Donatello's scientific knowledge and engineering skills

[Prowler]

When you think about it, isn't Donatello the turtle that's the hardest to buy when it comes to their strong points? I mean, Leonardo is the most skilled fighter and the leader. But again, all of the 4 Turtles are ninjas and know how to fight. One had to be the best one. So hardly anything strange about that. Michelangelo and Raphael usually have the strongest and most memorable personalities, but even a mutated turtle can learn martial arts, I don't think it's unfeasible at all for them to learn how to skateboard, play video games, surf, tell jokes every 3 minutes, etc. Nothing about their characters is hard to buy except maybe Mike being too chicken or too immature and stupid at times.

But Donatello... aren't his technological feats quite unbelievable for a Turtle who spend his entire life living in a sewer? The knowledge needed to build trans-dimensional portals, vans, big af pizza machines, cloning devices, etc. isn't knowledge/skill you can just self-teach yourself like a foreign language or learning about history. You'd need to actually attend university and obtain a degree. And engineering degrees are some of the hardest around. And it doesn't seem like Donatello only specialises in one field of engineering. No. He seems to be a great computer, mechanical and chemical engineer. I guess he's not into civil engineering...

Yes, I know it's a cartoon/comic, wtv. And one of the guys had to be the "science/nerd" one. But are we supposed to buy the "Donatello just picked up a few books and learned all of that by himself in a year or so" explanation? In the FW series in particular, Donatello is practically the leader. If he didn't exist then the Turtles would have died by episode 2 or 3. Seems like Donatello is the most important Turtle when you think about it. Especially considering the fact that sci-fi is one of the genres that TMNT falls under.

Thoughts?

[Andrew NDB]

Only negative ones, outside of my thoughts for Donatello in Mirage.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Only negative ones, outside of my thoughts for Donatello in Mirage.

I don't like how Donatello seems to be generally written as the worst fighter of the group. So a guy who knows math and science quite well can't be a good fighter? In the FW series at least he had some edge to him and some temper. But in the 2k3 series he lost that and just became "the nerd".

[Powder]

I kinda hate the whole boy genius thing with Don. If it's done super absurdly as comic relief in a series where it is "appropriate", like Rise or the OT, it can be OK, I guess, but on a whole, it really takes me out of things, even if they are already in a wildly unrealistic world. In Mirage it's barely played up at all, in comparison, with there being more emphasis on Don's other personality traits, that usually aren't given much attention elsewhere. He often isolates himself, gets wrapped up in deeper meanings, subject to morally questionable things in the pursuit of knowledge, etc. Much more interesting.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Powder

I kinda hate the whole boy genius thing with Don. If it's done super absurdly as comic relief in a series where it is "appropriate", like Rise or the OT, it can be OK, I guess, but on a whole, it really takes me out of things, even if they are already in a wildly unrealistic world.

They just need one of the boys to design and build all those toy vehicles. Some of them are pretty cool!

[IMJ]

A good writer could justify this by explaining that Donatello is more like an entrepreneur than an inventive scientist. That is to say that he takes the existing tech that he finds and repurposes it into whatever he needs.

So in terms of science-fiction-logic it is much more feasible to take an existing "trans-dimensional-portal-generator" part and repurpose it into a different shape or small tool than it is to understand all of the science and design the same thing from the ground-up.

[CyberCubed]

I also like how Don can somehow work alien technology that he’s never seen before like Utrom or Triceraton tech and somehow read alien language and learn how to create portals and fly spaceships that he’s never done before.

[PApagreg]

I kinda liked what IDW did when it comes to Donatello's intelligence, you can tell he has a natural aptitude in mechanical, electrical and computer engineering but he doesn't build things that are too advance like all the animated incarnations have him doing.

[Andrew NDB]

He's a lazy writer's crutch, 99.9% of the time in everything but Mirage.

[victory_angel]

The way I've always seen it is Leo and Donnie are essentually two sides of the same coin. Leonardo follows tradition and believes the skills they were taught by Splinter are the correct skills. Donnie is innovative and always seems to have a desire to know and understand the world around him.

And with the battles they fact, the Traditional skills aren't always effective so they have to have someone fill an innovative role to help stop the issue at hand.

In most cases Leo as a tolerant view towards Donnie's technical skills because they do have their uses and he has pointed out there have been numerous moments where they would have lost if Donnie wasn't there. It's only in the 2k12 version that their mindsets are actually shown clashing. So much of the time in that incarnation, Leo tends to look at Donnie's inventions on an as-needed basis. So if it's something he feels is useful he will quite gladly accept his brother's contribution. But other times he only sees the danger the thing potentially poses for their family and doesn't bother considering the benefits because, in his eyes, it's just not worth the risk. And yes there are moments he goes off on his brother about how his lab skills are too much of a distraction when he should be focused on the skills Splinter had taught them.

It's only when they put their differences aside and combine their gifts that they are able to turn the tide of any battle.

I agree with someone pointing out he could be more of an entrepreneur rather than an inventive scientist. On the surface, a lot of the things he creates are meant to help his family. But the stuff he creates also is intended to help benefit human and mutant kind.
Such as in Fast Forward, it's pointed out that Donnie/April/Case started a Philanthropic company together and that helped make the city a place where humans/mutants/and aliens could live together in peace.

[IndigoErth]

It would have made more sense had the internet existed back in the 80s. Some inquisitive people can read and learn and self teach themselves a lot of things, and heck, some 10-year-olds are gifted enough to go to college early. But all on his own without useful tools like the internet to aid him, esp with lack of access to any other learning materials... realistically, yeah, it's a bit hard to swallow. At best maybe he'd happen across some old college textbooks and other useful ones sometimes.

Being able to build literally anything (*cough* '87 series' trackers for damn near anything in existence, etc -- someone stole your cookie jar? Donnie would have a tracker for that! You know he would.), and out of what exactly, is a bit harder to accept.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I always felt sorry for Archie Donatello. First, in Japan, comes a demon from Japanese folklore, then some deities of a Japanese religion. Then in Tibet, the turtles encounter walking skeletons. Finally, Charlie Lama seems to be re-born. Everything he probably would never believe in pops up within a few issues.

[Galactus]

Y'know I never really thought it was that bad in most versions.

Even in the Fred Wolf series his early inventions like the Turtle Van, the Blimp, the Cheapskate etc had deliberately outlandish design aesthetics but they were not exactly ultra advanced stuff that he couldn't possibly build with the knowledge and skills that would be available to him. The first two are basically made of stuff Baxter Stockman had laying around, he just welded it together and put some turtle stickers on it.

It wasn't until Season 3 that I think we started getting truly sci fi stuff from scratch with Don building his own portal and the like. I would put stuff down to acquiring a working knowledge of Dimension-X and other advanced alien tech in the previous two seasons.

Ironically the more grounded 2K3 show had him with the flying (or hover) car almost right from the get go. That being said a hover car isn't some impossible dream. Ones are already built they are just not commercially available. Like the 80s show his inventions became more advanced the more experience he got with advanced alien tech, heck more than once he

Not to beat a dead horse but the Platinum Dunes movies is were I really had to roll my eyes. Don's tech in the first movie seemed too advanced for my liking but the second movie is were it really gets stupid. Scanners that can deduce the extra dimensional purpose of tech that used to be there, being able to hack into the Technodrome to find out its name and who commands it but conveniently can't reprogram it to go back home.

Originally Posted by Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

I always felt sorry for Archie Donatello. First, in Japan, comes a demon from Japanese folklore, then some deities of a Japanese religion. Then in Tibet, the turtles encounter walking skeletons. Finally, Charlie Lama seems to be re-born. Everything he probably would never believe in pops up within a few issues.

You could also add in his encounter with time travelling spirit that he encountered at Columbus' landfall which seemed much more mystical in nature.

I think that was a theme of the Archie series Donatello that he was expanding his mind which culminated in him bonding with the Turnstone. I would have been interested to see were he would have gone past that.

[pferreira]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Being able to build literally anything (*cough* '87 series' trackers for damn near anything in existence, etc -- someone stole your cookie jar? Donnie would have a tracker for that! You know he would.), and out of what exactly, is a bit harder to accept.

To be fair most of Don's inventions in the FW series were flawed and often didn't work properly.

[Prowler]

Just think about of all the awards and prestige that FW Donatello would achieve if he was human. He'd win the physics nobel prize every year.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Just think about of all the awards and prestige that FW Donatello would achieve if he was human. He'd win the physics nobel prize every year.

Funnily enough, he and Raphael were the turtles who loathed humanity the most, because of the media often portraying them as a menance at many points in the FW series, despite how many times the turtles saved the day.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Funnily enough, he and Raphael were the turtles who loathed humanity the most, because of the media often portraying them as a menance at many points in the FW series, despite how many times the turtles saved the day.

Yes, that's another thing that made both of them my favourites in that series. Also, Donatello and Raphael are also the favourite turtles of Laird and Eastman, iirc.

[Donnie]

Originally Posted by Prowler

The knowledge needed to build trans-dimensional portals, vans, big af pizza machines, cloning devices, etc. isn't knowledge/skill you can just self-teach yourself like a foreign language or learning about history. You'd need to actually attend university and obtain a degree. And engineering degrees are some of the hardest around. And it doesn't seem like Donatello only specialises in one field of engineering. No. He seems to be a great computer, mechanical and chemical engineer. I guess he's not into civil engineering...

This made me chuckle. You need a degree to properly study and write history. There's a ton of history lovers/enthusiasts out there, but in order to truly write history, you need to be formally educated. Deciding how to craft your argument in alignment with primary source material and accurate secondary material is a scientific process in and of itself, hence why it is called a social science.

Your question is an interesting one, and I think as a kid, with Don being my favorite, I didn't give it a second thought in the FW cartoon. I always gave it a pass due to its medium. Nowadays, I agree that most of the tech he built (granted, like someone said, not all of his inventions worked) in the FW cartoon was a bit hard to believe, compared to real-world standards.

In recent years I also tackled the question of "which science does Donatello excel at, or specialize in?" and the varied mediums treat this question so differently that it's hard to pinpoint an answer. He has unbelievable working knowledge of engineering and robotics, chemistry, physics, earth science, biology. He's no dummy in history, either, as seen in the TMNT III movie, you can tell he has a rudimentary knowledge of historical events and past cultures. I think he is most skilled at engineering, as this seems to be an interest of his across all mediums.

Lots of praise for Mirage Donatello here, and I see why, but let's not forget that in Vol. 1 #12 Don removed a plutonium core from a bomb. That's a pretty advanced skill, despite no formal training. In some ways, Mirage treated him as overly smart, too. It's just not as grandiose as in the cartoon due to its medium.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Donnie

This made me chuckle. You need a degree to properly study and write history. There's a ton of history lovers/enthusiasts out there, but in order to truly write history, you need to be formally educated. Deciding how to craft your argument in alignment with primary source material and accurate secondary material is a scientific process in and of itself, hence why it is called a social science.

Your question is an interesting one, and I think as a kid, with Don being my favorite, I didn't give it a second thought in the FW cartoon. I always gave it a pass due to its medium. Nowadays, I agree that most of the tech he built (granted, like someone said, not all of his inventions worked) in the FW cartoon was a bit hard to believe, compared to real-world standards.

In recent years I also tackled the question of "which science does Donatello excel at, or specialize in?" and the varied mediums treat this question so differently that it's hard to pinpoint an answer. He has unbelievable working knowledge of engineering and robotics, chemistry, physics, earth science, biology. He's no dummy in history, either, as seen in the TMNT III movie, you can tell he has a rudimentary knowledge of historical events and past cultures. I think he is most skilled at engineering, as this seems to be an interest of his across all mediums.

Lots of praise for Mirage Donatello here, and I see why, but let's not forget that in Vol. 1 #12 Don removed a plutonium core from a bomb. That's a pretty advanced skill, despite no formal training. In some ways, Mirage treated him as overly smart, too. It's just not as grandiose as in the cartoon due to its medium.

I didn't mean to devalue history, humanities or make it seem like anyone can become a great historian easily. In fact, I'm awful at maths and physics myself and have always been more of a humanities person.

My point was, most people could pick up some history books and get a good grasp of history to a point where you're able to have good discussions and arguments with people about it even if you're not a historian, a teacher or any sort of expert. I don't think that's possible with engineering and advanced maths and physics, which are much more practical subjects. Plus, in history some stuff such as time and place of events and emperor names, etc. only require memorisation. Engineering, advanced maths and physics require much more than that. A lot more people struggle with such subjects than with history, and engineering degrees are widely considered to be some of the hardest university degrees to obtain.

Of course you need to have a good grasp of language to write a good history paper, but there's more literate people out there than people who excel at maths and physics. Maths is also a language, but requires a lot of work and a lot of people just can't do it beyond a certain stage.

That being said, there's obviously different types of intelligence. I've certainly met engineers who weren't particularly bright, despite their mathematics skills being better than your average person. Just like I've met my fair share of intelligent people who weren't good at maths and physics. If you're a historian, a political scientist, a sociologist, etc. you need to understand what you study and explain it those who'll read your published works. Just like an artist needs to be able to get their point across through their art.

[The Great Saiyaman]

It's funny, going over this thread made me realize that none of the people who replied took in account THIS Donatello.

Because the 2012 Donnie is shown taking broken down Kraang droids into the sewers and reverse engineering them. He also made the Shellraiser out of Leatherhead's subway car, again using reverse engineered Kraang technology.

That it not always worked out the way he intended and a lot of it was trial and error is also depicted with that version of Donatello. The Spy vehicle inside a dumpster with a toilet attached is an example and Timothy/Mutagen Man is another.

Thus making the reason on how he became a mechanical genius a lot more believable. It wasn't just there from day one, he had to put in a lot of work and failures to get where he ended up.

But that's not all, because 2012 Donnie is still a highly skilled martial artist.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/a183da3e...3jqo1_1280.jpg
Donnie defeating Victor Falco (The Ratking) by fighting without thinking so Falco can't read his mind.

AND the 2012 Donatello has an addition to his Bo-staff which makes him just as deadly as Leonardo with his swords.

A Naginata is quite the dangerous weapon, since it can be used as a spear but also as a sword.

He certainly wasn't the worst fighter of the team in this incarnation.