LGBT in TMNT

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Cause it's everywhere.

IDK, it's funny in a way. A few years back I don't recall a single black dude saying they wish (insert whatever fandom here) had more black people in it unless it was something that would have made sense, like say X-Men (Storm) or Blade or whatever that actually had black people in it. Not that long ago everyone wants at least one gay character in everything. Recently there's been a bigger emphasis in female led series, even if it means replacing a male lead, and to be honest even when the Spike Girls were a thing and they were all about Girl Power, we didn't have female ghostbusters or 'women-only showings' back then like we do now. Now it's everything must have at least one trans character in everything.

I wonder what's next? Will the furry fandom finally take over and demand that every form of entertainment now has at least one furry character in it.

It really does seem these days there is at least one gay character in every show or movie now. I'm honestly hard pressed to remember any modern show where there isn't one.

These days EVERYONE is gay so it's not out of the ordinary but still.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

These days EVERYONE is gay so it's not out of the ordinary but still.

Wait a minute...

Cubed, are YOU gay?

Bro. What about Melissa!?

[CyberCubed]

I was born in the 80's so I can't be gay.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I was born in the 80's so I can't be gay.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I was born in the 80's so I can't be gay.

You've seen the 80's mustaches, right?

[Leo656]

I don't even care, that line is so ridiculously bullsh*t absurd that I am absolutely stealing it.

That MIGHT be the funniest Cubed line ever. Holy sh*t. I'm actually rather impressed.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I was born in the 80's so I can't be gay.

What? I can't tell if you're serious or joking half the time, but here I don't even understand what the joke would be.

[skylord]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Cause it's everywhere.

IDK, it's funny in a way. A few years back I don't recall a single black dude saying they wish (insert whatever fandom here) had more black people in it unless it was something that would have made sense, like say X-Men (Storm) or Blade or whatever that actually had black people in it...

I think there's a pretty big difference between black representation and LGBT representation in media. Good black representation in mass media predates the internet but you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of good mainstream representation of LGBT people before the popularity of the internet.

tokenism still exists for black people and its still pretty damn lazy when it happens. Still there exists several pieces of mainstream media that is predominantly black. Fresh Prince, Sister Sister, and The Cosby Show (ignoring how its tainted now, it was important at the time of course). This quality representation comes and goes but even just recently Black Panther was a huge success.

LGBT media is leagues behind as far as mainstream representation goes. I personally don't see a problem with a handful of LGBT characters in most media. We're not getting an LGBT black panther anytime soon. What's wrong with a character here and there?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by skylord

LGBT media is leagues behind as far as mainstream representation goes. I personally don't see a problem with a handful of LGBT characters in most media. We're not getting an LGBT black panther anytime soon. What's wrong with a character here and there?

I think the biggest problem with the LGBT representation in comics, etc., is that lately there is a push for it to be... misrepresentation. As in, the representation that is being pushed distorts the truth and makes it seem like 1 in 5 people is LGBT... which simply isn't the case. It isn't even close to that number.

I'm OK with representation (though I definitely don't think a story -- whether it is a comic book or a movie or a TV show -- gets bonus points just because they shoved Diversity into it). But it has to actually be representative of reality.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think the biggest problem with the LGBT representation in comics, etc., is that lately there is a push for it to be... misrepresentation. As in, the representation that is being pushed distorts the truth and makes it seem like 1 in 5 people is LGBT... which simply isn't the case. It isn't even close to that number.

I'm OK with representation (though I definitely don't think a story -- whether it is a comic book or a movie or a TV show -- gets bonus points just because they shoved Diversity into it). But it has to actually be representative of reality.

That and make actual new gay characters, don't make long-established straight characters that have had multiple partners suddenly wake up and realize they're gay just because that's the flavor of the sjw diversity virtue victim points of the month.

[skylord]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think the biggest problem with the LGBT representation in comics, etc., is that lately there is a push for it to be... misrepresentation. As in, the representation that is being pushed distorts the truth and makes it seem like 1 in 5 people is LGBT... which simply isn't the case. It isn't even close to that number.

I'm OK with representation (though I definitely don't think a story -- whether it is a comic book or a movie or a TV show -- gets bonus points just because they shoved Diversity into it). But it has to actually be representative of reality.

While there certainly is overrepresentation of LGBT people in media in comparison to real life numbers, 1 in 5 is a bit of an overstatement. there is a marketing spin for LGBT inclusion and that definitely makes it feel like the numbers are more inflated. I dislike LGBT marketing generally. Oreos keeps trying to sell me rainbow cookies but **** you Nabisco.

and so I'm not just talking out my ass, GLAAD found in 2019 that 10.2% of regular characters in scripted primetime television were LGBT.
https://www.glaad.org/whereweareontv19

I also have to ask if it's actually important if numbers represent reality. Men have a larger share of media representation than women despite there being less men than women in the world. In the US, Hispanics are sharply underrepresented based on their US population numbers. Media has never truly represented reality.

If LGBT numbers were accurate to their real life counterpart, it would be harder for LGBT people to find representation. Let's say LGBT people make up 5% of the US (that's larger than the actual number but just go with me here.) A 5% increase in representation doubles their representation. Non-LGBT representation drops from 95% to 90%. Ultimately one group makes major gains for a minimal loss in the other. A group of people that may ultimately need more representation. there's plenty of studies that show good representation uplifts minority groups.

and yeah not gonna give a standing ovation every time Disney announces their "first gay character". Bad representation has to exist for good representation to be noticeable though. After all, there's plenty of godawful straight characters. Just makes the good ones stand out much more.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

That and make actual new gay characters, don't make long-established straight characters that have had multiple partners suddenly wake up and realize they're gay just because that's the flavor of the sjw diversity virtue victim points of the month.

I will not defend certain stories (iceman being infamous of course) but it all depends on context. The development of the story, how you make it work with existing canon. I think a previously straight character can find out their bi and that can be handled pretty easily. Going full gay is harder but it can be done, it's just typically a trainwreck. In the case of a universe reboot, I don't see a reason why a character shouldn't be allowed to be LGBT. It doesn't erase the previous incarnation.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I'm OK with representation (though I definitely don't think a story -- whether it is a comic book or a movie or a TV show -- gets bonus points just because they shoved Diversity into it). But it has to actually be representative of reality.

I would argue that it doesn't have to be representative of reality.

It just needs to be well-written and intelligent. Meaningful. Not checking a box.

Humanity isn't a box of chocolates. You shouldn't just go down your cast list thinking "Okay, got me a gay, a lesbian, a black guy, a girl, a Mexican, and my token white guy. Am I missing anything?"

And at the same time, if you're looking at a box of nothing but Roman Nougats, you should probably change that up and make it more interesting.

"This cast is nothing but white dudes. Is that because they HAVE to be white dudes, or am I just being lazy and need to think about this some more?"

But writing intelligent, meaningful, GOOD stories and characters is hard. Much easier just to tick off all the boxes and assemble a nice box of diversity chocolates.

[Leo656]

I also think it's a bit less important to have X number of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gay/straight/bi/lesbian etc. characters. All of that is incidental.

The important thing is that they be good-looking. Life's too short to be forced to look at ugly people in fiction when Real Life already has that problem.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The important thing is that they be good-looking. Life's too short to be forced to look at ugly people in fiction when Real Life already has that problem.

Are you telling me that Barbie movie with Melissa McCarthy headlining will never make money?

Or was it Amy Schumer? I forget...

[Leo656]

It was Amy Schumer, and for all that's been said I have seen her occasionally look kinda hot in brief spurts. Not for a while, but a few years ago, yeah.

What I'm telling you is that Rebel Wilson only has a career in films because Lefties took over the media and now we all have to deal with it. That sh*t can f*ck right off.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by skylord

I will not defend certain stories (iceman being infamous of course) but it all depends on context. The development of the story, how you make it work with existing canon. I think a previously straight character can find out their bi and that can be handled pretty easily. Going full gay is harder but it can be done, it's just typically a trainwreck. In the case of a universe reboot, I don't see a reason why a character shouldn't be allowed to be LGBT. It doesn't erase the previous incarnation.

It doesn't work that way in [CURRENT YEAR]: people behind those "inclusions" as well as their handmaidens, like to constantly remind everyone that THEIR new and DIVERSE version of the character is the only ONE that MATTERS. That all past iterations were made by EVIL STRAIGHT WHITE MEN in the time where women were walking incubators and blacks were working on plantations (1980s) and thus should be seen with disdain and shame.
And if you like old version of the character more than the new one, you are super nazi evil bigot hitler. No less.

And if you say that you don't like not the new iteration of the character, but a story and how they were written, you are still super evil nazi hitler with internalized racism / sexism / whatever and should dedicate time to educate yourself about your racist ways to repent for the greater future, spearheaded by your new socialist masters from Google and Apple and BLM.

Of course, I embellish few things, but that's the level of discourse now. So, excuse me, if people are wary of creators talking about "inclusion" and "diversity" and new versions of characters.

Personally, if you want to make a gay character, make a new one. If you are talented it'll work.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I wonder what's next? Will the furry fandom finally take over and demand that every form of entertainment now has at least one furry character in it.

They are pushing for trans now.
Which is both sad and hilarious.

[Leo656]

Oh Lord, tell me about it, with that kinda stuff and the propaganda inherent. For one example, the smug judgmental nonsense from "new" She-Ra fans after the Netflix fiasco towards "original flavor" She-Ra fans was the absolute pits.

That show and the entire debacle was a perfect example of someone maaaaybe having good intentions somewhere but taking it entirely too far by about ten miles. When the showrunner literally and without irony told the producers that "the gay agenda" was the show's entire raison d'etre, someone really. seriously should have stepped in. Especially when that same person reasoned, "She-Ra cannot be 'conventionally attractive' because sexualization has no place in a kids show"... and then proceeded to make almost every single main character gay, bi, or trans. So, She-Ra can't have boobs, because that is "Selling sex to kids", but the entire show's plot can be resolved in the series finale with a girl-on-girl kiss and your kids can see that and it's Perfectly Fine. "Gay Love Can Save The Universe" can be your show's ENTIRE point, and that's fine for kids. But She-Ra can't be curvy or wear a short skirt, THAT is dangerous and "toxic".

I mean, this is why most people don't take that sh*t seriously. Their transparency shows through so easily. It's not really about anything except "getting even" with people and "salty fanboy tears" and all that. And then they wonder why some people tell them to cram it.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Oh Lord, tell me about it, with that kinda stuff and the propaganda inherent. For one example, the smug judgmental nonsense from "new" She-Ra fans after the Netflix fiasco towards "original flavor" She-Ra fans was the absolute pits.

That show and the entire debacle was a perfect example of someone maaaaybe having good intentions somewhere but taking it entirely too far by about ten miles. When the showrunner literally and without irony told the producers that "the gay agenda" was the show's entire raison d'etre, someone really. seriously should have stepped in. Especially when that same person reasoned, "She-Ra cannot be 'conventionally attractive' because sexualization has no place in a kids show"... and then proceeded to make almost every single main character gay, bi, or trans. So, She-Ra can't have boobs, because that is "Selling sex to kids", but the entire show's plot can be resolved in the series finale with a girl-on-girl kiss and your kids can see that and it's Perfectly Fine. "Gay Love Can Save The Universe" can be your show's ENTIRE point, and that's fine for kids. But She-Ra can't be curvy or wear a short skirt, THAT is dangerous and "toxic".

I mean, this is why most people don't take that sh*t seriously. Their transparency shows through so easily. It's not really about anything except "getting even" with people and "salty fanboy tears" and all that. And then they wonder why some people tell them to cram it.

Legit. The showrunner behind NuShe-Ra literally said the entire reason she made the show was for that kiss between the female leads (good and evil). If Netflix or whoever gave her a hard no to that, the series would never have been made.

I recently found out there was some weird new Sailor Moon-type cartoon that looks like pure SJW to the max, to the point where one of the villains looks like Trump (like c'mon, I don't like the guy either, but waaaaaay too on the nose y'all). Someone commented that this is why these crackpots take pre-existing properties and **** them up with their ideologies, because whenever they try to make something 100% original you get **** like that magic friendship show.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

That and make actual new gay characters, don't make long-established straight characters that have had multiple partners suddenly wake up and realize they're gay just because that's the flavor of the sjw diversity virtue victim points of the month.

Here's the way it works right now:

Step #1: Make a longstanding heterosexual character gay.

Step #2: Wait for backlash from the fans.

Step #3: Put out articles and interviews pointing the finger back at the fans, that they're bigots and they're the REAL snowflakes! Also, the haters are not true fans, and how "Important" what they're doing is, and so on.

Step #4: Just keep doing steps #1-3, regardless of sales. Double down and triple down.

Originally Posted by skylord

In the US, Hispanics are sharply underrepresented based on their US population numbers. Media has never truly represented reality.

You're not wrong. Though you know who is Hispanic? Me. Times I have ever complained that I'm not being represented enough in fictional media: 0. Maybe I whined a lot when Bane wasn't Hispanic in "The Dark Knight," but I'm a big Bane fan, but that had nothing to do with me. I would have complained even if I was Ukrainian.

I don't and never needed to "see people like me" or was that ever important to me. Story and character first, not skin color. Because you know what putting prioritizing skin colors is, or even forcing people to make characters certain races? That is actual racism.

Originally Posted by Leo656

That show and the entire debacle was a perfect example of someone maaaaybe having good intentions somewhere but taking it entirely too far by about ten miles. When the showrunner literally and without irony told the producers that "the gay agenda" was the show's entire raison d'etre, someone really. seriously should have stepped in.

Absolutely. These people shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a children's cartoon show. Certainly she should never again now.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

"This cast is nothing but white dudes. Is that because they HAVE to be white dudes, or am I just being lazy and need to think about this some more?"

But writing intelligent, meaningful, GOOD stories and characters is hard. Much easier just to tick off all the boxes and assemble a nice box of diversity chocolates.

That's really the thought process now. It's a little scary how much they obsess about these things. Like, I work with a lot of... let's say younger filmmakers in the day to day here and there and 90% of them, that's all they worry about creatively. "Can we find a black guy? You know a few black guys, right?" "Should we make the Asian lady a lesbian?" "Ooh! Ooh! I think I can get this one transguy I met at film school!" and minimal thought to anything else. You know, like the 3 act structure and character motivations and the story arc.

Correction, they DO worry about other things. Things like, "Can we make it more of a shove and not a slap? We don't want to condone abuse," etc..

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Are you telling me that Barbie movie with Melissa McCarthy headlining will never make money?

Or was it Amy Schumer? I forget...

Or Sarah Silverman, or Michelle Wolf... one of those.

[Leo656]

"Creatives" worrying about every single thing EXCEPT the "creative" end. Checking boxes. "Making the numbers even." Inclusion, great, but why should that be MORE important than storytelling? Why is "diversity of representation" MORE important than "Diversity of THOUGHT"? That's what's stupid about the whole thing, and that's when it becomes "forced". The fact that we're in a time when "Unless you have ___ number of X and _____ number of Y people, your show/movie/etc. simply isn't allowed to get made.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Legit. The showrunner behind NuShe-Ra literally said the entire reason she made the show was for that kiss between the female leads (good and evil). If Netflix or whoever gave her a hard no to that, the series would never have been made.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Absolutely. These people shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a children's cartoon show. Certainly she should never again now.

Right? I mean, for me, the bald hypocrisy of "We're not trying to sell sex to kids" being spoken loudly and repeatedly to justify their creative decisions when that was EXACTLY what they were in a sense doing by making every character LGBT+ was absolutely ridiculous and disingenuous. The very idea that a She-Ra with curves and a short skirt might "warp" any of the little kids who watched it, but the entire show was built by design to a climax of two underage-looking chicks making out, and that's Just Fine... ugh. Way to talk out both sides of your mouth. That entire project went WAY beyond the boundaries of simple "inclusion and representation". And what's worse, they were VERY openly hostile and antagonistic about it, to the point where at one point both the showrunners AND the fans of it were openly mocking the original show and anyone who liked it with language every bit as acerbic and disrespectful as they claim other people were being in voicing their displeasure. Even when Melendy Britt, the original voice of She-Ra, spoke up saying that she didn't entirely understand the creative choices and asking for fans of the new show to at least be respectful of those who had a different opinion, she was shouted down for being "irrelevant". Classy!

And that's where these things get pushback and backlash. They SAY "We're just trying to be inclusive, NOT indoctrinate anyone", but in situations like the above... come on. "Indoctrination" was entirely the goal and endgame and anyone could see it. And if anyone said they didn't like it, or weren't comfortable with their kids seeing it, or even just as simple as "This doesn't feel like She-Ra, to me," they got called all kinds of nasty names and told to drop dead, in some cases literally.

Hearts in the right place? Maybe. I kinda don't think so, but maybe. Heads? Jammed three feet up their collective asses. They completely stuck to Andrew's "script" cited above of piggybacking on a well-known brand in order to force-feed people their own chosen agenda, and whenever anyone raised a grievance they were met with anything from "OK Boomer" to "Kill yourself, Nazi" and everything in between.

That's not the way to "win hearts and minds" no matter how noble you THINK you are. And that's when people push back.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Or Sarah Silverman, or Michelle Wolf... one of those.

Sarah Silverman's got awesome cans, though. I'd do her.