Your religious views and positions on matters such as God and the meaning of life?

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Not believers by default, but "know" that God exists by default and have the choice to believe and have faith in him (and be eternally happy as a result) or not believe in him (by having faith in something else which does not bring eternal happiness, aka idolatry).

I wasn’t exactly sure what eternal happiness refers to so I had some googling to do. I guess it’s not so much talking about day-2-day happiness, but an everlasting happiness in the afterlife? As well as happiness free from external factors such as possessions? How do you describe eternal happiness?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

I wasn’t exactly sure what eternal happiness refers to so I had some googling to do. I guess it’s not so much talking about day-2-day happiness, but an everlasting happiness in the afterlife? As well as happiness free from external factors such as possessions? How do you describe eternal happiness?

When I say Eternal Happiness I refer to contentment, simply. As in being at peace with yourself and everything regardless of whether it is this life or the life to come. I do not believe heaven aka, the garden of Eden, is the end goal. It is simply a garden. A reward for good moral character perhaps, but not the ultimate purpose.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

When I say Eternal Happiness I refer to contentment, simply. As in being at peace with yourself and everything regardless of whether it is this life or the life to come. I do not believe heaven aka, the garden of Eden, is the end goal. It is simply a garden. A reward for good moral character perhaps, but not the ultimate purpose.

Do you consider yourself currently having eternal happiness?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Do you consider yourself currently having eternal happiness?

Yeah, couldn't be any happier. Life has had a lot of tragedies and hardships lately, but there is always beauty

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Yeah, couldn't be any happier. Life has had a lot of tragedies and hardships lately, but there is always beauty

Yeah no reason why tragedies or hardships should make you less content or less at peace with yourself. Way to find the beauty in your hard moments.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Ugh...This logic is what decidedly repulses me about religions.
The fact that its books and followers, believe that all humans, regardless of their origins somehow believers by default, is rather disturbing.


I have answered your question.
The fact that you didn't noticed or didn't like the answer or could not comprehend it - is not my problem.
Stop with cheap baiting, please.

Dream on.

Hmm, yeah, except you really didn't. Here again is my question to you.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

So... how do you explain your own uniqueness in that system, which is all made up of the same materials, atoms, etc, as every other living thing in existance? How do you explain why or how you are different from a dog or an ameoba? Both exist solely to procrete, by your own expressed belief. Yet (as far as we know) they do not have a higher conciousness to even contemplate the meaning- or lack of same- of their own existance as we do. Can you explain that difference?

You replied with THIS:

Originally Posted by Sumac

Our intellect is developed enough so we can "comprehend" ourselves, for the lack of better term.
That is all.

Precisely.
There is nothing special.

What are you even talking about?

Other species are not developed enough to has their own religions.

For development of religions you need species that have a robust imagination and high intellect (higher than that of apes or dolphins). And those species should have a conscious fear of death, aside from instinctual, since fear of death and curiosity / imagination are the foundations of any system of beliefs.

Is is very strange that you can't understand this and that you believe that science can't explain it. But what I can expect from someone who is willing to debate the very foundation of life?

You state it like it's a fact. Which is not the case. There is nothing flawed about this theory.
Why do you think that there would be "no use" for individuality, if this impulse exists in an autonomous living being?

Basically, you deflected the questions with pseudo-scientific circle-speak to "man-splain" that we have more developed brains- which is, well- does the word "DUH?" mean anything to you? But neuro-electric impulses and bio-chemical reactions do NOT equate to beliefs and emotions and abstract images.

So, I will ask again, because you seem unable to give a simple and honest answer to the simplest of questions- if all we are is neurons firing and atoms floating around forming molecules, HOW do you explain that in all the vastness and INFINITE complexity and possibilities of the universe, a pattern of atoms and molecules and proteins formed that makes YOU a unique and completely one-of-a-kind individual being, whose physical and personality traits have NEVER EXISTED BEFORE, and WILL NEVER BE DUPLICATED AGAIN in all of the history of the entire universe, yet came together (by sheerest chance, according to your view) to make you YOU? Or make the two Leos in this discussion who THEY are, or to create every single human being that has ever existed, as unique individuals who can never be exactly duplicated no matter how much time passes or how many combinations of those same basic atoms and proteins may be created?

If all of human history is just random reactions of chemical stimuli and neuro-electric impulses, then that same history means nothing, and our very existence is basically a cosmic accident- which is so astronomically incredible when one considers the enormous odds of even ONE person's unique mind and physical attributes, that the idea of billions upon billions of these cosmic "accidents" occurring EVERY SINGLE DAY becomes- well, ludicrous. But I leave it to you to decide which is more logical- that so many random reactions could occur DAILY to create every person who ever lived by absolute chance, or that there just MIGHT be some purpose and meaning to all those beings coming into existence as unique individuals who will only ever exist ONCE. Because even nature never duplicates her own designs exactly- not even with "identical" twins!

Originally Posted by Sumac

I recommend you to remember for the future, that if you want to prove something you should either provide even basic logical foundation or links. If you can't do either, due to your arrogance, laziness or pain in the little toe - it's not my problem. It's not my duty to prove your point of view for you.

For now, I will consider you a useless babbler, which is not all surprising considering you other laughable "beliefs".

Aaand, once again, you fall into the same old tired pattern of treating the views of others as inferior to your own definition of "logic" and "reality". It's funny, but is it weren't for the fact that Zephram Cochran and the launch of the Phoenix wasn't still a couple of decades away, I'd almost swear you were a disguised Vulcan who is just a few years early to the party. They are almost as slavishly devoted to their logic too, whether or not it is practical, or even particularly applicable to the situation. Though at least when they do it, they fully understand what it actually entails. But honestly, such stubborn adherence to one view without even seeking alternate avenues of thinking while looking down one's nose at those who DO give open and honest thought to different ideas and beliefs, is not only severely limiting, but just might be the highest form of arrogance imaginable.

Originally Posted by ProphetofGanja

I feel like these are just two different ways of viewing things, like a glass half empty or half full kind of deal. When you think about the universe as a whole you either focus on all the mysteries we don't yet understand or you think about how much we've learned about how our reality is ordered and structured. I think this is just one of those things where you either fall into one category or the other.

You know I really think this is pretty much the case for a lot of people. If not TMNT, then other comic book properties; they literally worship them. I'm sure somebody could write a whole book on how modern-day superheroes are just the updated versions of the mythic archetypes of long ago, changed to fit the times (apparently

somebody tried but failed, according to the review)

As far as what I believe about the existence of god or the meaning of life, I'm not sure about most things. I think it is beyond the current level of our technology to even begin to gain some of the answers to these questions through science. They're not entirely scientific questions.

What I think is most likely is that all consciousness is one entity. I think of it like water; it can be in many different places at once, in an unlimited variety of vessels, but wherever it is it's always water and it's always part of the total sum of water on Earth, which, barring a negligible amount of in/out is very constant. I think that this universal consciousness exists somewhere outside of physical spacetime. I think that what we are really referring to when we ponder the nature of divinity is this universal consciousness. I don't believe that there is a god, I believe that we are god.

Namaste (the divinity in me recognizes the divinity in you)

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quot...a-72-92-00.jpg

So what is the meaning of life? Beings are born into our reality and a portion of the universal consciousness is imbued into the living creature, so that it can experience the physical world. There is no distinction between living creatures, they all receive a part of the same soul. The amount of soul that can be held however varies from vessel to vessel. This act of a portion of the universal consciousness being poured into different vessels, to be poured back into the ocean of the whole either happens forever because time is infinite or at some point it will end because time is finite; I'm not sure which. In either case, the point is just to ride the ride as many times as you can.



This site explains one version of this theory "The Egg" by Andy Weir (although there is an additional bit of speculation about what the point of all this could be)


http://www.spiritualbee.com/media/go...sciousness.jpg

So I just believe that we're all really part of the same thing. I think there are some entities that exist either in other dimensions or on other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, meaning we can't perceive them with our usual senses. Sometimes they manifest themselves as what we call ghosts or extradimensional entities (like they say on Ghost Hunters). Sometimes I think ghosts are just a psychic impression left on a place as a result of a traumatic event.

^ THIS guy gets it!!

PoG, You have described almost perfectly the form of spiritual oneness that is one of the many tenets of my own faith. That all things are one, and all life is connected in a web of energy and matter that encompasses everything.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Basically, you deflected the questions with pseudo-scientific circle-speak to "man-splain" that we have more developed brains- which is, well- does the word "DUH?" mean anything to you? But neuro-electric impulses and bio-chemical reactions do NOT equate to beliefs and emotions and abstract images.

First and foremost - I have answered question you have asked.
Due to how you put out your question I have concentrated on the word "consciousness", so I have answered precisely that.
If you wanted to ask more - you should have made your question more clear and elaborated.
But apparently you love to blame others in sexism and "man-splaining", due to making slightly confusing argument. For your sake, I hope it's not how you usually argue with people.

But, at least you have went further than that and actually decided to ask your question again.
A bravery worthy of applause in this days of Internet!

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

So, I will ask again, because you seem unable to give a simple and honest answer to the simplest of questions- if all we are is neurons firing and atoms floating around forming molecules, HOW do you explain that in all the vastness and INFINITE complexity and possibilities of the universe, a pattern of atoms and molecules and proteins formed that makes YOU a unique and completely one-of-a-kind individual being, whose physical and personality traits have NEVER EXISTED BEFORE, and WILL NEVER BE DUPLICATED AGAIN in all of the history of the entire universe, yet came together (by sheerest chance, according to your view) to make you YOU? Or make the two Leos in this discussion who THEY are, or to create every single human being that has ever existed, as unique individuals who can never be exactly duplicated no matter how much time passes or how many combinations of those same basic atoms and proteins may be created?

Answer is simple: Chaos. Randomness.
In the system with billion+ possible outcomes you will receive billion+ possible outcomes.
Just like life itself has appeared due to random combination of elements being in the right place in the right time, so does everything else.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

If all of human history is just random reactions of chemical stimuli and neuro-electric impulses, then that same history means nothing, and our very existence is basically a cosmic accident- which is so astronomically incredible when one considers the enormous odds of even ONE person's unique mind and physical attributes, that the idea of billions upon billions of these cosmic "accidents" occurring EVERY SINGLE DAY becomes- well, ludicrous. But I leave it to you to decide which is more logical- that so many random reactions could occur DAILY to create every person who ever lived by absolute chance, or that there just MIGHT be some purpose and meaning to all those beings coming into existence as unique individuals who will only ever exist ONCE. Because even nature never duplicates her own designs exactly- not even with "identical" twins!

I know what are you talking about. And it all boils down to the simple fact: you are scared.
Scared of death.
Scared that your life has no meaning.

I've seen those arguments before, usually from religious people. And all of them boil down to intense desire to have meaning.
Because you are scared that everything you have done and everything you will do - is absolutely useless, will not make any difference whatsoever, and eventually will be lost in time.
This is one of the many reasons, why religions, despite being proven nothing but a collection of morally questionable fairy tales over and over again, still have followers.

People are afraid of loneliness. They are afraid of death. But most of all they are afraid of being meaningless.
Why in the most fictional stories aliens look like humans and humans usually depicted as a special race? A "chosen ones"?
Why humans give human qualities to animals?

And answer is simple: because, of inherent arrogance of human race. Humans desperately, sub-consciously want to be special. They want to be unique.

And when you tell them that their lives are nothing, but an outcome of natural system, mathematical equation, running on its own, with billions of possible outcomes they of course deny that.

"How can you even suggest that I am not SPECIAL?! How can I be just a human, one of many billions who lived, live and will live on this planet? That I don't have any special purpose?" - they say. You say.

But it is what it is.

You are not special.
Your life is not special.
You are just one of many humans who live on this planet.
You are and everything you ever done will be lost to time and won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.
Your decisions and your actions are nothing to the universe.
They don't change anything.

You are just a result of the meaningless system, that in itself a just accidental outcome of the fight for survival, that was waged on this planet by the living creatures over last millions of years.

That is all there is to you, to me, to anyone else.

And unless you give me undeniable prove, that this whole "system" is a result of conciouss design, I am afraid, I won't be able to support your point of view.

Time ago I too thought I was special, that I have some grand purpose. But I received rude awakening and understood, that there is only one constant in this life: CHAOS. And nothing else matters. There is no such things as justice or morals. All of those are man-made concepts and have nothing to do with universe.
I have understood my place in this universe. I hope one day you will understand it too.

However, even if your life has no objective meaning for the universe it doesn't mean that it is entirely worthless.

You are worthy to your friends, family, people who you love. Those are the things that worth living, not some GREAT PURPOSE given to you by psychopathic divine entities. You are special to those people.
Cherish it. Until it's too late.

That is all.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Aaand, once again, you fall into the same old tired pattern of treating the views of others as inferior to your own definition of "logic" and "reality". It's funny, but is it weren't for the fact that Zephram Cochran and the launch of the Phoenix wasn't still a couple of decades away, I'd almost swear you were a disguised Vulcan who is just a few years early to the party. They are almost as slavishly devoted to their logic too, whether or not it is practical, or even particularly applicable to the situation. Though at least when they do it, they fully understand what it actually entails. But honestly, such stubborn adherence to one view without even seeking alternate avenues of thinking while looking down one's nose at those who DO give open and honest thought to different ideas and beliefs, is not only severely limiting, but just might be the highest form of arrogance imaginable.

You talk about my arrogance, while having virtually no prove of your own point of view, while calling me names.

I hope irony is not lost on you.

Also, I don't see how admitting that chaos is the only constant, somehow "limiting".
If anything it is liberating.
As soon as you realize that you are not special and universe doesn't give a **** about you, you start cherish your own life here and now.

I hope you will take something useful from this text.

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Answer is simple: Chaos. Randomness.
In the system with billion+ possible outcomes you will receive billion+ possible outcomes.
Just like life itself has appeared due to random combination of elements being in the right place in the right time, so does everything else.

Where did the elements come from? Where did energy come from? How does it exist?

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

Where did the elements come from? Where did energy come from? How does it exist?

Elements are results of process that was behind origin of the universe. Sort of evolution of one elements into the other. Somewhat comparable to evolution of living beings from one form to the other.

Energy most likely comes from the Big Bang itself.

Energy in the universe always exists in the same amount, supposedly from the times of its birth. It doesn't go anywhere, just transforms from one state to the other.

[Machias Banshee]

I just want to stop in and remind everyone to keep the discourse civil. And NOT to drag other thread fights into this discussion.

This thread is being monitored.

~Machias

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Sumac

First and foremost - I have answered question you have asked.
Due to how you put out your question I have concentrated on the word "consciousness", so I have answered precisely that.
If you wanted to ask more - you should have made your question more clear and elaborated.
But apparently you love to blame others in sexism and "man-splaining", due to making slightly confusing argument. For your sake, I hope it's not how you usually argue with people.

But, at least you have went further than that and actually decided to ask your question again.
A bravery worthy of applause in this days of Internet!


Answer is simple: Chaos. Randomness.
In the system with billion+ possible outcomes you will receive billion+ possible outcomes.
Just like life itself has appeared due to random combination of elements being in the right place in the right time, so does everything else.


I know what are you talking about. And it all boils down to the simple fact: you are scared.
Scared of death.
Scared that your life has no meaning.

I've seen those arguments before, usually from religious people. And all of them boil down to intense desire to have meaning.
Because you are scared that everything you have done and everything you will do - is absolutely useless, will not make any difference whatsoever, and eventually will be lost in time.
This is one of the many reasons, why religions, despite being proven nothing but a collection of morally questionable fairy tales over and over again, still have followers.

People are afraid of loneliness. They are afraid of death. But most of all they are afraid of being meaningless.
Why in the most fictional stories aliens look like humans and humans usually depicted as a special race? A "chosen ones"?
Why humans give human qualities to animals?

And answer is simple: because, of inherent arrogance of human race. Humans desperately, sub-consciously want to be special. They want to be unique.

And when you tell them that their lives are nothing, but an outcome of natural system, mathematical equation, running on its own, with billions of possible outcomes they of course deny that.

"How can you even suggest that I am not SPECIAL?! How can I be just a human, one of many billions who lived, live and will live on this planet? That I don't have any special purpose?" - they say. You say.

But it is what it is.

You are not special.
Your life is not special.
You are just one of many humans who live on this planet.
You are and everything you ever done will be lost to time and won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.
Your decisions and your actions are nothing to the universe.
They don't change anything.

You are just a result of the meaningless system, that in itself a just accidental outcome of the fight for survival, that was waged on this planet by the living creatures over last millions of years.

That is all there is to you, to me, to anyone else.

And unless you give me undeniable prove, that this whole "system" is a result of conciouss design, I am afraid, I won't be able to support your point of view.

Time ago I too thought I was special, that I have some grand purpose. But I received rude awakening and understood, that there is only one constant in this life: CHAOS. And nothing else matters. There is no such things as justice or morals. All of those are man-made concepts and have nothing to do with universe.
I have understood my place in this universe. I hope one day you will understand it too.

However, even if your life has no objective meaning for the universe it doesn't mean that it is entirely worthless.

You are worthy to your friends, family, people who you love. Those are the things that worth living, not some GREAT PURPOSE given to you by psychopathic divine entities. You are special to those people.
Cherish it. Until it's too late.

That is all.


You talk about my arrogance, while having virtually no prove of your own point of view, while calling me names.

I hope irony is not lost on you.

Also, I don't see how admitting that chaos is the only constant, somehow "limiting".
If anything it is liberating.
As soon as you realize that you are not special and universe doesn't give a **** about you, you start cherish your own life here and now.

I hope you will take something useful from this text.

This is me laughing because you were so far off the mark there, sugarplum. You think I fear death, because I ask a question to which you have no answer? Wow. Just wow. Way to jump to conclusions there, pal. Not only are you "dead" wrong, but the truth is death is something I have NO fear of at all. I DO know my place in the universe, and am in fact completely at peace with my place in it, because I know that a part of me will live on in my daughter and her children and so on, but more importantly, because I am the universe, and the universe is me- long after my physical body is gone, my atoms and molecules will continue to exist, as part of everything else. In other words, I am literally one with everything. So there's my immortality, eh?

Do I care that anyone will remember me in a hundred years? No. My impact on the universe is constant, every time I breathe, and with everything I do, something is changed, no matter how small. Chaos, as you call it. I call it the Weave. And that is enough. Because in the end, everything I do is part of the pattern that exists in everything. That is my meaning and purpose. Do I fear death? No, because I have no REASON to! Death is only to be feared if one sees it as an end. I do not. I see it as simply a part of the cycle of life, and as such, I accept it as merely a transition into another form of matter. Why should I fear that? Only religious people whose faith TEACHES that death is bad or to be feared are afraid of dying. Nor do I fear being forgotten, because I know that I have still affected the world around me in many small ways, even if that is only by rescuing animals on occasion, exhaling a breath that becomes part of a wind that creates a storm, or providing people with breakfast and a smile every day. Those things may seem trivial to you, but they alter the lives of others in some way, which is all that matters.

You speak of Chaos theory as if it is the explanation for everything, yet you seem to forget that there is an underlying order even to chaos. Every action has a consequence, every force has its opposite, and the cycle of transmutation between matter and energy is one of the most basic fundamentals of physics. Chaos operates under rules, as does gravity or light. In other words, there is no chaos without order.

Also, you implied that I said you (or I) are "special", when in fact I said no such thing. I said UNIQUE, as in, your genetic code and set of molecules and specific structural shape have never existed before and can never be duplicated, in all the billions of years of evolution and chance. By your own admission, chance alone should allow for some patterns to be exactly replicated due to the infinite number of possible combinations, but it does not happen. Can you account for that? Neither can science.

Even Carl Sagan says that science and spirituality are not opposed. There is spiritual meaning in the vast cradle of stars that is a nebula, or the perfection of the equations that represent an atomic bond. Even the perfect order of an atom itself is deeply awe-inspiring in its simple elegance, yet you seem blind to the beauty of the universe and see only the sterile mechanics of creation. I pity you for having become so jaded and cynical that you can't even appreciate the innate beauty and wonder of a single molecule of water, and how amazing it is that we are all made of exactly the same material elements, yet each of us is still unique from every other. That is the truly incredible thing about science, that it can reveal secrets of the workings of the universe, while also deepening our connection to it. Sad that you seem to have missed that part. De Grassi says hi.

And nowhere have I called you names. I said that your sense of intellectual superiority over those whose views differ from yours is arrogant. Not remotely the same thing, sweetheart.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Well, in the grand scheme of things our world and our individual existences are insignificant.

For what if not just a tiny speck of sand our world, in a vast emptiness of Cosmos?


I disagree.
First, if you don't have evidences, then why I or anyone should believe you?
And second, in case of religions it's not only about absence of evidence, but presence of multiple evidences that religion is a lie, from first word to the last.

And what are you understanding as a macro-evolution?

So you believe that one species can evolve into the other, similar one, but say you don't believe that frog can evolve into lizard or bacteria can evolve into more complicated organism?
Because, believing in one and discarding the other doesn't make any sense, since they are using essentially the same mechanisms at its core.


He is a rude troll, who plays victim.
He can't stop - otherwise who's gonna feed his hungry babbling mouth?

Answered for post of Leonrado The Troll here:
Link
Let's see how this fake progressive is interested in discussion.

Well there is some evidence that give claim to certain stories of the Bible like the parting of the Red Sea. They have found Egyptian Chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea. There is also other claims that have some sort of evidence to give credence to stories.

As far as macro evolution, yes essentially I don't believe in species evolving into an entirely new species like Apes to Humans and the primary reason is from a lack of evidence. Basically I believe there should be some in-between species living today instead of just apes and humans.
But I do understand why that sounds weird, believing in macro, but not micro. lol

And as far as Bacteria they are far to different from mammals to be ancestors or mammals or any complex organism imo.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Elements are results of process that was behind origin of the universe. Sort of evolution of one elements into the other. Somewhat comparable to evolution of living beings from one form to the other.

Energy most likely comes from the Big Bang itself.

Energy in the universe always exists in the same amount, supposedly from the times of its birth. It doesn't go anywhere, just transforms from one state to the other.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it could not have come from the Big Bang. Energy can only change forms from my understanding. So our universe which is one of cause and effect so what was the initial cause of the Big Bang, energy and the universal elements of our universe???? A being outside of the universe of cause and effect. Thats one of the main reasons I believe in God.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

As far as macro evolution, yes essentially I don't believe in species evolving into an entirely new species like Apes to Humans and the primary reason is from a lack of evidence. Basically I believe there should be some in-between species living today instead of just apes and humans.

Not personally defending evolution as I don't believe in it, but just to point it out, that in the theory evolution, humans did not evolve from apes. Humans are apes.

It is a common misconception that in evolutionary theory, modern humans came from chimpanzees in Africa. That is not the case.

Instead, humans and Chimpanzees, as well as the great apes living today, share a common ancestor that diverged into the different species we see today. It would be more accurate to say in the evolutionary framework that modern humans are descendants of Homo Erectus and/or Australophiticines (extinct close relatives of humans).

Think of it this way, evolution is more of a web rather than a linear progression. Humans aren't the end of the line, the perfect species, but rather just one drop in an extremely large oceans of different type of organims.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Not personally defending evolution as I don't believe in it, but just to point it out, that in the theory evolution, humans did not evolve from apes. Humans are apes.

It is a common misconception that in evolutionary theory, modern humans came from chimpanzees in Africa. That is not the case.

Instead, humans and Chimpanzees, as well as the great apes living today, share a common ancestor that diverged into the different species we see today. It would be more accurate to say in the evolutionary framework that modern humans are descendants of Homo Erectus and/or Australophiticines (extinct close relatives of humans).

Think of it this way, evolution is more of a web rather than a linear progression. Humans aren't the end of the line, the perfect species, but rather just one drop in an extremely large oceans of different type of organims.

I'm impressed. Sumac should take notes.
So, given that you have a proper understanding of evolution, where does it fall down for you?

[ProactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Elements are results of process that was behind origin of the universe. Sort of evolution of one elements into the other. Somewhat comparable to evolution of living beings from one form to the other.

Energy most likely comes from the Big Bang itself.

Energy in the universe always exists in the same amount, supposedly from the times of its birth. It doesn't go anywhere, just transforms from one state to the other.

Sounds... made up. What existed before BB and how did it get there?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

"Chaos".

The answer is it occurred when a siper-dense and hot particle exploded. But the big question then becomes "What was this original particle, and where did it come from?" To which no real answer exists, though some scientists call it "the God particle". Without any sarcasm or irony implied. Make one wonder WHY science would call it that, no?

Though personally, i think of it more as the universal consciousness. As above, so below.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

"Chaos".

The answer is it occurred when a siper-dense and hot particle exploded. But the big question then becomes "What was this original particle, and where did it come from?" To which no real answer exists, though some scientists call it "the God particle". Without any sarcasm or irony implied. Make one wonder WHY science would call it that, no?

Though personally, i think of it more as the universal consciousness. As above, so below.

That's not true. The God particle is a reference to the Higgs Bosson, mislabeled by journalists as such, not by any physicists at CERN.

It is true that there isn't a consensus yet on what happened before the big bang, only that the universe is expanding at a faster than expected rate.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Hmm. I see, I had thought it refeerred to the original condensed matter that the universe began from. That was how I understood it described as, anyway. Exactly what is that? I try to keep up with new discoveries in that field, but some of it is confusing.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ProactiveMan

Sounds... made up. What existed before BB and how did it get there?

I think it's interesting to postulate that the universe is an infinite loop of Big Bang => Universe Expansion => Universe Retraction => Big Bang.

Infinite. Over and over again. Forever. No beginning, no end.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

This is me laughing because you were so far off the mark there, sugarplum. You think I fear death, because I ask a question to which you have no answer? Wow. Just wow. Way to jump to conclusions there, pal. Not only are you "dead" wrong, but the truth is death is something I have NO fear of at all...

OK, whatever makes you feel better, cutie pie.
Concept of such "immortality" sounds rather empty to me.

What about your individuality? Though, since you beliefs are apparently quite close to Buddhism, you might not need it, since as you believe, that you will return to being "one with the universe".

Personally "immortality without individuality" sounds shallow. Why I want to continue my existence without being "me"? How I would even know that I am exist and what would be the purpose of such "life" without self-awareness and desires? Existence nowhere for the sake of nothing without being aware of yourself as a person.
Sounds even worse than meaningless existence on the Earth here and now.

And even in case, if I will be able to preserve "myself" what I am gonna do with it? Endlessly stare at nothing? Sounds like fate worse than death and non-existence.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Do I care that anyone will remember me in a hundred years? No. My impact on the universe is constant, every time I breathe, and with everything I do, something is changed, no matter how small. Chaos, as you call it. I call it the Weave. And that is enough. Because in the end, everything I do is part of the pattern that exists in everything. That is my meaning and purpose. Do I fear death? No, because I have no REASON to!...

Such passionate speech.

Though I don't see how your "breaths" can influence the universe.
Yes, everything affects everything, but is there a chance that it will affect something in a meaningful way or will it be just some random meaningless occurrence, that won't change anything?
There goes your whole importance to the universe I am afraid.

Also, here we go back to the fact that accidents influence everything more than Order.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You speak of Chaos theory as if it is the explanation for everything, yet you seem to forget that there is an underlying order even to chaos. Every action has a consequence, every force has its opposite, and the cycle of transmutation between matter and energy is one of the most basic fundamentals of physics. Chaos operates under rules, as does gravity or light. In other words, there is no chaos without order.

Ah, now we are talking!

Of course, Order and Chaos co-exist, however, Order is born out of Chaos. But Universe, supposedly has started from giant explosion and for the first few moments there was no-rules. A Wild Wild West of Physics!!
As of now Universe follows set of rules, indeed, but actual events that occur here and now, that had occurred back in the past and will occur, are random.

Like when throwing a dice - it follows the basic rules of physics, but the outcome is unknown. So, while order is important as underlying system, in the end it is Chaos that decides everything.
Even if you know all rules of the nature, it won't make you able to predict an outcome of everything in the world. Unless you can clearly see reason-consequences links for every single possibility of every single of your actions, which is impossible.
So you can only beLIEve that your actions mean something.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Also, you implied that I said you (or I) are "special", when in fact I said no such thing. I said UNIQUE, as in, your genetic code and set of molecules...

Number of possibilities is so big, that possibility of duplicates is statistically even lower than possibility of receiving something UNIQUE. That is all.

In case of humans our differences decided by very small amount of factors, which has big number of possibilities, so, from this standpoint, we are not really unique and different. It's just our differences are so tiny and meaningless in the big picture, that there is no really "necessity" for doubles. We are duplicates already, with tiny little differences, which has big consequences, so to speak.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Even Carl Sagan says that science and spirituality are not opposed. There is spiritual meaning in the vast cradle of stars that is a nebula, or the perfection of the equations that represent an atomic bond. Even the perfect order of an atom itself is deeply awe-inspiring in its simple elegance, yet you seem blind to the beauty of the universe and see only the sterile mechanics of creation. I pity you for having become so jaded and cynical that you can't even appreciate the innate beauty and wonder of a single molecule of water, and how amazing it is that we are all made of exactly the same material elements, yet each of us is still unique from every other. That is the truly incredible thing about science, that it can reveal secrets of the workings of the universe, while also deepening our connection to it. Sad that you seem to have missed that part. De Grassi says hi.

As you have said before, I am laughing very hard due to you being so far off the mark.

I do appreciate beauty and I can find it everywhere. I just don't see necessity to ascribe it to meaningless spiritual babbling.

One doesn't need to believe in "spiritual links and weaves" to appreciate beauty of the atom. You can just appreciate and be in awe of how endless Chaos of nature was able to come up with something so structured.

In my turn, I pity you for your inability to appreciate beauty without ascribing it to some "higher ideas". Like a little child who can't think of world without magic, you still stuck in that mindset where you NEED magic to exist in the world, because, without it will be too boring and scary.

Rationality is not enemy of ability to appreciate beauty. On contrary, it enhances it, by virtue of appreciating a beauty without it being "polluted" by ridiculous ideas of creators and such.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Well there is some evidence that give claim to certain stories of the Bible like the parting of the Red Sea. They have found Egyptian Chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea. There is also other claims that have some sort of evidence to give credence to stories.

Some of those stories might had happened.
Actually a lot of old legends and mythos most likely based on historical events, which were later endlessly embellished with magical elements and co-opted to become part of the stories to easily sway less simpleminded parts of population.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

As far as macro evolution, yes essentially I don't believe in species evolving into an entirely new species like Apes to Humans and the primary reason is from a lack of evidence. Basically I believe there should be some in-between species living today instead of just apes and humans.
But I do understand why that sounds weird, believing in macro, but not micro. lol

I am sorry, but it's not only sounds weird, it sounds absolutely ridiculous. Especially in 2018.


If macro evolution didn't exist such things as hybridization and selection of livestock won't be possible. Also, I recommend to read about stages of development humans go while developing in the uterus. And generally read about evolution of species as a whole.

Your mindset about evolution of apes to humans is somewhere from 70-s years of XX century. Throughout the years there have been found dozens upon dozens proto-humans species. You've got archaeology evidence and genetic studies. What else do you need? Personally meet some "missing link" between apes and humans!?

There should not exist any "forms between humans and apes" simply because all of them has evolved into more evolved forms. And those who didn't evolved - have died. It's how it goes - you either evolve or die.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

And as far as Bacteria they are far to different from mammals to be ancestors or mammals or any complex organism imo.

Stating such non-sense in 2018 should be shameful.
Read. About. How. Evolution. Work.
Simple organisms evolve into more complex ones.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

snip

Or just old universe exploded and started a new one.
No psychotic deities involved...

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

I'm impressed. Sumac should take notes.
So, given that you have a proper understanding of evolution, where does it fall down for you?

Sorry, cheap troll, I have read about this back when I was 6 year old. But continue your toxic crusade, honeypot.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think it's interesting to postulate that the universe is an infinite loop of Big Bang => Universe Expansion => Universe Retraction => Big Bang.
Infinite. Over and over again. Forever. No beginning, no end.

This is where I am.
Endless cycle of recycling and repetition. Energy that never ends. Movement that never stops.