Official Justice League Movie

[AquaParade]

Just got done watching it. I thought it was great, but I also thought that the Whedon cut wasn't anywhere as bad as people who were lambasting it. Somewhere in this thread Leo656 made a point about people bashing the movie for things that in any other movies wouldn't have been a big deal. People get on board with their BS because it's the thing to do.

Not for me. The 2017 version straight up disrespected it’s audience and you can see it all over the film. I had no desire to dislike the movie after looking forward to it for years, but any movie that opens up with a big, scary, flappy cgi lip on Superman, well... it’s not a good sign. I’d rip into any movie, if it shared the same problems as JL.

I think most importantly this version of the movie actually paints a huge picture for me regarding Cyborg-guy's ******** in real life. I liked him in both cuts, but it's very clear that Whedon's version removed Cyborg from the heart of the movie, and given Cyborg-guy's complaints now it seems even more like it was sour grapes. Like he knew that his signficant role was reduced and that was his big shot and maybe he threw a fit over that, kicking and screaming abuse and racism the whole ass hole way.

That’s my read of the situation. Makes too much sense.

Jared Leto's Joker I thought was great. No reason to bash it except to deceptively broadcast some kind of judgement superiority. I didn't see Suicide Squad, but Leto's Joker and the nuance was great in the last scenes. Thought the early replacement of Steppenwolf with Darkseid losing was an interesting choice. That alone could be an entire conversation. It was neat to see, but doesn't that also sort of weaken Darkseid's character a bit? Showing the big, behind the scenes bad guy in a devastating loss at the hands of ancient superheroes wielding swords right up front like that?

I mean, I thought it was pretty bad, but it’s not about “judgement superiority”. Not completely his fault, but there is so little to work with in the scene he is given. It reminded me of that Batman: Dying is Easy, or any other fan film where the characters give big expository dialogue explaining their relationship to one another.
After Heath and Joaquin, I expect to be blown away when I see the Joker on-screen. Or at least utterly captivated. I could have gotten up for snacks during that scene, but hey, maybe that’s just me.

It's a long movie so there's a lot to discuss. In general it was a good cut for the most part and I'm glad that it was put out there. It's a good move for the fans in a day and age where studios crap on the people giving them money.

Agreed. It feels like a treat to receive the movie in this way. It’s a very fun time, and best of all, Zack is the only one doing this style right now, so I hope he keeps at it, or at least reminds other filmmakers in the genre that there are many ways to treat these stories.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Agreed. It feels like a treat to receive the movie in this way. It’s a very fun time, and best of all, Zack is the only doing this style right now, so I hope he keeps at it, or at least reminds other filmmakers in the genre, that there are many ways to treat these stories.

For real. In a way, it's honestly better that it came out Right Now, when the MCU and their billion-dollar grosses aren't completely dominating the conversation. I do honestly think people would be more harsh if this same thing had come out in a different place and time.

Right now, all that tribal fanboy stuff and the media cheerleading stuff is turned way down because of the global situation. Nobody's standing there screaming about "mass-market appeal" and "market demographics" and needing to gross a billion dollars Or Else, or "what this means for the future of Franchise X" or "Don't you know there's only ONE way to do these movies, and it's The Way That Makes Money?"

All anyone is saying is "Damn... that's actually a good f*cking movie, though!" And it's REFRESHING.

People need to be reminded, and accept, that there ISN'T "just one way". That This Stuff is still good and This Stuff works, too.

If I were a more spiritual person, I'd be inclined to think that the Universe manipulated this situation to unfold exactly as it did, so that the film could be taken on its own merits in a situation where all that other chatter simply didn't matter. So that it could be judged as its own piece of art instead of compared to Something Else, over and over and OVER again.

But I don't necessarily believe in big cosmic coincidences. So I'll just be grateful instead and try not to over-think it.

[CyberCubed]

So Ben Affleck is confirmed to be in the Flash moving coming up, right? So we'll get to see his Batman at least one more time. I really do want to see more of him, and Alfred was also fantastic in the film. I really liked how Jeremy Irons played him, where Alfred wasn't just some meek old man but actually worked with Batman and played a more active behind-the-scenes role. And of course Jim Gordon was good in the movie too despite only one scene, I'd like to see them all back.

Besides that, I really do think Henry Cavill deserves a "Man of Steel 2" or some other movie to himself. I really hope they drop the stupid "black Superman" thing they're planning and give him, Lois, and Martha one last movie...if only to give them a proper sendoff. Throw in Brainiac or whatever and give us a movie against a Superman villain.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, I'm OK with evil New Gods being redesigned to look a bit like Darkseid. That actually always bothered me that they didn't.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So Ben Affleck is confirmed to be in the Flash moving coming up, right? So we'll get to see his Batman at least one more time. I really do want to see more of him, and Alfred was also fantastic in the film. I really liked how Jeremy Irons played him, where Alfred wasn't just some meek old man but actually worked with Batman and played a more active behind-the-scenes role. And of course Jim Gordon was good in the movie too despite only one scene, I'd like to see them all back.

Besides that, I really do think Henry Cavill deserves a "Man of Steel 2" or some other movie to himself. I really hope they drop the stupid "black Superman" thing they're planning and give him, Lois, and Martha one last movie...if only to give them a proper sendoff. Throw in Brainiac or whatever and give us a movie against a Superman villain.

Absolutely Yes to all of that. Couldn't agree more.

So very much of this film feels like a redemption. I very much hope WB takes note of the reactions and pumps the breaks on the whole "hard reboot" thing. They can still do a whole "Multiverse" take with different movies being in different "universes" and everything, but that only gives MORE reason to allow these versions of the characters to endure, at least for a little while longer. They deserve it! This movie had everything people swore they didn't get enough of in MoS and BvS, and retroactively makes those films stronger by paying off some of the stuff in them in big ways. Things that "didn't make sense" to some people now make sense with the proper context.

They'd be f*cking stupid to cut it all off now. NOW, when people are finally coming around to it after seeing this one. I understood them being skittish after BvS under-performed, but I said "people should just calm down, wait and let the story be told". Now, we see that was indeed the case, and that the story was taking us to a very good place, and these actors do a BEAUTIFUL job in telling that story. To rip it all away because of dollars and cents and the fact that Entertainment Weekly likes to rip on them... that would be unjust and unfair.

They can keep their reboot movies and spin-offs and whatever else on deck, if they wanna go full "Multiverse". But that still leaves room to give us a little more of This. If people want more of this, then man up, admit you overreacted to the bad ink, and Just F*cking DO IT.

Oh, and Gordon was in two scenes; one in GCPD headquarters talking to the other cop, and then one on the roof with Batman and Friends. But yeah, he was great, we need more of him.

And I loved Michael Caine but Jeremy Irons is my favorite Alfred of all-time. He's less a worrying nanny and more of a partner, and I love that. Him and Affleck have terrific chemistry, too.

"This is Alfred... I work for him." F*cking brilliant stuff, man.

[AquaParade]

On one hand, this truly deserves a sequel. There is more story to tell. It has proven itself against all odds and turned out to be a crowd pleaser with a distinct tone & atmosphere from other films coming out right now.

On the other hand, I have very little interest in seeing a sequel that takes place, primarily in the Nightmare world. Actually, I’m not sure that’d be the plan, but I wasn’t too hot on any of the plans I’ve heard for the potential sequels.

So I’m torn. Either way, it fun to consider the line-up of heroes they’d use. First, I think Batfleck and Cyborg are out (but does Zack do the sequel if WB says “no, Ray Fisher. We aren’t putting up with that press for another 4 years.” ?? That’s a question I want an answer to.) Ray is in dire drama with WB and It sounds like Ben is getting the pseudo-Snyder ending in Flash, where he will sacrifice himself, as Zack had originally intended for the character.

First off, I think we still need a Batman, for marketing purposes, if nothing else. We are getting plenty of Bruce Wayne these days, so this is the perfect opportunity to give us a different character playing Batman. I think Batman Beyond or Tim Fox would be exciting choices. You could also do Azrael or a version of Robin we have yet to hear about.
Either way, it allows you to bring another rookie to the team, who has a chance to prove themselves. Other team members will be skeptical of Batman, which opens him up for a great opportunity to steal the scene and show what he is capable of at some point. Let’s face it, people want to see that costume on screen, and WB wants to market this movie with a Batman, surely. I’d just love to see someone else under the cowl on the big screen for once. I love the legacy aspect.

Other than that, Martian Manhunter is an easy choice. He’s being slowly developed and waiting in the wings. Also, he’s a fan favorite and recognized member of the JL.

I’d also consider bringing in Shazaam/The Rock. This dude was built for Zack Snyder films and why not bring that type of star power and acting chops to a Justice League movie? Make him the villain if you want, but bring him in.

Then, of course you have WW, The Flash, Aquaman, and Superman holding it down. I think all the above could make for a really exciting sequel line-up.
Of course, Zack already has his own plans, so it wouldn’t be anything like this if he took the reigns. I guess I like the idea for a potential non-Zack Snyder sequel.

[CyberCubed]

You know I'm really surprised the actor who plays Silas Stone didn't complain that nearly 90% of his scenes were cut in the Whedon version. I mean outside his introduction and the one scene when he's captured by the Parademons and brought to Steppenwolf, 90% of Silas scenes are cut in the original version. Cyborg's entire backstory was left out the window.

That's why I was really surprised what a big role he had in this version, Silas Stone was like the unsung hero of the film. He's the reason they were able to track down Steppenwolf in this version after sacrificing himself, and in the original Cyborg just randomly finds them out of the blue.

[Leo656]

Frankly, given that BvS and this movie were already shot and executed to set up a Very Specific Story for JL2 and JL3, I'd much prefer they keep to that plan rather than try any late-game retrofitting. The payoff wouldn't feel quite as natural, there'd be a disconnect. The whole "Empire Strikes Back" nature of JL2 would probably be a bit much for people, but JL3 would absolutely knock it out of the park. I mean if "Final Crisis" (or rather, a streamlined version of it) where "Darkseid Wins... but then he doesn't, Happy Ending" was the story they set up and started to execute... just stick with that, you already set it up to be that.

I mean it wasn't planned to be the WHOLE movie, just the second half or last third or whatever. It was gonna come to pass and we were going to spend some time in that world as it became "reality", but only after the League tried and failed to stop Darkseid on Apokolips; one could do the math and reason that the first third of the movie would probably be spent on "Darkseid is coming... what do we do?" stuff, the middle third would actually be The Big Fight where the League loses and Lois dies, and then the final third would be all the stuff that was foretold actually coming to pass. So that seems pretty balanced. Other than the fact that SOME fans never wanna see the good guys take a fall for any reason, I don't think it would be overwhelming or anything.

Likewise, the first third of JL3 would also probably be on the Knightmare world, and coming up with the plan to send Barry back in time to make sure Lois doesn't die, something in between, and then the final act would have been the whole "New Age Of Heroes" thing. One can imagine, since Zack loves to parallel scenes from one movie into another, the "History Lesson" ancient battle we saw in this movie would influence a lot of the final act of JL3, except with Superman and the League taking the place of the Old Gods.

I don't know, man. The idea of Superman and the Justice League leading all of the world's armies into war with Darkseid, and winning... that sounds pretty f*cking bad-ass for Justice League 3 to ME. And given that's what was being built to... anything less would seem kind of limp-dicked, to me. I say nurture the seeds that were already planted and let them grow into what they were designed to grow into. They could tweak a few things - Lois is obviously pregnant after this movie, but I don't think it NEEDS to be Bruce's baby, just for one example of something they could tweak - but I'd be against any sweeping changes. That would kind of undermine the entire point of this movie's existence.

As for Cyborg, I think if Zack were invited to come back and he wanted Ray, then Ray would do it. Remember, he was the one who initially refused to work with WB for his own reasons, it wasn't like they sh*tcanned him (at first). If we've learned nothing from this whole experience, it's that nothing is ever set in stone and many things can change. If not, they could still work around it. But I would like to see him come back. There's always a chance.

After ALL THIS sh*t, I don't EVER wanna hear anyone throw around words like "impossible" ever again. Even I'm gonna try and be better about that sh*t. "Zack Snyder's Justice League" is real and people like it. I no longer believe in "impossible". That sh*t's out the window, now.

[Rabbit Kraken Zeo]

I've heard mostly positive of course I haven't seen the synder cut. It has to be better then the 2017 version cause that was is a mess. I am happy for the fan base if they're happy with the new version they waited so long to see.

One thing though; I don't think DC will ever be as good as Marvel in movie production(s) however maybe DC can just find its groove with this variation of JL given to fans to feel some hope at maybe being more then they could have been. I Like DC but i love Marvel so JL 17 isn't really as bad as they say but it is a mess in most regard. Happy for those who got to see new JL.

[Leo656]

I don't think it needed to ever be a contest. The studios, sure, to them it's all about money and therefore it needs to be a "war"... but nobody else should even care about who does what "better". Nobody who isn't making money off of these movies needs to plant a flag and "pick a side".

Both Marvel and DC's movies have been technically well-done. There are very few objectively "bad movies" from either. What it comes down to is simply what This Person or That Person wants or prefers to watch. That's all.

For my part, for example, I can admire the technical prowess and sense of "fun" the MCU films have. But they don't deliver the experience *I* want from a comic book movie, and honestly fall way, way short of that most of the time. That influences my opinion on what's "better". Other people feel the opposite, and that's based on their own values.

Both "sides" do a very good job at making Exactly The Type Of Movies They Make, and pleasing the audience that likes that style of films. There is no objective "better" or "worse" in that regard.

But as to whether or not DC films will ever start pumping out billion-dollar blockbusters one after another like Marvel has... I doubt it. Even before Snyder, DC movies have always been too "dark" for the same kind of mass appeal. Stuff like "The Dark Knight" were always outliers (and those theaters for that movie weren't packed with little kids, either). Both companies have something of a "house style" that appeals to different audiences, and DC's movies have never hit it as big with women or kids as you need to do in order to make that Marvel money. WB in general makes more "adult" fare with less casual appeal, always have, even aside from their comic book stuff.

I think both companies have a role to play in the market and an audience that loves Their Way of doing things. I don't expect much to ever change in that regard.

[AquaParade]

I would be shocked - yet not surprised - if Kevin Feige were to scoop up Zack Snyder, in the instance that WB truly wants to let his DCEU rest now.

Yes, there are obstacles: Zack Snyder is a visionary who would require a lot of creative control. Yet at the same time, he was clearly willing to work with WB on multiple projects while they tampered with his work, so it stands to reason that he is a team player.

Secondary, this is sort of what Feige does. Not all he does, mind you, but a big part of his strategy has been outdoing WB at their own game. Batman V Superman led to Civil War, and there is reason to believe that Marvel was inspired to go down the multiverse rabbit hole by all the talk of Flashpoint over at WB. So I could see him recognizing the potential of Snyder's work and making WB's loss, his win. I'll be laughing my ass off, when we twist even further into a mad-world where Zack casts Ray Fisher as Deathlok (alright, I'm putting $5 down on this one).

All Kevin has to do is give a handful of limitations and set this guy off in his own multiverse where he can maintain a lot of control over the direction. You give him "Annihilation" or "Thunderbolts" or something with bombastic potential and let him go crazy.

I'm not saying that's the end all, be all for Marvel or Snyder. It's not even necessarily something I am dying to see (although I would), but as a Chess move on the Hollywood board, I'd find it very, very interesting.

[Leo656]

I loved Affleck as Daredevil.

Movie needed some polish... Director's Cut is better... but HE was great in it.

Bullseye was also a triumph. That movie (along with Tom Jane's "Punisher") both suffered from coming out in that weird window where nobody could figure out comic book movies. And so they'd make these ones like "Daredevil" and "Punisher" that were MOSTLY good, and really faithful to the comics, but had this weird disconnect between being incredibly "real" and shockingly goofy at the same time. They weren't "bad movies", though. Just bipolar.

Aqua, you sonofabitch... my post makes no sense now that you've deleted the joke about Affleck as Daredevil.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I loved Affleck as Daredevil.

Movie needed some polish... Director's Cut is better... but HE was great in it.

Bullseye was also a triumph. That movie (along with Tom Jane's "Punisher") both suffered from coming out in that weird window where nobody could figure out comic book movies. And so they'd make these ones like "Daredevil" and "Punisher" that were MOSTLY good, and really faithful to the comics, but had this weird disconnect between being incredibly "real" and shockingly goofy at the same time. They weren't "bad movies", though. Just bipolar.

Yeah, I actually don't say that to make fun of the movie, but it'd just be too freakin crazy. I always kind of liked that Daredevil movie, but to be honest, I haven't seen it in a while and I do recognize some of the complaints. Yeah, Affleck was good.

- Yes, i edited my post and made you look crazy, sorry. If it makes you feel better, you quoted me under the name "Cybercubed" a few posts up! lol.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Yeah, I actually don't say that to make fun of the movie, but it'd just be too freakin crazy. I always kind of liked that Daredevil movie, but to be honest, I haven't seen it in a while and I do recognize some of the complaints. Yeah, Affleck was good.

- Yes, i edited my post and made you look crazy, sorry. If it makes you feel better, you quoted me under the name "Cybercubed" a few posts up! lol.

Sh*t, I'll fix it. My Copy/Paste thing was goofy. Doing a lot at once.

Anyways.

As for your other hypotheticals, since we're just spitballing Wishful Thinking stuff, I got one:

"Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt", starring Andrew Garfield and directed by Zack Snyder

((Mic Drop))

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sh*t, I'll fix it. My Copy/Paste thing was goofy. Doing a lot at once.

Anyways.

As for your other hypotheticals, since we're just spitballing Wishful Thinking stuff, I got one:

"Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt", starring Andrew Garfield and directed by Zack Snyder

((Mic Drop))

I'd def see that.

My first instinct was that maybe he wouldn't be right for such a slow burn, mellow story....but I'm thinking about how much diversity there really was in JL - even just the bank heist scene was both frightening at times, and heartfelt at others. So he is probably capable of more than I am giving credit for.
The action is sort of subdued in that story, as is, however. I'm inclined to imagine him doing something bombastic, but maybe he needs to flex other muscles now.

[Leo656]

It would be worth it for the shot of Kraven eating all the spiders, and Peter digging himself out of the grave.

Snyder's cinematography with Junkie XL's score aaaaaaand I just jizzed a little.

[AquaParade]

Good point. There is a ton of great imagery in that book that I'm not thinking about. Spider-Man emerging from the grave, Kraven eating spiders, Kraven's silhouette in his final moments.

Plus, it sure would be something to see beastly Kraven paroling the streets in Spider-Man's outfit, under Zack's direction.

[ZariusTwo]

Snyder should direct all the DeMatties Spider-Man stories.

[CyberCubed]

Amy Adams looked kinda old in this movie, didn't she? I mean I know she's not young anymore, but having watched a lot of her older stuff it's really apparent how much age creeps on female actress, even millionaires who have all of "Hollywood magic" to keep them looking young.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Snyder should direct all the DeMatties Spider-Man stories.

He can start with this one



Seriously though I love how he can flit between really serious and humorous without it seeming jarring.