opinion change overtime, that's not surprising tbh.

[Utrommaniac]

A thing to remember is that Anakin was also one helluva nobody. He was born a slave for crying out loud! And while Rey wasn't quite in the same vein as that, there's more than enough similarity between the two.

Which might fuel some of Ben's bitterness toward her, since she has more in common with his own grandfather than he does.

Heck, even ROSE has more in common with Anakin than Ben does, with her background being in slavery. And Rose's sister having skill in piloting.

At least he gets Anakin's tendency for being broody and over dramatic

Spoiler:

And are we not going to talk about the fact that Admiral Akbar died in the same attack that Leia nearly did? RIP, you Father of Memes, Patron Of Identifying When Things Are Traps.

[dl316bh]

Spoiler:

Ackbars death was so understated, you could easily miss it. But that's sort of how it's been for him in the new trilogy in general, so I guess it fits. He's just sort of been there in the background. You could even miss the realization he was even there in both movies.

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

And people's opinion change overtime, that's not surprising tbh.

It almost feels like tradition for the opinion of a Star Wars film to change over time.