Wonder Woman 1984

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Not with complainer Ray they aren't.

Exactly.

But even before Ray Fisher became a whistleblower or a drama queen (depending on your POV and interpretation), did anyone think it would ever actually happen?

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Exactly.

But even before Ray Fisher became a whistleblower or a drama queen (depending on your POV and interpretation), did anyone think it would ever actually happen?

To be honest, Shazam is lucky he got a movie since he's not one of the Trinity. Is this was MCU, wether you like them or not, we'd be waiting for Cyborg 2 by now.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Leo656

She's still biting the hand that fed her either way, and it simply isn't a good look.

And if you look at the comments section of that article, nearly every single comment out of hundreds is some variant of, "Well geez, Patty, if WB was meddling so much with the first Wonder Woman movie, and they gave you full control over THIS one... well sh*t, I never thought I'd say this but maybe we need MORE WB meddling and not less. Because the first WW movie was a hell of a lot better than THIS one."

People are making it clear that with regard to Patty Jenkins and her uncensored "vision" for Diana, it's overwhelmingly Do Not Want. She needs supervision, not to be given tons of money and creative control "Because Wimmin".

She's done at DC/WB. No matter what they say "out loud" right now. They don't want her there, and she doesn't want to be there. She's done. This is textbook bridge-burning. First movie, New movie... she's openly saying how bad they've treated her and in the same breath she's bragging about holding them "hostage" for more money, just so she could come back and direct a movie that it turns out nobody even likes. This is an embarrassment for everyone involved. WB looks bad, and she looks worse.

There is no upside to her coming back for WW3. Especially not for WB. They bring her back, they look pussy-whipped after all the sh*t she talked about them in the media. The movie's not even getting a good reaction. They'd look beyond desperate if they brought her back. And it's clear she doesn't like working there, anyway.

So yeah... the "honeymoon" is over. She's done.

I had a bad feeling this would happen. The first Wonder Woman movie, I maintain, was quite good. But a big success on someone's First Big Project has a habit of going directly to their head and suddenly they're an asshole and nobody can tell them that their ideas are bad. George Lucas, Joss Whedon, Tim Burton... now Patty Jenkins. It's such a cliche but it's constantly true regardless. Nothing corrupts Talent like Success. It's a shame, but... we should have seen this coming.

You're assuming that Wonder Woman 1984 is her undiluted vision which I think is more than a little presumptuous. Remember a lot of this was re-worked and re-shot after negative audience test screenings which certainly supports the idea that this movie isn't her undiluted vision. Not to mention that it was heavily rumoured that WB were going to use this movie to set up a few of their upcoming DC movies and possibly even reboot the DCEU itself but clearly none of that is in the finished product.

She's certainly not 'done'. I don't think the general public pay too much attention about what directors say in interviews. Unless it's a 'the turtles are from an alien race' level backlash hardly anyone will care what Patty Jenkins says. I actually agree she shouldn't be saying these things but it's not going to make any difference to how Wonder Woman 3 will be made or how it will be recieved.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Not to mention that it was heavily rumoured that WB were going to use this movie to set up a few of their upcoming DC movies and possibly even reboot the DCEU itself

That always was a FAKE rumor, for sure.

[Leo656]

At every job I ever had, I signed papers saying that speaking negatively of the company paying me in a public setting was grounds in and of itself for immediate termination. Didn't matter if I was awesome at my job, or even if I had a right to my grievances; it's generally accepted that you don't DO sh*t like that.

She's talking sh*t about her employer to anyone who'll listen AND the movie's getting a bad reception. If they bring her back, they're making themselves look like idiots. End of story. Bending over for a spoiled brat who isn't worth her inflated price tag, who THINKS she's a rock star because she had ONE hit movie that was mostly a credit to the people who held her hand while making it.

What a horrible precedent that would set. I wouldn't hire her back.

[Jester]

I mean...she did write and direct Monster...

[Leo656]

Which was pretty good, but it also wasn't a "blockbuster" and was also figuratively a hundred years ago. And she's done a Whole Lotta Nothin' between that and Wonder Woman, which now many people are willing to call a fluke.

Her track record simply doesn't match her high opinion of herself, nor justifies the headaches she's bringing.

[Jester]

Oh, I hear ya. I went to IMDB see what she has done: Monster, some TV and Wonder Woman. 'Bout it.

[Autbot_Benz]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Not with complainer Ray they aren't.

Walter Hamada is staying on till 2023 so we won't be seeing Ray the whiner Fisher anytime soon

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Jester

Oh, I hear ya. I went to IMDB see what she has done: Monster, some TV and Wonder Woman. 'Bout it.

"Monster" was a good little picture, though. I dig it. I'm a sucker for stuff that's closely based on Real Life Events, when done well. Although apparently in Real Life, Aileen Wuornos was a bit less sympathetic and a bit more Just Plain Nuts than the movie made her out to be. But that's showbiz.

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

Walter Hamada is staying on till 2023 so we won't be seeing Ray the whiner Fisher anytime soon

Fisher's a better man than me.

PART of the "conflict" apparently comes from Geoff Johns and Joss Whedon being adamantly insistent on Cyborg saying "Booyah!" in the Justice League movie - "You know... like the Black Kids say!"

And I gotta say, I really don't care if that WAS the character's catchphrase in that silly cartoon show. If someone tried to make ME say some dumb sh*t like that, and was making it a federal case to the point of threatening to end my career over it, I'd hit my f*cking finish on 'em.

Like I'm sure there was more to all of it than Just That... but Jesus, that's plenty by itself. "C'mon, man! Just say 'Booyah!' It's funny!" Those clowns are the ones who should never work again, just based on that dumb sh*t alone.

And I say that as a White Guy. If I were a Black Guy, I would definitely be pretty annoyed at a couple of rich honkies from the suburbs trying to turn what was originally supposed to be a Very Serious Super-Hero Movie into a goddamn minstrel show. "Sure, I'll say 'Booyah'. What then? You want I should do a little twirl and holler 'DY-NO-MIIIITE!' and sip some grape soda since apparently we're making a f*cking farce outta this thing?" I mean come ON.

Ray Fisher is entitled to his grievances based on Just That One Thing Alone. And I'm sure there's probably more. But we don't even need to know more, that's already plenty. Whedon and Johns are idiots and people shouldn't defend them.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Autbot_Benz

Walter Hamada is staying on till 2023 so we won't be seeing Ray the whiner Fisher anytime soon

It's crazy too because I thought he played such a great and likeable character. He even had a sort of quiet gravitas. I thought he could take it somewhere as a character.

Then the guy turned out to be a complete @$$ hole in real life.

I just can't help but feel that if the whole story came out that most reasonable people would interpret it as a story where, like you said - he was an office whiner about having to work for a new boss. Like he put up resistance or something childish and it went the wrong way and now he claims he was victimized on set by a "bad boss".

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Then the guy turned out to be a complete @$$ hole in real life.

I just can't help but feel that if the whole story came out that most reasonable people would interpret it as a story where, like you said - he was an office whiner about having to work for a new boss. Like he put up resistance or something childish and it went the wrong way and now he claims he was victimized on set by a "bad boss".

You absolutely don't know that. You're merely projecting.

Based on what we DO know - the anecdote I relayed above - Johns and Whedon are clearly the assholes in the situation. Even if his entire grievance was Just The "Booyah" Thing - and I'm sure there's more to it than that - then they're idiots and morons and he's right for putting heat on them. F*ck those clowns.

As I've said before, the guy knew for a fact he was tanking his career by speaking out, and he decided he'd rather see them go down than keep himself afloat. That's incredibly admirable. He put principle ahead of finance, which nobody ever does. It's a shame to see people vilifying him just because he legally isn't allowed to "dish dirt".

"We WANT the dirt or Shut The F*ck Up!" is all this sentiment from most people is, and sorry, but you/we aren't entitled to "The Dirt". Maybe he could have handled it differently, or more quietly, but you know what? Neither Johns nor Whedon has any major stroke with regard to the DC movies anymore, and that's Nothing But Win for everybody. So all of this turned out to be for a good cause. We should be thanking Ray Fisher, not calling him names because his stories weren't "spicy" enough. F*ck Geoff Johns and Joss Whedon. They did NOTHING to actually help the situation regarding the DCEU and a lot to make it worse, mostly on account of their own ego. It's not like Ray Fisher was the first or even the most recent person to say they're a couple of assholes. It's apparently been common knowledge within the industry for years and it's only us marks who are finding out about it now. Whatever it takes, I say.

I don't need to hear "the dirt" to get my rocks off; Ray Fisher got those two guys off the boat and that means he's alright by me. Whatever It Takes. Johns got a demotion and Whedon is no longer welcome to play in the DC sandbox. You remember that moron was gonna get to do a "Batgirl" movie, before Ray Fisher started talking out loud? We should be throwing Fisher a goddamn parade for helping us dodge THAT f*cking bullet, not calling him "an asshole". Jesus. Priorities, people. Ignore your inherent need to drink in all the "juicy gossip" and be grateful that two people who deserved to be shown the door actually got the heave for once.

Fisher absolutely isn't the villain of the story. Want proof? Watch the theatrical cut of "Justice League" again, and remember that Geoff Johns and Joss Whedon actually thought that their ideas were GOOD.

Whatever It Takes.
--------------------

I do agree, though, that his Cyborg was one of the best things in what we saw in that butchered version of "Justice League". And it's one of the things I'm most excited to see more of in Snyder's version. It'll be bittersweet since the solo movie definitely won't happen now, but I've always been of the opinion, like many others, that it wasn't really going to ever happen anyway. He's a very obscure character in the grand scheme of things and even though he was one of the more well-received parts of the JL movie, I doubt millions of people would pay to see a Cyborg movie. Some characters by design are Ensemble Cast Players and there's nothing wrong with that. I like Cyborg. I like him in the Titans books just fine. I doubt I'd ever buy a solo book of his, though. On his own I just don't think he's all that interesting without other characters to play off of. But that's true of a lot of good characters. Not everybody's a headliner, that's just the way it is.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You absolutely don't know that. You're merely projecting.

Ehhh. Fair enough I suppose. You're right, I don't know. But I'm definitely not projecting. More like interpolating based on the given information... I'm formulating that based on what I can extrapolate from his interview conduct, word choices, positioning as all of this unfolded.

We talked about the truth of this earlier in the thread. I just can't help but think that if something was really awful here it would've come out. I'm sensing that this was more like how it's in vogue to be "offended". People find something that they can plant a soap box on and use it through being "offended". Nothing outside of Fisher's outrage has been presented, and that lack of info is a sign. The outrage is projecting. Even Gadot's example was a bit of a stretch - Whedon was implied to be sexually rude for his insertion of the Flash "boobs" gag and they did it with a body double.

And that's fringe BS there to crucify Whedon on. That's "ak-TOR!" BS. And that's what we know - Actor nonsense + the conduct and positioning thing I mentioned above. Normally that paints a picture in of itself when there isn't any other information coming out. And with white males as public enemy #1 through Hollywood social justice there's no way that it would've been kept under wraps if Whedon did anything truly terrible.

If something else comes out about the story I'd be happy to re-examine it, but right now it really feels like $#!((y people revolting against a boss that maybe had a bad attitude.

[Leo656]

But again, most of the ill-will towards Fisher is 100% because "He didn't give us the REAL Dirt". And that's f*cked up, because it ignores the fact that he legally probably can't come out and say what we collectively wanna hear no matter how bad we wanna hear it.

As I said elsewhere in other threads about it, when I've been hired for jobs not ONLY did I sign papers saying I could be fired for saying disparaging things about my company and/or bosses out loud in public, but they can also sue me if I do. I'm VERY sure that's a big, big factor in the situation over at WB, on a much grander scale. And he's said multiple times in various statements that "Legally, I have to be very careful about what I say." So that tells me all I need to know. I absolutely don't want the guy to cut his own neck any deeper on account of MY personal "Need To Know." Because I in fact DON'T "Need To Know" that bad.

Fisher knew he'd never work in the business again for what little he DID say, and that's plenty bad on its own for him, but he took the hit. Okay then, good for him for sticking up for his principles, if he feels that strongly. Why make it worse for himself and actively invite a multi-million dollar lawsuit, though? Why pauper himself on top of being blackballed? That would be stupid. "But we want The Dirt!" Are you gonna pay the guy's bills when WB sues him for breach of contract? Am I? No, we aren't. Thus, we're not entitled to "The Dirt". He can say as much or as little as he feels is necessary, and that's his business.

Sure, he could have said Nothing and dealt with it quietly and privately. And maybe that would have been less annoying for some people. BUT. If he'd done that, there's a strong chance that Whedon and Johns would still have "stroke" with WB, and now they don't. They only got tossed because of fear of a very public backlash, and that wouldn't have happened if Fisher had remained 100% silent. He spoke out, and they got let go, and THAT is what ultimately matters most.

Again, why anyone who actually watched "Justice League" would take two seconds out of their time to DEFEND Whedon and Johns boggles my goddamn mind. They've neither earned nor deserve any benefit of the doubt. And yet people end up defending them at least a little bit, and all because the guy accusing them didn't deliver enough juicy gossip. That's ludicrous.

Sure, "If he's not gonna dish, then he's just annoying and needs to shut up." Alright, fine. But then we'd still be stuck with Whedon and Johns, and now we aren't. Priorities. Just. Take. The WIN.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Leo656

But again, most of the ill-will towards Fisher is 100% because "He didn't give us the REAL Dirt".[/I]

No, no, no, no, no....

I know what you are saying. But that's not it. That's not the causal thing. There's a big difference there between pointing a finger because we "didn't get the dirt on the issue", which is just sour grapes as opposed to taking all of these other data points amdisit the current zeitgeist, in combination with the story as-is being more of a causal factor to this interpretation of the story so far.

And there's the key point of information here that sort of directly addresses the point I think you are making. And that key information is this:
Fisher isn't exactly coming off as "there was a problem, but we will handle it with dignity." Instead he's doing a lot of loudspeak. A lot of "crusader signaling". A lot of ruckus that is contrary to "there was a problem, but we handled it internally". And that sort of invalidates the "Fisher as a professional problem solver" angle.

I think that's key to some of these feelings towards the guy. If we are taking the "he's staying silent out of integrity angle", then he should've... you know.... stayed silent instead of the media crusade. So bare minimum then it's disingenuous. Actually now it's worse if he's doing that amidst the "quiet problem" angle.

[Leo656]

But again, if he'd stayed silent, Whedon and Johns would still have their cushy gigs at WB. Instead, Johns lost a ton of his pull at WB and Whedon will never get to direct another DC movie. Soooo... Yay. I'm glad he said something. Anything.

I'm not about to play detective about the motives of Ray Fisher in this case. I'm just glad we all came out ahead in the end. As to his Why... that's a big "So What?" from me, I'm not even gonna lie.

Whatever It Takes. We should all just be grateful and move on. The "How/Why" doesn't matter as much as the fact that Whedon's completely out of the DC picture and Johns is no longer anyone's "boss" of significance at WB. The Ends justify the Means. Why cry about it? Why pick nits? Keep doing that, WB might reverse course and give those two idiots their jobs back, which benefits nobody but Those Two Idiots.

People need to get their priorities in order. Ray Fisher's motives aren't the ultimate issue. What matters is The Right People Got Sh*tcanned. It's just a pity it didn't happen BEFORE the theatrical cut of JL got released, but whatever, as long as the Universe is finally in its proper balance. That's what matters.

I frankly don't care if Ray Fisher made the whole thing up and Photoshopped Whedon and Johns in bed with a donkey, I'll be upfront as hell about that. After what they did to Justice League, and what they inevitably would have done to any other DC movies they were assigned to after and into the forthcoming future, I'm just glad they're out of the picture.

Whatever. It. Takes.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Leo656

But again, if he'd stayed silent, Whedon and Johns would still have their cushy gigs at WB. Instead, Johns lost a ton of his pull at WB and Whedon will never get to direct another DC movie. Soooo... Yay. I'm glad he said something. Anything.

I'm not about to play detective about the motives of Ray Fisher in this case. I'm just glad we all came out ahead in the end. As to his Why... that's a big "So What?" from me, I'm not even gonna lie.

Whatever It Takes. We should all just be grateful and move on. The "How/Why" doesn't matter as much as the fact that Whedon's completely out of the DC picture and Johns is no longer anyone's "boss" of significance at WB. The Ends justify the Means. Why cry about it? Why pick nits? Keep doing that, WB might reverse course and give those two idiots their jobs back, which benefits nobody but Those Two Idiots.

People need to get their priorities in order. Ray Fisher's motives aren't the ultimate issue. What matters is The Right People Got Sh*tcanned. It's just a pity it didn't happen BEFORE the theatrical cut of JL got released, but whatever, as long as the Universe is finally in its proper balance. That's what matters.

I frankly don't care if Ray Fisher made the whole thing up and Photoshopped Whedon and Johns in bed with a donkey, I'll be upfront as hell about that. After what they did to Justice League, and what they inevitably would have done to any other DC movies they were assigned to after and into the forthcoming future, I'm just glad they're out of the picture.

Whatever. It. Takes.

Oh God man! lol!

[Leo656]

Just to steer back a little closer to Topic... Since this is actually a Wonder Woman thread but we're talking about Joss Whedon being awful, anyone else ever looked at his own aborted Wonder Woman project from many moons ago? Zounds.

The only reason this dude ever had any work at all was because his specific flavor of Quippy And Mediocre periodically comes into fashion every now and again. But he... he ain't good.

We're lucky he never made Wonder Woman, and we're lucky he's not gonna get to make Batgirl. First "Avengers" flick was alright, but... again, Right Place, Right Time. And it's not like that one was breathtaking, either. It mostly skated by on the novelty of "WOAH, man, like... more than TWO super-heroes in the same shot together! AWESOME!" at a time when we'd never seen that before. Like Joss Whedon himself, that movie aimed squarely at the Middle and hit the mark, but it - like Whedon's entire career - was vastly overrated. It's fine, though, I can watch it. I like it better than most MCU fare, but it doesn't give me a boner or anything.

*I* honestly think "Cabin in the Woods" was his best movie but I'unno, people tell me my opinions are strange.

[Andrew NDB]

Geoff lost his cushy job long before Cryborg started his whining.

[AquaParade]

Leo, it's not about people "wanting dirt" on John's, Hamada, and Wheson, It's about evidence. I don't want to live in a world where providing proof of someone's poor actions is considered "dirt". If you are going to ask the entire world to condemn someone with you, you need more than just vague accusations - You don't agree with that? Sure, maybe some assholes slide by, but it's called having a system. And the system we currently have makes Ray look very suspect. I wouldn't want to say "boo-yah" either, but when you sign a contract, take the job, and start spending the money, you do what the boss says. And yeah, it may suck and feel creatively void, but it certainly doesn't justify what we have here.

A few extra reminders that give context to this scenario:

- Forbes had to retract statements given by Fisher once they turned out to be unsubstantiated
- WB did an investigation and found no reason to back Fisher. Ray even stopped the initial investigation to make sure it was handled by someone he wanted. It still turned out useless for him.
- Ray Fisher went on hearsay to accuse Whedon of color correcting people, but turns out it wasn't even done by him and many have backed it as a typical editing/coloring technique. Whoops. Prob shouldn't go off hearsay, Ray.

If you want an easy story to get enraged about, this is a great choice. I find that if you look deeper, there are cracks everywhere. That's why his ship is sinking in an era where being victimized is a freaked golden ticket. Fishet went for this but his execution was terrible and now he has nothing.