Have all your childhood franchises been ruined by new reboots/series?

[CyberCubed]

I was just thinking about this the other day.

Star Wars = people don't like the sequels

Star Trek = people don't like Discovery, Picard, cartoons, etc

DC = the Synderverse movies were poorly received, the CW shows are a mixed bag

Marvel = Probably faring the best due to the popularity of the current movies

TMNT = the Platinum Dune movies and Rise were a bust, but the 2012 series was well done as are the IDW comics

Simpsons = modern Simpsons has been lackluster for decades

Dragonball = Super's reception is a bit mixed, although I think most of it is good. Better than GT at any rate

[Cryomancer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6BRQKHYkjQ

[Shark_Blade]

Star Wars - The new films and cast are fine but undeniably they’re riddled with awful script and plot. That’s Disney/Lucasfilm fault but they’re still enjoyable.

Star Trek - Not really into it but I like the one with Benedict Cumberbatch.

DC - Snyderverse is the best depiction tbh. I got bored with older superman films. Dark Knight saga is not the greatest, it’s ok but have flaws too. Don’t really watch the CW shows much except the first season of flash and super girl which are great.

Marvel - Mostly great films

TMNT - Rise was great. Bayturtles scripts and stories are at fault but the visuals definitely deliver. New movies are coming so that’s good

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I was just thinking about this the other day.

Star Wars = people don't like the sequels

Star Trek = people don't like Discovery, Picard, cartoons, etc

DC = the Synderverse movies were poorly received, the CW shows are a mixed bag

Marvel = Probably faring the best due to the popularity of the current movies

TMNT = the Platinum Dune movies and Rise were a bust, but the 2012 series was well done as are the IDW comics

Simpsons = modern Simpsons has been lackluster for decades

Dragonball = Super's reception is a bit mixed, although I think most of it is good. Better than GT at any rate

The TMNT 2012 series was OK as a funny thing to watch with my daughter when she was like 4... but it's definitely not TMNT as I think of it (the Mirage comics, them actually behaving as ninja). The IDW stuff isn't to my taste either. It's like TMNT jambalaya... they mix in everything, and mostly the stupid Fred Wolf cartoon.

Yeah, all of those things have been murdered to me. Certainly Star Trek, Star Wars, Alien, Predator and everything under the DCEU umbrella (unless the Snyder Cut makes a miracle happen over there). The CW superhero shows SJWing themselves to death after a couple of seasons each (Batwoman and Supergirl didn't even get that dignity... they premiered that way), too, I guess.

[IMJ]

No, my childhood franchises have generally not been ruined. My hopes and optimism for new content that I can generally enjoy has been ruined, however.

[Leo656]

The DC comic books since 2009 have been an abysmal, confusing mess of constant reboots, desperate Hail Mary plays and "It-doesn't-matter-oh-wait-yes-it-does" revolving door continuity. And the TV shows are just plain awful.

The movies have been the best thing about DC for the past decade. People can agree or not for whatever dumb reason, but it's true regardless. And I really don't even feel like those films belong in this conversation because they don't "reboot" anything specifically and new movie series happen every cycle anyway. Marvel doesn't fit this topic, either, they're just doing what they always have except they finally figured out how to make their films profitable after 20 years of mediocre returns. Simpsons, either; there's never been a "reboot" or a "new series", it's just a long-running show that's not exactly the same as it used to be. You could just as well include Family Guy or American Dad, since they're both at or pushing a 20-year run. It's like you're somehow surprised that these things are affected by the passage of time and new people working on them.

But yeah, everything else listed has relevance to the conversation and are all pretty terrible.

What your bait thread is asking, in truth, is "Are the things based on my favorite franchises Right Now worse than what came out in years past?" And I would say Yes, mostly. Star Wars and Star Trek are in horrible shape. TMNT is still making a bit of money but has never been in worse creative shape, not even when it was "dead". I don't know anything about Dragonball so I can't speak to that.

But your presentation for this thesis is clumsy and scattershot.

[Shark_Blade]

Ducktales reboot is actually good tbh. And more reboots are coming like Darkwing Duck and Chip & Dales live action movie.

[Vicky82]

No

TMNT 2012 was a really good show but Rise was ok.

Ducktales is a great show. Hopefully the new Darkwing Duck reboot will be great.

Carmen Sandiego is great.

Thunderbirds are Go was a great show.

[newfan]

*shrugs* Not sure I can say childhood exactly for things like Star Wars as I got into that later on, Robocop too. (but still young). l guess something like Star Wars would stand out because it continued the original characters years later and saw a less pleasing fate for them (for a lot of people anyway) I've become a little burned out with Star Wars.

On the other hand the Robocop remake didn't really do much, it was it's own thing and didn't succeed in leading to anything else after, so it's just a movie that exists and to me it doesn't stand out and overshadow the original. Obviously with more successful things this would be different as a new version can set a trend for things to come, like with TMNT for example, individual versions remain as they are but some changes have stuck in mainstream and will continue going forward in future versions, this for some means they won't see much more of what they loved. I feel though that if there was more content for an older audience there may be less issue with the toons for some. (TMNT doesn't count for me as I didn't get into it back in the time of Turtle Mania, I am just speculating the views of others)

There are 2 He-Man toons coming and one of them carries on from the original toon, I wonder how this particular version will leave fans feeling.

I guess in conclusion, I still like what I like, the original Star Wars movies (though burned out with Star Wars), the versions/movies of Star Trek I always liked (not seen Discovery and don't really care about watching a Trek toon) and I still like Robocop.

[Barkworm]

Originally Posted by IMJ

My hopes and optimism for new content that I can generally enjoy has been ruined, however.

Pretty much this as far as movie franchises are concerned. I said it in the other thread, at this point I feel like there's more or less no effort anymore to create new content at all. Everything is the same boring **** and with the cost of movies nowadays, you can't even blame Hollywood for being uncreative.

With the stuff I enjoyed as a kid, it's either that I don't care about it anymore or I stick to the version I originally liked (usually the original one) and do not bother with reboot number 1000. But I have to admit that Episode VII's existence (I haven't watched the rest) has decreased my enjoyment of rewatching the original trilogy .

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Barkworm

But I have to admit that Episode VII's existence (I haven't watched the rest) has decreased my enjoyment of rewatching the original trilogy .

I wasn't sure if that would happen for me as well, but apparently it has.

Like I never feel any urgency at all to actually sit and watch them anymore. And I know people slam the Prequels, but I always liked them more than most people did. But every once in a while now one of the six Lucas Star Wars movies will come on TV and my wife will put it on, and I just can't even be bothered to look up from whatever I'm reading.

Knowing what they all lead to in the "official storyline" just makes those movies seem so... pointless, now. Like ALL that build, and ALL those characters... was all just setting the stage so some brand new characters Disney made up could swoop in and save the day "For realsies, this time." Luke's struggle and "Hero's Journey" didn't mean anything. Vader's face turn and sacrifice to stop the Emperor didn't mean anything. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't mean anything. Blowing up the Death Star TWICE didn't even mean anything. It was all Ma-Rey Sue; SHE meant EVERYTHING and everybody else was just greasing the wheels and killing time until she showed up.

Like no, the new movies don't suddenly make the old movies "bad", now. And in theory I could just ignore the new ones - and oh, how I've tried (I haven't seen Ep. IX yet and don't know if or when I'll ever bother). But I shouldn't HAVE to ignore huge chunks of the "official" plotline just to retain some enjoyment of the franchise, THEY shouldn't have f*cked it up with their nonsense in the first place. And I can't help it; when the older movies come on TV, I don't get excited, or happy... I just sigh.

Modern Star Wars and modern TMNT remind me of a time when we didn't HAVE "new" versions of these things, and while we all whined and pined for what might've been... at least we weren't drowning in garbage and being told to suck it up and have fun with it because "It's better than nothing." I STRONGLY disagree that the current state of either brand is, in fact, "better than nothing".

It really is like Jud Crandall said. "Sometimes... dead is bettah."

[Wildcat]

No. How long something goes or how many times it gets repurposed does not equal any kind of downfall. Like I’ve said before a lot of arguments are just based on “back in the day”.

I’ll be honest. It’s definitely crossed my mind sometimes. That something was somehow more appealing in the past. I can easily remember that’s not true though. It’s nostalgia. A skewed impression.

Nothing wrong enjoying or playing with it but nothing should be judged on the notion that you happened to grow up during a franchises best years. Things exist independently from everyone’s childhood.

If something continues into your adulthood it’s a good sign. It had staying power. Of course that does not mean everything it produces is great. It depends. Plus new things are always being made.

TMNT in general must be better. How is it any worse when it was mostly just the FW cartoon that dominated the mainstream? There’s more happening now. Not that more means better but it’s expanded. There’s even better toys (for those who can afford it).

TMNT has a pretty balanced track record imo. Well “Turtle Mania” was big but it’s remained even overall. Good show/movie, not so good show/movie. Hiatus, return, hiatus, return...comics, toys, games etc. Where was the huge drop off?

[drgon78]

TMNT 2012 is good, Rise is crap.

Ducktales 2017 is good though I do have some problems with it.

New She-Ra is garbage.

Disney Star Wars is crap.

Star Trek...to be honest I only like OS and the first 6 movies.

Doctor Who, never got into it.

Simpsons, should have ended at season 20 and they just made more animated movies.

Marvel, lots of ups and downs but after End Game I have lost interest.

DC, I wish they had someone in charge that new what they were doing.

[ZariusTwo]

I know everyone's turned on Doctor Who, but I don't find it half as offensive as the idiots on Youtube make it out to be, and al the canon breaking actually helped refresh the show after decades of the same tired story being told. The only thing wrong with it right now are the uninteresting companions like Yaz and a Doctor who feels like an ineffective victim in her own show, that and they're wasting all the potential of the Doctor being female by having her remain asexual. If you're going to give The Doctor tits, write a show about her using them

Originally Posted by Vicky82

She Ra was a great show.

She Ra was woke trash which told kids to cheerlead a toxic relationship

[Leo656]

It's not based on "back in the day", Wldcat, it's called Being Objective.

"More = Better" is a fallacy. It has nothing to do with objective quality whatsoever.

Here's an easily-digestible example to prove the point: The NES vs. the Sega Master System. Now, the NES had far more games released in America than the SMS by about a 10:1 ratio, and during the years they were competing for shelf space, Nintendo had something like 90% of the American video game market (it was decidedly a much closer race elsewhere, and in some countries they wiped their ass with the NES entirely, but I live and grew up in America so I'm focusing solely on American data for this example).

By your logic, "The NES had more games and was more popular, so obviously it was 'better' than the Master System." Except that's a half-truth at best and maaaaybe even a complete lie. They certainly had the marketing, and the ability at one point in time to lean on stores like Toys R Us and say, "If you carry Sega's products, you can't have ours", but that had nothing to do with whether the NES was a more powerful system - it wasn't - or whether or not games were always "better" on the NES that the SMS - they weren't. What Nintendo had was exclusive contracts with developers and certain licensed characters, which allowed them to maintain the ILLUSION that they were infinitely superior than their competition. Under the hood, though, the SMS was a more powerful piece of hardware than the NES. It was a "better" product, objectively, but if you lived in America you wouldn't have any real way to verify that back then because Nintendo wouldn't "allow" stores to stock Sega's products until later on. But it was NOT as simple as "More = Better". Having MORE games didn't mean the NES had BETTER games, nor did Nintendo having MORE market share mean they were a BETTER company than Sega.

By the same token, it doesn't matter that there's "more" TMNT product out right now because almost all of it is absolute garbage except for some of the toys. That's BAD for the brand. It makes people think that TMNT is stupid, vapid junk for little kids. You might think that's perfectly fine, but a lot of people don't agree. TMNT right now is in the worst shape its been since 1997, when again there wasn't a lot coming out but it was ALL terrible. And we have NO signs that it's going to get better anytime soon, either. The "best" we can hope for is that Seth f*cking Rogen can put the bong down long enough to remember that TMNT isn't a "dick-and-fart joke" property since that's all he f*cking understands.

Let's go down the TMNT Checklist for the last 10 years:
- 2012 Cartoon: Some people liked it, but it's over so it's irrelevant. And there's a million reasons why people DIDN'T like it. Didn't do much to reignite any passion on a large scale. It came, existed, then went out with a whimper. Only remembered strongly for how everything since is So Much Worse, to the point where this mediocre and divisive effort is "the gem" by default.

- BayTurtles Movies: Absolute dogsh*t, which only "proved" to a wider audience than ever that "TMNT Is F*cking Retarded", which isn't something we need to let people believe. A lot of people already believe that, we don't need to reinforce it.

- IDW Comics: A mixed bag of mediocre-to-lousy, and nobody reads them anyway. Almost zero cultural impact.

- "Rise": To be as kind as possible, "Divisive". Objectively, a total failure. Supposedly created to sell toys to kids and nothing else, yet did not sell toys to ANYONE. Ignored by kids and spit upon by purists. The people who like it are few enough in number that they do little except fracture the fanbase even further by constantly insisting that it was great. Nothing GOOD came from this show's existence, it only sowed even more discord among an already tribal and fractured TMNT audience. Even people who liked the show can agree that even more of a divide is the last thing this fanbase needs.

- Playmates Toys: Always garbage, aside from a few of the 2012 ones, but that was already a long time ago.

- Super7 Toys: Not bad, but expensive and redundant to some. "Here's the exact same toys you bought 30 years ago, but BIGGER. Remember how awesome this franchise USED to be?" They're cool, just... redundant.

- NECA Toys: This line's eternal legacy will be the fact that nobody can f*cking buy them for less than $250 on eBay, not for how cool they are. And again, the "best" this franchise can ever do is remind everyone how much better things were three decades ago than they are now. Again, they're cool, but most people will never own them and the entire line's legacy is going to simply be, "F*ck NECA", not "Yay, Ninja Turtles". So it doesn't do much good.

- Video Games: Oh, yeah. there's been a few games in the past ten years. It's easy to forget considering that maybe two of them were worth playing more than once.

SO. To again lean on my very favorite word, if we're being OBJECTIVE, we can easily see that the TMNT brand is not in any way thriving just because there's been a lot of crap with the brand name sticker to come out in the last few years. Most of it is, in fact, crap. And it's HURTING the brand, not helping it.

See, you kind of contradict yourself. Because on one hand, you say This:

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Not that more means better

But in literally the same breath, you say THIS:

Originally Posted by Wildcat

TMNT in general must be better. There’s more happening now.

So again, you're kind of playing both sides here. You say "not that More is better" despite "More IS better" being the entire crux of your point.

The objective fact is, ANY brand is "better off" when it exists as a fond memory, rather than a corpse that's constantly dug up and defiled for the entertainment of a few slack-jawed yokels. If EVERYTHING "new" coming out from a brand is BAD, how can that possibly be BETTER than when a brand like TMNT was dormant, but everyone could agree that it was mostly good before it went away?

In 2000, the only things universally reviled (or even strongly disliked by large numbers of fans) were the "Turtle Tunes" video tapes, "Coming Out of Their Shells", and "The Next Mutation". Sure, the cartoon and the second and third movies weren't exactly beloved by all, but most people at least thought they were alright.

Now? Holy sh*t. We are DROWNING in garbage covered in TMNT stickers, to the point where even remembering WHY it was ever "cool" or "good" is like fishing a $100 bill out of a septic tank. This situation is NOT "better" than when TMNT was "dead" but most of it before then was mostly-good. We are WAY worse off for Nick having bought it than if Laird had just shut it down. It would have been a mercy killing.

"But -snif- but then there's no more TMNT stuff coming out!"

If it's all garbage, who f*cking CARES?!

Objectively, some things need to be buried before the body starts to smell. Most things DON'T benefit from a never-ending cycle of returns. Many things are only "good" in their own time and place, and that has nothing to do with "nostalgia" and everything to do with fact. "Dick Tracy the hard-edged 1930s detective" was a gem. "Dick Tracy the happy-go-lucky 1970s family man who hung out on the moon with his outer-space buddies" was the drizzling sh*ts. "Evolution"? No. "Milking the cow until the tits fall off." That's what it is in 99% of cases. Bad ideas need to be recognized and shamed as Bad Ideas. Not excused and handwaved and called "evolution" because some people can't let things go.

But see... I'm talking to someone who honestly thinks the world is a better place with more than two "Terminator" movies in it, so I already know you're not going to understand or agree with any of this. I'm just saying... you're entitled to express your subjective opinion, but your subjective opinion is objectively wrong.

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

She Ra was woke trash who told kids to cheerlead a toxic relationship

I'm very proud of my rant above, BUT, what you've said is and will remain the single truest thing anyone on this forum is going to say for at least the next week, sir.

The very SECOND that Noelle Stevenson told the Netflix producers that "The point of the show is to promote the Gay Agenda", someone should have tossed her out on her ear. And that whole Adora/Catra thing is absolutely excusing/promoting a toxic and abusive relationship on its very face.

"She-Ra can't have boobs, though. That's bad for kids' development," or something. Every single character being gay or trans is awesome for kids, as is the entire Adora/Catra thing... but you can't have straight people or curvy women, that warps 'em. Christ almighty, what a sh*tpile.

It's not like the original show was "high art", but Jesus. At least it wasn't all about the showrunner working out her own internal issues with coming out at a young age and the people who picked on her in high school. Like if that's your only reason for wanting to do a kids' show, you've got no business at all trying to do a kids' show.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The DC comic books since 2009 have been an abysmal, confusing mess of constant reboots, desperate Hail Mary plays and "It-doesn't-matter-oh-wait-yes-it-does" revolving door continuity. And the TV shows are just plain awful.

Sadly, history has proven you correct on this. At this point, DC does feel like it's telling it's last stories comics-wise right now. I prefer anthologies and the digital first editions of titles more to the indecisive mainline output that either spoils or doesn't even develop further any real thing the fans want to read about.

I'm not as hot on some of the recent DC animated movies, they have a bit too much spicey edge to them, at least they don't talk down to it's audience...although the Snyder stuff does have a more of a pedigree to it in terms of scripting.


Marvel have never quite managed to score hits with their animation output in the last decade, a lot of forgettable dross in there. The most recent Spider-Man cartoon was a lot smarter than the previous Ultimate Spider-Man show, but lacked distinctly strong fluid animation, had incredibly boring supporting characters, and when they adapted Superior Spider-Man for television, they made them unlikeable. The show's saving graces ultimately became Otto's redemption arc towards the end and the best version of Mary Jane we've seen since the one from Spectacular Spider-Man.

It's strange, you feel with Batman v Superman you've seen about eight movies at once in the span of over three hours, so much so that I and others in my editing community have a lot of fun re-editing BVS and JL into something else (no disrespect to his vision, we just find it a fun pasttime), because there's just so much of it there. Snyder's movies are a jigsaw puzzle you can customise, don't like where the pieces necessarily go? They can be easily slotted elsewhere.

[Leo656]

My biggest "complaint" of BvS is that it's not eight hours long. I'd watch it at least twice per week and probably have no need for any other comic book movie ever again. Except "Man of Steel" or "Watchmen". They can stay. "Batman Begins", "The Dark Knight" and "Batman '89" might visit occasionally. "V For Vendetta" might pop in once a year to say "Hi." But otherwise I'd be pretty well set.
----------------

I'm not a "Marvel Guy" by any means, but it has always completely baffled me why they haven't had more success in the animated market. When people say "DC is always great in animation," that's a plain f*cking lie, a lot of their sh*t is godawful BUT they certainly have had a lot more at-bats than Marvel and even the worst of their output has left a bigger footprint.

Like, by comparison Marvel has put out very few animated films compared to DC, and I always wondered why not. Do they just not care about that market? You'd think since being acquired by Disney, that would change. Point of fact, I did dabble in the 90s animated Spider-Man and X-Men shows a bit, and while my memories are hazy I remember liking them just fine. It seems like none of their cartoon shows since then have been as impactful or memorable, despite there being several. And their animated movies, compared to DC's, have been so few as to be pretty much nonexistent. And I often wonder, why? Seems like money being left on the table for no good reason.

I did pick up the two animated "Ultimate Avengers" movies a while ago at a clearance sale. I should probably give those a look, I hear they're alright.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I did pick up the two animated "Ultimate Avengers" movies a while ago at a clearance sale. I should probably give those a look, I hear they're alright.

They're nice and lean adaptations of much grittier material, the second film was a bit ahead of the curb promoting Wakanda and T'challa about a decade before the actual BP movie came out, would have made a great Black Panther 2 if they'd never made the animation and held on to the script.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

They're nice and lean adaptations of much grittier material, the second film was a bit ahead of the curb promoting Wakanda and T'challa about a decade before the actual BP movie came out, would have made a great Black Panther 2 if they'd never made the animation and held on to the script.

I actually just bought some of the original art boards from those 2 Ultimate Avengers flicks. They are decent flicks, all things considered. I'm a big fan of Marc Worden's Iron Man - I wish they would've stuck with him as a voice actor instead of Adrian Pasdar's weird sort of Downey Jr. wannabe pitch.

[Last Ronin]

Dragonball Super in it's current arc sucks.

Rise TMNT was o.k nothing too special

Star Wars sucks butt cheeks after the new trilogy. Mandalorian is great though.