Shooting at high school in Parkland, Fla.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Throwing more legislation to better enforce existing legislature is a horrible idea.

How, please explain

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by PApagreg

How, please explain

Because where does it end? When the new legislation that enforces existing legislature fails, make even more legislation to enforce the enforcing legislature, too?

This is insanity.

[PApagreg]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Because where does it end? When the new legislation that enforces existing legislature fails, make even more legislation to enforce the enforcing legislature, too?

This is insanity.

So you're just making the slippery slope fallacy

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

There are a large amount of the populous who want to enact stricter gun laws, but whats the point if we can't enforce the gun laws we have now? We had a law that should have prohibited this individual from buying guns, but was not enforced.

This is where Gun Fandom/Community actually giving a damn and policing their own would have come in handy.

I knew a guy in college. Not a mentally healthy guy. Did a stint in a mental hospital. Decided he wanted a shot gun, and filled out the form honestly.

Owner of the store told him he couldn't sell to him, because he'd checked the box that said he'd been institutionalized.
The guy asked for a new form, the gun store owner gave him one, he didn't check that box...and walked out with his shot gun.

Over the weekend he blew off the back of his own head.
My ex, who was his roommate, found him several days later.

There is another large populous that wants to arm teachers, but if a trained professional can't adequately respond then how likely is a teacher able to respond?(May the two teachers who died shielding students rip )

I'd rather the teachers all be given solid door locks and door stops, than handguns. Because I'll be honest, I don't exactly trust the average police officer with a weapon. Especially those who haven't had combat training. It's all well and good to say how you think you'd react in a situation, but without ever having been in that situation....no one really knows.

And even people with the best training can still freeze.

I really REALLY like this two-part series from This American Life, regarding the police and gun violence.

Cops See It Differently - Part One
Cops See It Differently - Part Two

I think we need to look at how to better enforce our current gun laws and then pass common sense gun laws such as a universal background check.

I'd agree with this.
I'd agree more if there were an actual movement towards making schools safer. Say with funding to pay for social workers and counselors. People who could act on the whole: Ugh, this kid is creeping us all out, and we don't trust him with a backpack on campus. Maybe someone should talk to him? thing.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I'd rather the teachers all be given solid door locks and door stops, than handguns.

Maybe we could look at that as a solution for in progress shootings. Solid door locks with doors that can't be kicked in, some kind of drop-down kevlar curtains above all shootable-into windows?

It wouldn't be cheap but it would really only be a one-time investment.

[TurtleWA]

Trying to protect a school seems like trying to patch a boat with ten thousand holes. What’s stopping a shooter from going to a crowded sporting event with hundreds of people in the gymnasium seats. Or waiting after school in the parking lot when countless numbers of students go to their cars and busses. Or even getting on the school bus with all the students trapped like sitting ducks.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Trying to protect a school seems like trying to patch a boat with ten thousand holes. What’s stopping a shooter from going to a crowded sporting event with hundreds of people in the gymnasium seats. Or waiting after school in the parking lot when countless numbers of students go to their cars and busses. Or even getting on the school bus with all the students trapped like sitting ducks.

Hypothetical situations vs. an abundance of actual situations. Actual situations, seen on the regular: gunman goes inside school, shoots whoever they want uncontested for about 20+ minutes. Let's focus on that.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Trying to protect a school seems like trying to patch a boat with ten thousand holes. What’s stopping a shooter from going to a crowded sporting event with hundreds of people in the gymnasium seats. Or waiting after school in the parking lot when countless numbers of students go to their cars and busses. Or even getting on the school bus with all the students trapped like sitting ducks.

There's nothing stopping any of this.

The whole ship is sinking, protecting schools is trying to make sure at least this lifeboat gets away safely.

It all really comes down to risk assessment.
Having a gun does not magically make one's risk of harm turn to zero, it just changes the number a bit. And that bit really depends on which side of the barrel you happen to be on.

Which is why I think it's prudent for "Good Responsible Gun Owners" to have malpractice insurance. Because, it's only a matter of time before they get sued for shooting someone. And..."I didn't mean to hit you, I'm sorry," doesn't pay medical bills.

I'll be curious to see if the parents of the children who dies in Florida sue the school, or the city, for the inactions of the armed security guards.

[TurtleWA]

Florida only lasted 6 minuets the average school shooting lasts 12.5 minuets. Mass casualties before you even know what happened. Sad but true.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Florida only lasted 6 minuets the average school shooting lasts 12.5 minuets. Mass casualties before you even know what happened. Sad but true.

And for a very vocal portion of the Gun Fandom/Community, these are acceptable losses.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Which is why I think it's prudent for "Good Responsible Gun Owners" to have malpractice insurance.

Absolutely not, and absolutely never going to happen. That is shifting guns into the "Well, why can't we treat guns like cars?" territory which invariably shifts the argument to, "Guns are a right, cars are not," which just descends into the other group of people dusting off their mantras about "Guns aren't a right, you're reading the Second Amendment wrong!" And that doesn't go anywhere productive.

Because, it's only a matter of time before they get sued for shooting someone. And..."I didn't mean to hit you, I'm sorry," doesn't pay medical bills.

Again, better even a slim a possibility of defense and stopping a gunman's rampage than a 100% certainty they get a 20+ minute trip to their version of Disneyland in a school.

But no, obviously it wouldn't be on the student who got hit by the teacher's bullet to cough up the medical costs and nor would it be on the teacher. There might even be a case for suing the gunman or his estate. I mean, in a multi-car pileup, the insurance of the guy at the end of it all is the one that really gets hammered.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And for a very vocal portion of the Gun Fandom/Community, these are acceptable losses.

So, too, are about 90% of the liberals crying gun control, offering ZERO tangible solutions as to what to do in in progress school shootings. They only seem to enjoy spending a ton of time talking in great depth about what we can't, or shouldn't be doing to stop in progress shootings.

[TurtleWA]

I like the idea that off duty emergency professionals get alerts. But not sure yet what I think about the overall concept.

http://schoolguard.guard911.com

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And for a very vocal portion of the Gun Fandom/Community, these are acceptable losses.

Ive read repeatedly where you’ve essentially said the gun community is responsible for fixing this problem! That’s like saying I didn’t vote so Trump isn’t my problem he’s everyone else’s! It’s more fair to say we all need to fix this problem. Fixing it though would require a massive effort from everyone. I’ll give you that there are a lot of loud, obnoxious gun loving idiots that make it seem like they don’t care but of course they’ll always be given the most attention by the overbearing, agenda driven media! Contrary to what people believe the overwhelming majority of gun owners don’t want the violence to continue but the solutions being proposed won’t make much of a difference at all. We really need to fix people not guns!

It’s fair to say that a majority of these spree killers have mental illnesses that drive them to what they do right? So why don’t we say that it’s all up to the people with mental illness to fix this problem? That makes perfect sense! Oh wait of course it doesn’t because we are all in this together and finger pointing in one specific direction isn’t going to get anything done.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by joe-eyeball

Ive read repeatedly where you’ve essentially said the gun community is responsible for fixing this problem! That’s like saying I didn’t vote so Trump isn’t my problem he’s everyone else’s! It’s more fair to say we all need to fix this problem. Fixing it though would require a massive effort from everyone. I’ll give you that there are a lot of loud, obnoxious gun loving idiots that make it seem like they don’t care but of course they’ll always be given the most attention by the overbearing, agenda driven media! Contrary to what people believe the overwhelming majority of gun owners don’t want the violence to continue but the solutions being proposed won’t make much of a difference at all. We really need to fix people not guns!

I would like the majority of gun owners, the responsible ones that I keep quietly hearing about, to be louder. I'd like them to stop telling me that they aren't the problem, and start going after the people in their own community that are the problem.

And I don't think that's too much to ask.

I also don't think people who don't have an understanding of a thing should be allowed to legislate that thing. So I'd like these responsible gun owners to take the wheel when it comes to how we should be handling firearms.

The Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the right to bear arms does not come without restriction.

No one is stopping the Gun Fandom/Community from helping to fix people.
But as far as I can tell..."Fix people, not guns" is the new Thoughts and Prayers.
It's the thing that's said, but not acted on.

Pray for wind, Gun Community, but paddle for shore.

It’s fair to say that a majority of these spree killers have mental illnesses that drive them to what they do right? So why don’t we say that it’s all up to the people with mental illness to fix this problem? That makes perfect sense! Oh wait of course it doesn’t because we are all in this together and finger pointing in one specific direction isn’t going to get anything done.

I don't think that's fair at all, unless you have access to information in support of that claim. Do you have a citation that at least 51% of the mass shooters have a diagnosed mental illness?
Because if you do, I'd love to see it.

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I would like the majority of gun owners, the responsible ones that I keep quietly hearing about, to be louder. I'd like them to stop telling me that they aren't the problem, and start going after the people in their own community that are the problem.

And I don't think that's too much to ask.

I also don't think people who don't have an understanding of a thing should be allowed to legislate that thing. So I'd like these responsible gun owners to take the wheel when it comes to how we should be handling firearms.

The Supreme Court ruled in 2008 that the right to bear arms does not come without restriction.

No one is stopping the Gun Fandom/Community from helping to fix people.
But as far as I can tell..."Fix people, not guns" is the new Thoughts and Prayers.
It's the thing that's said, but not acted on.

Pray for wind, Gun Community, but paddle for shore.



I don't think that's fair at all, unless you have access to information in support of that claim. Do you have a citation that at least 51% of the mass shooters have a diagnosed mental illness?
Because if you do, I'd love to see it.

There a plenty of people in the gun community that want the violence to end but most of them don’t believe at all that things like: universal background checks, banning certain guns, gun confiscation, or just passing more legislation will make a damn bit of difference! You also made comment about people shouldn’t be able to legislate a thing that they don’t understand! Well that works both ways because I haven’t seen or heard of very many anti gun people that know a damn thing about guns but they sure do want to legislate them to hell and back!

I never said diagnosed mental illness but I apply common sense to these situations that these people aren’t happy, normal, well adjusted at or around the time they are committing these horrific acts! Do you believe people of absolute sound mind are doing the majority of these shootings? I for one do not! I also understand that people who were once happy and well adjusted have breaking points and are capable of such things but it’s probably fair to say some sort of mental crisis has occurred for someone to cause such carnage! It’s also probably fair to say that their “mental break”didn’t occur overnight!

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by joe-eyeball

There a plenty of people in the gun community that want the violence to end but most of them don’t believe at all that things like: universal background checks, banning certain guns, gun confiscation, or just passing more legislation will make a damn bit of difference! You also made comment about people shouldn’t be able to legislate a thing that they don’t understand! Well that works both ways because I haven’t seen or heard of very many anti gun people that know a damn thing about guns but they sure do want to legislate them to hell and back!

That...is my point exactly.
That if people who don't like guns actually took their nods from people who like, and know about guns, we might be able to find common ground and draft effective legislation that's amenable to both parties.

That maybe these people who don't like the violence, but still like guns, could come up with ideas, and maybe use their time and money to lobby...or better still run for office.

Rather than sit there in a defeatist slump and not do anything.
Because...while they may not like the violence, their not doing anything about it allows people in their own community to make their community look like a bunch of d-bags.

I would say that makes them complicit, but that's me.

I never said diagnosed mental illness but I apply common sense to these situations that these people aren’t happy, normal, well adjusted at or around the time they are committing these horrific acts! Do you believe people of absolute sound mind are doing the majority of these shootings? I for one do not! I also understand that people who were once happy and well adjusted have breaking points and are capable of such things but it’s probably fair to say some sort of mental crisis has occurred for someone to cause such carnage! It’s also probably fair to say that their “mental break”didn’t occur overnight!

Being unhappy is not the same thing as having a mental illness.
Just like being depressed is not the same thing as having depression.

It's unwise to equate the two.

And yeah...I do think neuro-typical people are capable of doing these sorts of, because if they weren't...then what does that say about our Military or our Police Forces?
Are they entirely composed of mentally ill, or non-neurotypical people?

That's an interesting hill to defend.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

And yeah...I do think neuro-typical people are capable of doing these sorts of, because if they weren't...then what does that say about our Military or our Police Forces?

Can you say more about this? I don’t understand.

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

That...is my point exactly.
That if people who don't like guns actually took their nods from people who like, and know about guns, we might be able to find common ground and draft effective legislation that's amenable to both parties.

That maybe these people who don't like the violence, but still like guns, could come up with ideas, and maybe use their time and money to lobby...or better still run for office.

Rather than sit there in a defeatist slump and not do anything.
Because...while they may not like the violence, their not doing anything about it allows people in their own community to make their community look like a bunch of d-bags.

I would say that makes them complicit, but that's me.



Being unhappy is not the same thing as having a mental illness.
Just like being depressed is not the same thing as having depression.

It's unwise to equate the two.

And yeah...I do think neuro-typical people are capable of doing these sorts of, because if they weren't...then what does that say about our Military or our Police Forces?
Are they entirely composed of mentally ill, or non-neurotypical people?

That's an interesting hill to defend.

I am actually curious as to what you believe that “common ground”would include?

Also “mental illness” is a bit of wide sweeping term. It’s certainly not limited to people that are just diagnosed with a mental illness! Your comment regarding military and police is kind of ridiculous! Again the majority of them are simply doing the job they were trained, instructed/ordered to do and for the most part the methods they employ are accepted by the community at large. I get that you’re trying to say a soldier may be committing horrible acts over in some other country but in his mind he or she is doing it for their country or following orders. Of course there are always exceptions and I’m fine with saying any soldier or member of law enforcement that flies off the handle and goes to far can and should be held accountable and if they are referred to as having a mental break or mental illness then so be it.

Just for the record I understand and believe that that most people with mental conditions never harm themselves or anyone else and that by using the term mentally ill in regards to these killers could cause harm to mentally ill people that pose absolutely no threat at all.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

That...is my point exactly.
That if people who don't like guns actually took their nods from people who like, and know about guns, we might be able to find common ground and draft effective legislation that's amenable to both parties.

We can do that, but I'd rather spend that energy -- for now, until we have a solution, or even a half measure -- on protecting kids' lives in the schools right now. Not later on. Right now. That should be the priority and I kind of have to question the true agendas of folks of whom have a different priority than that.

Kids Lives > Gun Removal Agenda/Let's Talk New Gun Legislature/Etc.

Why is this even a question?

When the kids are safe (or safer, at least) we can go to the table about "fixing" gun control. Preferably when people are acting less out of emotion and -- in a lot of cases (I'm not saying yours) -- largely uneducated irrationality.

[joe-eyeball]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We can do that, but I'd rather spend that this energy -- for now, until we have a solution, or even a half measure -- on protecting kids' lives in the schools right now. Not later on. Right now. That should be the priority and I kind of have to question the true agendas of folks of whom have a different priority than that.

Kids Lives > Gun Removal Agenda/Let's Talk New Gun Legislature/Etc.

Why is this even a question?

When the kids are safe (or safer, at least) we can go to the table about "fixing" gun control. Preferably when people are acting less out of emotion and -- in a lot of cases (I'm not saying yours) -- largely uneducated irrationality.

I agree with everything you are saying here.