Eastman Interview. The Franchise should lean more on its gritter roots

[Autbot_Benz]

[Leo656]

So... what I've been saying all this time, basically. The people who care the most are the ones who always cared, and we're not ready to abandon the ship just yet, we just need to feel like we matter, to be given something we actually like legitimately and not just because we don't have anything better at the moment.

Here's hoping it does turn around. My generation's been either ignored or outright told to f*ck off for almost ten years straight. Time to flip things over. WAY past time.

[frank_one]

Laird being retired, Eastman is going at full throttle. It's funny, almost a passing of the torch or... a taking of the torch. Still, I miss the Laird era, he was more coherent and, after all, he was in charge, not just a hired supervisor.

[AquaParade]

It's been really cool to see Kevin get re-invested in the franchise over the last decade. It's like he had to come around to the fact that TMNT was going to be his legacy, and a great one at that. He really seems to be pushing for the TMNT to return to their roots more than ever lately.

Also, fans of the grittier side of TMNT are some of the most patient fans in the world. We hardly ever get a bone thrown to us. How cool it would be to see things turn around in the same way the Batman franchise got back on track in the 90's.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

How cool it would be to see things turn around in the same way the Batman franchise got back on track in the 90's.

TMNT can't go back on track, they are owned by Nickelodeon. They will never be an alternative/underground black and white comics again. A special almost-gritty miniseries here and there is all we can have now.

[Musashi]

That's fine. A new iteration where viewing it isn't like experiencing a ****ing migraine would be a step up. The bar is low right at the moment.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

https://i.imgur.com/evD65uP.jpg

The 87 series was what got me started with TMNT. However when I got the black and white comics I wasn't feeling them because they weren't as fun or lighthearted as the cartoon was. So I couldn't get into those mirage comics. Fortunately the Archie Comics then came out and it was exactly what i wanted from TMNT.

To say some of these older fans want something darker is kind of misleading because some of us prefer the more fun and lighthearted stuff. I'm just not into the dark and depressing stuff.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The 87 series was what got me started with TMNT. However when I got the black and white comics I wasn't feeling them because they weren't as fun or lighthearted as the cartoon was. So I couldn't get into those mirage comics. Fortunately the Archie Comics then came out and it was exactly what i wanted from TMNT.

To say some of these older fans want something darker is kind of misleading because some of us prefer the more fun and lighthearted stuff. I'm just not into the dark and depressing stuff.

Yes but most people who go back and watch the Fred Wolf cartoon will see that it's garbage, a rushed production meant to market toys, featuring no real plot/character developmen and an attempt to disguise it with terrible jokes. It can't really be called "fun" because everything about its is just boring tripe and some of the laziest humor out there. There's basically nothing of substance there and it's hard to see why an adult would find the Mirage studios much more appealing, there are actual attempts to make you care about the story and characters (flawed as they may be).

As for the Archie series I don't get it. It's better than the Fred Wolf cartoon because there's actually stuff going, but it isn't good in any well crafted or artistic sense. Whenever it's not just Steve Murphy getting on a soap box to promote environmentalism, it tells a real schizo storyline that barely makes sense if at all. I could handle PSA crap if the story was actually good but it's not, simply having a story doesn't mean it's worthwhile because it has to work too. And I'm not sure I can call it lighthearted given the fairly disturbing turns it takes, I don't know what you're smoking to think that. And the artwork almost always sucked too.

Mirage isn't perfect but I can at least say I understand most of what's going on and usually care about it when I read the comics. Fred Wolf and Archie are nothing, because they don't care about anything being anything other than a toy commercial and/or a glorified PSA.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Yes but most people who go back and watch the Fred Wolf cartoon will see that it's garbage, a rushed production meant to market toys, featuring no real plot/character developmen and an attempt to disguise it with terrible jokes. It can't really be called "fun" because everything about its is just boring tripe and some of the laziest humor out there. There's basically nothing of substance there and it's hard to see why an adult would find the Mirage studios much more appealing, there are actual attempts to make you care about the story and characters (flawed as they may be).

As for the Archie series I don't get it. It's better than the Fred Wolf cartoon because there's actually stuff going, but it isn't good in any well crafted or artistic sense. Whenever it's not just Steve Murphy getting on a soap box to promote environmentalism, it tells a real schizo storyline that barely makes sense if at all. I could handle PSA crap if the story was actually good but it's not, simply having a story doesn't mean it's worthwhile because it has to work too. And I'm not sure I can call it lighthearted given the fairly disturbing turns it takes, I don't know what you're smoking to think that. And the artwork almost always sucked too.

Mirage isn't perfect but I can at least say I understand most of what's going on and usually care about it when I read the comics. Fred Wolf and Archie are nothing, because they don't care about anything being anything other than a toy commercial and/or a glorified PSA.

I have to disagree, as a grown ass man I'm still very fond of the original series and don't see any problems with it. I'm a believer of if you like something even if its old, Its still good to you years after. My thoughts on it never change. What's good is good for me. My opinions on it never change.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

I have to disagree, as a grown ass man I'm still very fond of the original series and don't see any problems with it. I'm a believer of if you like something even if its old, Its still good to you years after. My thoughts on it never change. What's good is good for me. My opinions on it never change.

If your opinions never change, that never have and you think they never will, it's a sign that you're stagnant which isn't a good thing.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by neatoman

If your opinions never change, that never have and you think they never will, it's a sign that you're stagnant which isn't a good thing.

I have no idea what that even means. Like I said. Even if years go by. The stuff you watched as a kid still looks good to you. Because its what you remember and what you remember was good. Good back then good today. My thoughts on it never change. Im not one to go back and see its flaws because this was a totally different time and Im not comparing it to the new standards that are out there.

[Leo656]

If any person sees things exactly the same way they did when they were 5 or 10 years old, it means that they haven't grown even two inches since they were children. They haven't gained any insight or intelligence and are still seeing the world through a child's eyes.

That doesn't mean "hate things you liked when you were kids", it means gaining the ability to see why these things aren't perfect. And furthermore - and this is a real problem you specifically wrestle with often - developing the ability to understand WHY or HOW anyone could ever think differently about anything that you yourself do.

No sane and rational person looks back on Sesame Street or Teletubbies or Power Rangers and thinks they were flawless works of art, no matter how many hours of their youth they spent watching them. Nobody who's gained any growth or development at all in 25+ years would ever say that about any of those things. A rational person can look at them and say, "Well, they were competent children's programming, and they were entertaining." That's ALL. You can't say they were perfect, or flawless, or great, because objectively, they were not.

That word, "objectivity", is about 9/10s of what separates Adults from Children. The ability to look at things with an unbiased perspective on ANY topic, and say, "While I liked this thing once, and still like it to some degree now, it definitely isn't perfect." That's what "growing up" is.

If a person proudly boasts, "I look at every single thing the exact same way I did when I was a child, several decades ago," then that is the literal description of a "manchild", something no one should ever aspire to be OR brag about. All they're saying is that they have no ability to be rational or objective or unbiased about a subject. "I liked it when I was five" is their entire argument, and they're not interested in even thinking beyond that. They may not even be capable of thinking any deeper than that to begin with. All of these are negative character traits. People are supposed to literally grow and develop as they get older, not just get taller. If a person hasn't done that... then in the harshest terms, they've basically wasted their entire life.

Put simply... they may be a "man", but they're far from "grown."

And they shouldn't brag about it like it's a good thing. "I have the same thoughts and ideas in my head as a 6-year old" isn't something you go around marketing about one's self.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The 87 series was what got me started with TMNT. However when I got the black and white comics I wasn't feeling them because they weren't as fun or lighthearted as the cartoon was. So I couldn't get into those mirage comics. Fortunately the Archie Comics then came out and it was exactly what i wanted from TMNT.

To say some of these older fans want something darker is kind of misleading because some of us prefer the more fun and lighthearted stuff. I'm just not into the dark and depressing stuff.

That's very narrow minded of you. You should learn to look into other versions of TMNT (the good ones) even if they're not remotely like FW. Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgement.

[Andrew NDB]

What does he mean at the end there, "where we'll take it"? Like more "Last Ronin" stories? The general direction of TMNT at IDW? Something else?

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

What does he mean at the end there, "where we'll take it"? Like more "Last Ronin" stories? The general direction of TMNT at IDW? Something else?

It's not like it means anything. Eastman is as well intended as they come, but he's said a lot over the years that amounted to nothing, or was contradictory. Maybe it's Viacom that prevents any of his wants from existing, but nonetheless, it never pays to get hype from his interviews.

[Zachatello00]

I love these conversations!

I'm the person Kevin is talking about. 100%. I was hooked into the original show in 2nd grade (in the late 80s), loved it through childhood, outgrew it, left it behind, watched the original movie while unpacking my bags in my first college dorm room, and suddenly got sucked back in (as Kevin put it) for life. The mirage TMNT books kept me entertained because at the time, the DVDs of the original toon weren't available (just a few VHS episodes) but in looking at the old cartoon as an adult, I saw it for the toy commercial it was.

Having said that, oddly enough, toy collecting is by far my favorite thing about being a turtles fan. And I think the reason why (my office is full of them) is because when people see them, it sparks conversations. "Wow, I remember these from when I was a kid." "Wow, you've got some neat stuff in here." "Tell me what these are? I think the neighbor kid had some."

As for what I want to see out of turtle entertainment? I think it's great that there is a wide variety of options out there. Someone mentioned Batman as an example. That's a great example. You've got your kid/family friendly versions of Batman - Batman 66, Brave and the Bold, etc. You've got your middle of the road Batman - the 90s series, Arkham, etc. Then you've got your more dark/hardcore stuff - the Dark Knight trilogy, the comics, etc.

Not sure how much I see Nick allowing the latter for TMNT, but I think about like, the Image Comics, for example. Is it fair to say those were the grittiest turtles stories? Not necessarily for me (the original movie is the perfect tone for me), but I'm happy that fans who want that darker turtle's universe have those comics to enjoy. And for today's kids, "Rise" is right up their alley.

In short, I like that there are options for people based on their preference/style/what have you.

[FooKid]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The 87 series was what got me started with TMNT. However when I got the black and white comics I wasn't feeling them because they weren't as fun or lighthearted as the cartoon was. So I couldn't get into those mirage comics. Fortunately the Archie Comics then came out and it was exactly what i wanted from TMNT.

To say some of these older fans want something darker is kind of misleading because some of us prefer the more fun and lighthearted stuff. I'm just not into the dark and depressing stuff.

I like some of the gritty interpretations, but I fall into the same camp. I really enjoy the more light hearted presentation. I still go back to the toon and enjoy it immensely with all it's flaws. I think that is part of the charm it has for me.

There is room for both and why the IP will continue to be so strong moving forward. I am not sure why the conversations in this forum have to turn into cases where users are being called man children because they like a certain interpretation.

I think it is really great that people who want that darker style may get something developed sooner than later. IDW to Ronin, you can start to see it trending a bit. The question for the gritty crowd, would you prefer it to be more of a TV style series or movie? I think the gritty style almost lends itself more to a lower budget TV style.

[Coola Yagami]

IDK, I grew up loving the old cartoon, and it's so ingrained in my mind it's hard to go watch em after a while cause I have it too memorized. I do still like Raph's 4th wall-breaking, Mikey's surfer dude voice, Shredder insulting his henchmen and April's... everything.

I know there are still a few eps left for me to watch, like the European vacation and some of Red Sky. I'll get to them eventually.

But man, even as a kid, after playing the arcade game and watching the live action movie, even back then, some of the 'the turtles are bad-ass' goggles wore off and I realized there was barely any actual action in the later episodes.

The 2 examples that came to mind was an ep where Shredder locked them in a room with like 500 Foot Soldier or whatever. The Turtles were pretty much making 'well, I guess this is how we're gonna die' jokes without even ****in' trying to fight them. Like dude, there's 4 of you, you got weapons, you fought these robots before. At least ****ing TRY. You're supposed to be ****ing action heroes dammit (at least in this incarnation before Leo or Andrew jump in to correct me )

The other example was the one time I decided to revisit the Mona Lisa episode, I was instantly turned off by the fact that Raph and Mona spent most of the episode running from the bad guys rather than actually fight them, at least Raph who is supposed to be the ****in Ninja Turtle.

Of course once we got Batman the Animated Series and X-Men, you really do see how the Turtles were seriously lacking in the fighting department in comparison.

IDK, I can sit back and watch the old episodes and they take me back to a time where the only thing that mattered back then was when a new episode or toy was going to come out. But I mean, I can acknowledge they weren't exctly masterpiece theater y'know?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

IDK, I can sit back and watch the old episodes and they take me back to a time where the only thing that mattered back then was when a new episode or toy was going to come out. But I mean, I can acknowledge they weren't exctly masterpiece theater y'know?

I mean, that's all anyone's really saying, is show a little objective, unbiased reasoning. Nobody says "You can't like _____, it's automatically junk because you grew up" (even though SOME things aimed at kids are junk and they're too young to know or care, but I'd argue that's not everything that comes out).

The original "Masters of the Universe" cartoon is one of my all-time favorites. Do I think it's perfect? No, there's a lot about it that was pretty laughable in hindsight. Do I think some/most of the criticisms people sling towards it nowadays are a bit overblown? Yes, a lot of it is based in some truth but I also think people can take it too far and refuse to grade it on a curve when it pretty much has to be. Do I like it AS much as I did when I was 5? Not entirely. I can't help but snicker at some of the shortcomings. But is it everything I "need" it to be, and do I still enjoy watching it whenever I can? Yes, absolutely.

A lot of this can be applied to the original TMNT cartoon as well. And that's really all anyone is saying. You can be objective and unbiased even when revisiting something you love from childhood. You can still enjoy things without being a goddamn mark about it and pretending that they're flawless and perfect when NO, they're clearly not. That's what being an adult is. Obstinately refusing to even acknowledge that a thing has imperfections is childlike and juvenile.

"Love" is not pretending your wife doesn't have a third nipple, it's acknowledging that fact and choosing to be with her anyway. Pretending that it isn't there just means you're lying to yourself.

[FooKid]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I mean, that's all anyone's really saying, is show a little objective, unbiased reasoning. Nobody says "You can't like _____, it's automatically junk because you grew up" (even though SOME things aimed at kids are junk and they're too young to know or care, but I'd argue that's not everything that comes out).

The original "Masters of the Universe" cartoon is one of my all-time favorites. Do I think it's perfect? No, there's a lot about it that was pretty laughable in hindsight. Do I think some/most of the criticisms people sling towards it nowadays are a bit overblown? Yes, a lot of it is based in some truth but I also think people can take it too far and refuse to grade it on a curve when it pretty much has to be. Do I like it AS much as I did when I was 5? Not entirely. I can't help but snicker at some of the shortcomings. But is it everything I "need" it to be, and do I still enjoy watching it whenever I can? Yes, absolutely.

A lot of this can be applied to the original TMNT cartoon as well. And that's really all anyone is saying. You can be objective and unbiased even when revisiting something you love from childhood. You can still enjoy things without being a goddamn mark about it and pretending that they're flawless and perfect when NO, they're clearly not. That's what being an adult is. Obstinately refusing to even acknowledge that a thing has imperfections is childlike and juvenile.

"Love" is not pretending your wife doesn't have a third nipple, it's acknowledging that fact and choosing to be with her anyway. Pretending that it isn't there just means you're lying to yourself.

Agree with your sentiment of open mindedness in the community. For context, the posts you were responding to seemed like an overreaction, because someone did say you shouldn't like it because they view it as junk.

Quote:
"it's garbage, a rushed production meant to market toys, featuring no real plot/character developmen and an attempt to disguise it with terrible jokes. It can't really be called "fun" because everything about its is just boring tripe and some of the laziest humor out there. There's basically nothing of substance"