Official Justice League Movie

[Leo656]

I agree with pretty much all of that longer post. Maybe not to the same degree on This or That little thing here or there, but yeah, really spot-on.

- I do wish there had been a couple of lines of dialog about how maybe Superman wasn't able to harness solar energy as efficiently after being revived, and the fight with the League had exhausted his stored supply or something, and that the black suit was necessary to help him get back to full power more quickly. Like a lot of things Zack does, "we" know what it's rooted in and what it's supposed to mean but people who don't read comics wouldn't know, and to them it's confusing. I do see some people complaining that "Snyder just has Superman wearing black because it looks cool", and they genuinely don't know about the whole "regeneration suit" angle from the comics - and I do admit that "It just looks cool" was probably a factor as well - so it would have been nice to add a bit more context to it.

I'm also not so in love with the black suit that I would keep it past the story of this specific movie, and I would have switched back to the classic suit for the finale, the shirt-rip scene. That scene definitely would have hit harder if he was wearing the classic suit under his Clark outfit. BUT, supposedly Zack wanted to save him switching back to the blue suit for JL3 so it would be more "symbolic". It's a choice. It's not what I would have done and I don't think most people would support it, because we've seen how impatient and insistent people can be. "At least he's got that suit that's so over-saturated blue that it's practically glowing!" was one of the few things people liked about Whedon's cut, so I'm quite certain that people would have been annoyed to no end about having to wait until JL3 to see him in the real suit again, "symbolism" or no. But it's a choice. I respect it even if I don't agree with it.

- Regarding the dirt rising off of Superman's coffin at the end of BvS, I'd have to look it up but at one point way, way back Zack admitted in an interview that it was just something to clue the audience in at the end of BvS that Superman was going to come back in the next movie so they wouldn't assume otherwise. It wasn't specifically going to have anything to do with how he'd come back or be revived or whatever, it was just something to signal to the audience that he'd be back, and sooner than we might think. I admit that I was reading a lot into the dirt rising before the theatrical cut of JL came out, looking at it as a "clue", until I read where Zack said "It's not a clue, it's just visual shorthand, don't overthink it." Just to clarify.

[Turo602]

I remember hearing something like that too, but it just seems like bad storytelling. We shouldn't have to rely on outside information to understand a movie, especially for those who are familiar with the Death of Superman story and know Superman ain't really dead. Just seems like a blatant misdirection.

[AquaParade]

I love the shot of the dirt rising off the coffin.

[Leo656]

Eh, I saw a lot of rubes who don't read comics assuming that since he was dead he was going to stay dead. Some of them didn't even notice the dirt move (or didn't even see BvS and were just reacting to things they read).

So it's like, there wasn't much they could do to assuage people either way. A lot of people stayed mad because they wanted to. "He's dead? That's terrible!" "He'll be back in the next movie, relax." "They're chickening out and bringing him back already? That's terrible!" Like no matter what they did, people would have complained about it from either direction because they were hellbent on complaining.

Since people were going to be annoyed that he got killed off in the first place, and impatient to see him come back, foreshadowing it in some way was definitely a smart thing to do, even if it wasn't entirely connected to the way he actually was revived. It's easy for us to say "Well of course he was coming back", because we know, but never underestimate how ignorant the general public is. I remember a ton of people on FB when they were advertising the theatrical release of JL saying "Why are they advertising Superman in this, I thought he was dead?" Seriously! And you'd be like "He comes back," and they're like "That's stupid," and you'd be like "He came back in the comics, that's how it works," and they'd just be like "That's why comics are stupid, if he died in a movie he should stay dead," and blah blah blah.

People are dumb. Sometimes you have to spoonfeed them.

My headcanon for that shot of the dirt is that his dead body still had some solar energy stored up in it after almost 35 years of storage. It's as good an explanation as any for something that purposely isn't meant to be over-thought, I figure. They could have done more with it, sure, but eh. I'm fine with it being "just a thing that they did."

I mean, tons of movies do "worse". Remember at the end of that one X-Men movie, I forget which one, but they had that one character turn out to be Mystique, and then in the next movie it was ignored and they never mentioned it again? That was terrible! And then the people who made it were like "Yeah, we just didn't know how to end the movie and we figured that would be cool," and it's like "Wow, way to make people think that it was something super-important when in truth you're just putting exactly zero thought into these things.

As for this, though:

Originally Posted by Turo602

especially for those who are familiar with the Death of Superman story and know Superman ain't really dead.

I know they've kind of hemmed-and-hawed about it over the years, but it's always been my reading of the material that he WAS actually dead. I know in some stories they sell it like he was just in "deep hibernation", but I know there were at least two stories that explicitly said "No, that wasn't it." I believe that at least one of those was written by Jurgens, in which case I'd say his canon supersedes others. I'd have to do some re-reading, but I very much remember a scene with Superman and Batman, where Superman floats the "I wasn't really dead, though," and Batman is like "Yes you were. We just told ourselves you weren't because it makes us feel better about the whole thing. But you were definitely dead." May have been the "Day of Doom" mini-series they put out for the 10-year anniversary, but I'd have to check.

Furthermore, he was briefly a Black Lantern during "Blackest Night" along with the other heroes who'd been killed and revived, so that seems pretty cut-and-dry. And all the stuff in Adventures of Superman #500 is a lot more powerful if it was "real" and not just something Jonathan Kent hallucinated while he was having a heart attack (although the material can certainly be read either way).

I don't know. They've occasionally tried to walk it back, but I've always read the material as sincere and that he actually did die. Whenever they try to walk it back, it seems to come from writers who simply hated the whole Death story, but it contradicts too much of what's been written elsewhere.

[AquaParade]

It's crazy that this drags less than BvS, given the length.

It actually makes BvS look pretty bad in my eyes. I'd like a trimmed down version of that movie, because I'm in love with a few key Batman and Superman scenes, but dislike a lot about the rest.

[CyberCubed]

Probably because with the chapter breaks you feel like you're watching several episodes of a TV show rather than a long movie. They even originally advertised this before it came out as a "mini-series' and the original plan was to split it up into 4 episodes if I remember right airing on 4 separate days.

That's why many say, if HBO/WB greenlit a sequel, Snyder being able to do another 4 hour movie and being treated like a series would be ideal. It was always rather obvious just a measly 2 hours was not enough for the storytelling he wanted.

[Leo656]

I read an interview with Harry Lennix where he said he was thrilled with the movie and overjoyed to see "himself" as Martian Manhunter. He also said he loves working with Zack and really hopes that they get the green light to do more, however unlikely that may be.

Zack really seems like a great guy. You hear all these Hollywood horror stories but you never hear a bad word about him, and everybody he's ever worked with practically fall over themselves gushing about how great he is to work with, everybody from the actors to the behind-the-scenes staff.

His work is polarizing to audiences but everybody in the business seems to have nothing but admiration for him and his work, except of course the people who handle the money. I don't know, stuff like that just makes me smile.

[CyberCubed]

Ben Affleck said he loved the Snyder Cut and would like to continue to play Batman after the Flashpoint movie. I wonder if he can get his own movie on top of the Matt Reeves Batman reboot movie.

[Leo656]

It's always been pretty clear to me that Affleck's lack of enthusiasm had very little to do with Zack, or "being Batman", and everything to do with getting jerked around by WB.

Lots of people were like, "He got pouty because of the reviews" or "He never had his heart in it." Nah. He just felt bait-and-switched and furthermore it all went down at a rather bad period in his personal life. Zack has described dealing with WB during the principal photography on JL before he left as "a fight", and I'm sure it wasn't just exhausting for him but for everyone.

Some of These People are talking almost like they know more than we do about whether or not we'll get to see more. I don't want to get my hopes up, but like I said earlier, "Impossible" no longer applies. Not after this. This movie exists and it's getting a (mostly) good reaction. Both of those things were "impossible". They could announce JL2 and JL3 tomorrow and at this point I wouldn't even blink.

I won't get my hopes up. Because I don't want my heart broken. But it wouldn't shock me at all, now.

[Andrew NDB]

Watched a good portion of it now. It really is astounding how much better Bruce is, and how much better Diana is in this. That terrorist scene was great. The Themyscira stuff seems so much more powerful now.

Also, I see someone post that the girl singing to Aquaman... if you pause it in the right moment you can see her eyes flash red (i.e., she's MM)? Is this B.S.?

[CyberCubed]

I didn't notice anything about that girl...but if MM has nothing better to do than transform into a little girl singing about Aquaman he has too much free time on his hand.

[Leo656]

It's a Zack Snyder movie... if the girl were meant to be J'onn, they would have beaten us over the head with it. In Slow-motion, most likely.

[Andrew NDB]

Almost at the end of it now. A few things:

Spoiler:

* No way was MM always Martha in the original Snyder version. Guaranteed he added that. As it was, no was no good reason for MM to do that (that little "we need Lois to be strong, too" doesn't cut it)... and it would have been way too easy for Lois to debunk it. Like, what happens when she gives the real Martha a call in a few days to thank her for the visit? Yikes.

Though either way... I'm glad they did it. That was a nice thing to see.

* Maybe it's Ray Fisher's real life antics coloring my opinion of his performance... but he is really, really prissy and jerk-like in every scene here. He bothers me way more than he did in the Whedon cut... probably because the Whedon cut barely had him in it, lol. There's just something about his performance... the way he struts around, glowering at everybody, exuding brattiness.

* Conversely, Barry Allen is still not remotely Barry-like but... he's a bit better here. He actually feels like a character, and he didn't before. He doesn't say a lot of the stupid things Whedon had him say and he's not scared to fight in this one, which is a big help.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Almost at the end of it now. A few things:

Spoiler:

* No way was MM always Lois in the original Snyder version. Guaranteed he added that. As it was, no was no good reason for MM to do that (that little "we need Lois to be strong, too" doesn't cut it)... and it would have been way too easy for Lois to debunk it. Like, what happens when she gives the real Martha a call in a few days to thank her for the visit? Yikes.

Though either way... I'm glad they did it. That was a nice thing to see.

* Maybe it's Ray Fisher's real life antics coloring my opinion of his performance... but he is really, really prissy and jerk-like in every scene here. He bothers me way more than he did in the Whedon cut... probably because the Whedon cut barely had him in it, lol. There's just something about his performance... the way he struts around, glowering at everybody, exuding brattiness.

That's definitely you projecting. He's emoting appropriately to the situation his character is in.

To the Spoiler part:
- I assume you mean "Martha" and not "Lois". That's okay, we all goof. I did one just a little while ago in another thread. I think we both ought'a slow down and ease up on the drinkin'! ...Or not.

- Snyder definitely had that planned early on, as the storyboard of that scene leaked out years and years ago already.

And yeah, there's a bit of a hole there if someone wants to make a case out of it, but eh. "Movie".

[Andrew NDB]

Gah! Everyone is still shouting "Clark!!!" right next to all of the police when Superman is shirtless and temporarily mad. That really bugged me in the Whedon cut.

I mean, at least just use "Kal El" instead.

Also, and this is in the Whedon cut also... how did Martha get "behind on her payments"? Did her and Pa Kent have like a 50 year mortgage or something? Were they just really sh**ty farmers for decades (and she wasn't like retired or anything... we see she is growing a huge cornfield in this movie)? There's no way she didn't own it. Property taxes she could be behind on, maybe, but that's not "payments to the bank."

[Leo656]

Yeah, that bugs me, too.

I think the logic of it is, "Appealing to his 'human' side might make him snap out of it", but still... like move the spectators out of earshot, at least.

It's not as big an issue for me as the fact that Clark Kent had an open-casket funeral in BvS, and yet even in this version we STILL get no explanation as to how "Clark Kent" is alive again by the end of it. That's one thing I was seriously hoping for but neither cut acknowledges it in the slightest. He's just walking around in the glasses again and we just have to kinda accept it.

[CyberCubed]

Cyborg is pissy in the movie because well...he's supposed to be. His father rebuilt him as a cyborg and he's getting used to all his new powers and working with other heroes the first time. Had he been around for a sequel I'm sure he'd be much more relaxed next time.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I thought he had a great arc and sold it perfectly.

Supposedly one'a the guys from that Lucifer show wants to direct Ray Fisher in a project now, after seeing this movie. I forget the guy's name, I don't watch the show. But I read about it yesterday and thought that was pretty cool.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Also, and this is in the Whedon cut also... how did Martha get "behind on her payments"? Did her and Pa Kent have like a 50 year mortgage or something? Were they just really sh**ty farmers for decades (and she wasn't like retired or anything... we see she is growing a huge cornfield in this movie)? There's no way she didn't own it. Property taxes she could be behind on, maybe, but that's not "payments to the bank."

I'm not sure how any of that works, but it sounds like a question for John Mellencamp. He definitely seems like the guy to ask.

[Andrew NDB]

Also, with as vastly better Superman looks without bad CGI mouth replacement... he barely even speaks in this.