Godzilla vs. Kong

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Powder

The complaints most of you have lead me to believe none of you like or probably bothered watching the majority of Toho's Godzilla movies. Some of the criticism is valid, sure, & I'm not saying you shouldn't expect "better", either, but just about everything was par the course for this property. This & KOTM both were like love letters to the Heisei/Showa era Godzilla films. Same patterns, pacing, acceleration of absurdity/humor, various plots, expendable characters, exposition dumps, etc. Yeah, the American development teams could have used this opportunity to "right some wrongs" if you wanna look at it that way, but I'm glad that they just put the western spin on tradition rather than taking things too seriously or making us over-invest in the human casts.

I haven't seen all or even most, but I know for a fact I've seen ones where the plot actually made sense and the human characters weren't all a complete waste of time.

If they made this movie based on "Only people who liked the Japanese kaiju movies are going to 'get it'," then that's probably a mistake. Maybe it explains some of why the script was so bad or the characters so loathsome. It does NOT excuse it.

It's like "Terminator: Genisys" trying super-hard to mimic scenes from T1 and T2 and be a "love letter" to those films. Okay, nice, thanks for the effort, but every other thing in that movie was absolutely terrible so the effort was wasted.

Again, I liked the other three movies in this series more than most people did, based on what I generally see and hear. Based on Those Movies, I had certain expectations for this one; specifically, that the non-kaiju parts of the movie might be "lesser", but not explicitly terrible. But they ARE terrible. The ONLY parts of the movie worth re-watching are the monster fights, and that's a failure. The other movies didn't "go there", and it's silly to imply that they didn't have to make a good movie Just Because, for This or That reason. They already made three good movies, in my opinion. If they suddenly up and decided, Just For Fun, "What if we tried making a piece of crap, instead?", well... I can't help it, that bothers me.

I'm kind of looking forward to the Blu-ray, because a LOT of people are pointing out that there almost certainly was at least a half hour of Plot & Character stuff that was left on the cutting room floor in order to get to the action scenes quicker, and that almost certainly has to be true. There was a much better movie to be built somewhere on the bones of This One.

I'm glad some people got some sincere and heartfelt enjoyment out of it. I really, REALLY wanted to; I was all-in after the previous three and this was one of the very few movies I was looking forward to watching this year, because most of what's coming out looks lousy. But I had high hopes for this. And I keep having to tell myself that I didn't hate it. And that's bad.

And it just seems kind of silly to insist that "It's great if you Just Don't Care about it being any good in an objective sense," or "It's great if you know a bunch of old Japanese monster movies backwards and forwards." Like I have no doubt whatsoever that that does help, and on some level that's good; except the previous three films didn't have that specific limitation/"demand" and they were all still enjoyable. Warts and all, I would still argue that KOTM is a "good movie" on its own terms. I can't in good faith argue that with this one.

My problem isn't that they "went Japanese" with it. My problem is that objectively, this movie has one of the worst scripts and worst acting I've seen in a movie in a very long time. And the fact that it may have been "bad on purpose" doesn't make it sit any better with me at all, after three previous films that were NOT "bad on purpose". That argument feels like a cop-out, quite frankly.

After three other good movies, I was sincerely hoping that this franchise would end with more of a Bang and less of a Whimper.

I cannot stress enough that I really, really, REALLY wanted to like this movie.

[AquaParade]

I hear ya, Powder.

That said, a fan of the Toho films was digging into me a bit, saying that if I didn't enjoy KOTM, than I wouldn't enjoy "most Godzilla films", which I took some issue with. I get that the TOHO films are goofy, but they aren't the end-all, be-all to the franchise. To stick with this example, when that person asked if I had "even seen the older films", I cited 1954 as being an older film that wasn't goofy at all. Apparently that was an "extreme example."

I don't know, I guess I'm just sort of venting. Powder laid his perspective out perfectly well, but it seems like there are some TOHO fans out there that get defensive when you call these last two films out and want to sort of imply that you're not really a Godzilla fan (or some ****) if you don't acknowledge and therefor appreciate the goofier side of the franchise. Most intelligent people realize that there are many ways to interpret the character.

And lastly, to be clear, I'm not against Godzilla movies being goofy. I was perfectly prepared to step into the "WWE" of Godzilla movies with this film, but I had nothing to grab onto, because I found the story, and even the action to be lacking.

[Allio]

From Shin-Godzilla to Son of Godzilla, Godzilla is like TMNT in the extremes it takes.

My personal favorite Godzilla films are (in no Particular order)

1954, Vs. Biollante, Against Mecha Godzilla, GMK (this is basically if Godzilla was the Grudge), and Shin Godzilla.

For a good western Godzilla, Half Century War is near perfection. If none of you have read it, you really have done yourself a disservice.

[Leo656]

I'm the type of "fan" that pretty much abhors the "goofy sh*t" in the franchise but can still accept it because that's not ALL the franchise is. But if someone tried to tell me that I wasn't a "Godzilla fan" because I'd rather watch the more "serious" movies than the goofy ones, I'd have to slap that person.

And again, I swear they could have made a movie that was more of a "Japanese" bent without having a plot that was incomprehensible, a set of characters that were entirely expendable, and acting that was atrocious. If THAT is the kind of stuff people identify as "Authentic Godzilla", then I'd argue that they're not giving the franchise nearly enough credit.

Like, some people argue that "Final Wars" is a "bad" Godzilla movie, or "only good because of fanservice". I disagree! It's definitely a Fanservice Movie first and foremost but it in no way was a haphazard mess.

I think you CAN lean into "fanservice" and still make a genuinely Good Movie. I'm not convinced that they even tried to do that with this one.

[Allio]

Final Wars is okay, but just KoTM I find it just passable. In the millennium series I would put it at # 4, maybe even 5. I prefer it over Godzilla 2000 at least. There just wasn’t a lot of investment in the Kaiju fights until Monster X appeared.

In GVK’s defense despite the whole pandemic taking a toll on the movie theatre and the movie being “free” on HBOmax, it seems to be doing fine.

[Leo656]

Yeah, but that doesn't fill me with any kind of "hope".

So many "critics" and fans openly saying, "We've all been cooped up so long, we need a big dumb CGI smash-fest to make us forget the overwhelming misery outside. We need comfort food." Maybe *YOU* need that, *I* needed a Good Movie. I'm not so overwhelmed by the "misery" of Real Life that I can watch any movie and just ignore it when I want every single character on my screen to spontaneously combust.

The movie isn't doing well because it's GOOD, it's doing well because everyone is so bored they've dropped all pretense of standards. They're very open about that. That's BAD.

We all deserved a lot better than what is, ultimately, a half hour of a Very Good ScrewAttack "Death Battle" video stapled onto another hour of one of the worst movies ever made. There's not a single minute of the movie that's worth watching aside from the Monster Fight stuff, and I'm sorry, that's just plain indefensible.

And the Monster Fight stuff admittedly IS very good; some of the best ever, perhaps. But the rest of the movie didn't need to be SO terrible. Again, if that stuff was the only point of the project's existence then a ScrewAttack video would have more than sufficed; they didn't need to waste everyone's time and all that money making a movie that isn't objectively any good. Especially after three others that WERE various degrees of Good. But I honestly can't imagine anyone willingly watching this entire movie over from beginning to end without jumping right to the Good Parts and skipping everything else, because Everything Else is rotten.

I just wish the movie was doing well because it DESERVED to do well, not just because Everyone Is Bored.

[Allio]

Eh, I mean enjoy a film or don’t enjoy a film. Way too much for my pay grade for a film I found “alright.” I’ve already said my piece. I personally don’t give a sh!t about the lowest common denominator when it comes to movie goers.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

If they made this movie based on "Only people who liked the Japanese kaiju movies are going to 'get it'," then that's probably a mistake. Maybe it explains some of why the script was so bad or the characters so loathsome. It does NOT excuse it.

It's like "Terminator: Genisys" trying super-hard to mimic scenes from T1 and T2 and be a "love letter" to those films. Okay, nice, thanks for the effort, but every other thing in that movie was absolutely terrible so the effort was wasted.

Which always struck me as stupid and counterproductive. "Remember T1 and T2? Those were the best ones, right? Well, here's Genisys... we will revisit them and also WIPE THEM OUT OF CONTINUITY at the same time! How's that for a laugh?"

And no offense to folks, but saying "If you don't like KOTM and GvK that means you didn't watch the Toho stuff" isn't too dissimilar from, let's say some other Fred Wolf-style movie comes out with Bebop and cowabunga and all of that, and saying, "You can't not like the movie! This means you didn't watch the old cartoon!" F*** that cartoon, and I don't care about the Toho movies. What they did with KOTM and GvK is straight up baiting and switching audiences after a very strong lead-in, strong reimagination of things with Godzilla (2014) and Skull Island. It's not even too different from how things shifted from Batman and Batman Returns then into Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

[Allio]

It’s like I mentioned before the danger of being so versatile, anyone that has “their” version of that franchise, kind of like you and Mirage TMNT.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Which always struck me as stupid and counterproductive. "Remember T1 and T2? Those were the best ones, right? Well, here's Genisys... we will revisit them and also WIPE THEM OUT OF CONTINUITY at the same time! How's that for a laugh?"

And no offense to folks, but saying "If you don't like KOTM and GvK that means you didn't watch the Toho stuff" isn't too dissimilar from, let's say some other Fred Wolf-style movie comes out with Bebop and cowabunga and all of that, and saying, "You can't not like the movie! This means you didn't watch the old cartoon!" F*** that cartoon, and I don't care about the Toho movies. What they did with KOTM and GvK is straight up baiting and switching audiences after a very strong lead-in, strong reimagination of things with Godzilla (2014) and Skull Island. It's not even too different from how things shifted from Batman and Batman Returns then into Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

Great post... even though I still like KOTM.

I mean, if we keep it strictly to movies, and compare This Franchise to TMNT, it's like TMNT 1990 is everything great about the TMNT franchise, and "Out of the Shadows is the absolute nadir, a collection of all the worst things connected to the franchise, and just plain a rotten movie besides. And over here, we have "Kong: Skull Island", which is arguably everything great about these kinds of monster movies (along with SOLID PROOF that "They're all stupid by design, anyway" is 100% False; you CAN make a "real movie" and make it a good one, anytime you want to), and then you have GvK, which is everything bad about kaiju movies, up to and including "No need for plot, these movies are for morons anyway."

Like... do people LIKE being called a moron to their face when they sit down to watch a movie? I know *I* sure don't.

[Allio]

I mean the only thing that Skull Island really has over GVK is the characters. And it isn’t like the character’s are “memorable,” as I can’t even remember their names, but like Pacific Rim it’s easy to remember them by their cliches. Outside of really John Goodman’s character everyone was pretty one note.

[Leo656]

The characters and plot in "Skull Island" at least had a reason to exist beyond mere exposition and/or bad "comedy", and that puts it ahead about 10 points automatically. I can't remember anyone's name in that movie, either, but I'm bad with that in movies anyway, and I never fault the movie for that, I'm just plain bad with names (even in real life). "Did the words coming out of their mouths make sense, and did they make me want to set them on fire or not?" That's my only criteria. I liked the characters in "Skull Island"; I wanted EVERY single character in GvK dead. They all had serious "X-Pac Heat" with me. "Just GO AWAY already." Except Deaf Kid and Scientist Mommy. They were tolerable. Everyone else was awful without exception.

I was hesitant to even bring "Pacific Rim" into the conversation because that's not even fair to every other kaiju movie that's ever been made. They barely even play the same sport. "Pacific Rim" is a "real movie" that happens to be about kaiju; everything else is a "monster movie" that might be Pretty Okay or Just Plain Awful depending on circumstance. It seems almost unfair to compare. PR is like the "Citizen Kane" of kaiju movies, in part because it's just about the only one to aspire for something greater that "disposable popcorn entertainment" and it succeeds masterfully. I don't swing from Del Toro's balls the way some people do, but after seeing how bad the sequel to THAT movie turned out to be, I think it's safe to say that only his type of "vision" can produce something at that level of quality. And he's a rather unique individual, so by no means do I even attempt to hold OTHER kaiju movies to THAT rather lofty and unobtainable standard. Doesn't seem fair to.

I'm actually not even that hard to please, I swear to God. All I ask, generally, is that a movie make me feel SOMETHING, and that "something" is more than "Let this thing be over already." But that's all I felt with this one, aside from the fight scenes. I was engaged for every minute of the previous three films, including KOTM which most people swear is awful. They had me. They HAD me! I didn't even read a lot about the build-up to this movie because I *assumed* that it would be good, since the others were. Today I read a bit and found out that apparently the director's never in his life made a very good movie, and had I known that, well... I may have had some different expectations. Silly me, for thinking "There's no way that they'll whiff after three solid hits in a row." That'll teach ME a lesson, I guess.

Like now that I know he's the one doing the Thundercats movie, I know to expect THAT movie to be sh*t, too. Which is a shame, but at least I know not to bother with it. This is the only movie of his that I've actually seen, but now that I've seen what he does with a franchise that is "for dummies anyway" and therefore "no need to Try Hard"... yeah, not gonna bother with "Thundercats", I've seen where this guy's priorities are.

Of course, any movie with five (!!!) different credited writers is a giant Red Flag, anyway. And let's just stop and think about that for a second: FIVE people, working collectively, produced THAT script. Was it written in crayon? Were they EATING the crayons? How old were these five alleged "writers" who crapped out that script? Because if a single one of them was older than 7, I'm appalled and disgusted.

[Allio]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I was hesitant to even bring "Pacific Rim" into the conversation because that's not even fair to every other kaiju movie that's ever been made. They barely even play the same sport. "Pacific Rim" is a "real movie" that happens to be about kaiju; everything else is a "monster movie" that might be Pretty Okay or Just Plain Awful depending on circumstance. It seems almost unfair to compare. PR is like the "Citizen Kane" of kaiju movies, in part because it's just about the only one to aspire for something greater that "disposable popcorn entertainment" and it succeeds masterfully. I don't swing from Del Toro's balls the way some people do, but after seeing how bad the sequel to THAT movie turned out to be, I think it's safe to say that only his type of "vision" can produce something at that level of quality. And he's a rather unique individual, so by no means do I even attempt to hold OTHER kaiju movies to THAT rather lofty and unobtainable standard. Doesn't seem fair .

Look I’m not trying to attack your taste or something, and I really like Pacific Rim as well, but I have to ask seriously? It’s like an amalgamation of every Kaiju cliche in the genre. Don’t get me wrong it’s fine as the “fan of anime” that Del Toro was going for, but I just don’t see it as the “citizen Kane” of Kaiju flicks. Do you mean just western standards? I mean I guess that’s fine, but that’s like saying Western “The Ring” is a good J-Horror. I love pacific Rim, but it’s a 5/10.

It’s like calling “The Walking Dead” the best zombie story, it could be someone’s favorite but it literally is everything that is Zombie stories (which is one of the worst sub-genres because of her generic 98% of it is.)

Like I get liking Pacific Rim, but it is just so “yeah, it’s a Kaiju flick.” Nothing is wrong about it, but nothing is inoffensive to it.

[Leo656]

Let's assess:

- Takes the material seriously? Check.
- Characters who are more than Exposition Machines or Disposable Fodder? Check.
- A plot that's easy to understand but doesn't treat the audience like idiots? Check.
- Doesn't just play stupid and do stupid stuff that doesn't make sense, because "These types of movies are all Dumb Sh*t For Retards anyhow"? Check.
- Good action? Check.
- Actual stakes? Check.
- Good SFX? Check.

Let's be honest: MOST kaiju movies ARE "Stupid Sh*t For Dummies", with very rare exceptions. "Pacific Rim" is one of the only ones that even TRIES to aim higher, and it succeeds. What's "wrong" with it? Be forewarned, if you try and argue that it wasn't any good because "Not Enough Monster Mash", I'm going to roll my eyes so hard they'll probably detach and I'll be sure and send you the hospital bill.

And saying you "love" something and then in the same breath calling it "5/10" literally makes no sense. 5/10 means "I tolerated it". Like, WTF?

[Allio]

Like I said there is nothing wrong with it per se, you listed everything that should be the bare minimum: though I would take points from SFX, the jaegers never looked good in the day time scenes which is just why people use darkness to cover up CGI; and I disagree with “more than ... disposable fodder” everyone that wasn’t Gypsy Danger was just walking death flags. Which isn’t bad, just adds to the fact everyone is just anime cliches. Cherno Alpha is my favorite Jaeger but I couldn’t tell you nothing about them outside of “being Russian” I can’t even remember if they were married or brother and sister (I want to say it’s the latter?) everything else listed there is the minimum requirement to tell a good Kaiju story.

Just compared to the best Kaiju films, there just is no comparison to the genre’s best. The Gamera 90’s trilogy is arguably perfection.


As for monster mash, I thought it had a lot? Did it not? Yes, I remember there was like 40 minutes of talking after a 20 (?) minute cold opening, but after those 40 minutes it was almost non-stop action.

Again, to use this movie to introduce a person to Kaiju is fine, the movie is inoffensive. To say it’s the best just isn’t true. If a person asked me “I want to watch a Good Kaiju film, but I don’t want to read subtitles or seen their lips not match their words” then... yeah? I’d probably recommend Pacific Rim.


Though if I had one issue with the film. Outside of Knifehead and Otachi, all the Kaiju were boring in design. I like that they were designed as if to be a guy in a suit, but outside of that I just don’t like the designs....Not as bad as PI$$ Goldar from Power Rangers’17, but still not that good.

In some places a 5/10 is average grading (so I guess for you a 7/10)I love it for just being an overall okay Kaiju film, It just wouldn’t be my choice for “Best Kaiju film award.” I give Pacific Rim points for it’s Drifting mechanic, but that’s just a nice gimmick.

Just saying, calling Pacific Rim the “closest thing to Citizen Kane” (which is a phrase I find as tiring as “The dark souls of ______”) is pushing it.

I’m sure it’s someone’s number 1 Kaiju film, but for me it’s an honerable mention at best.

[Leo656]

5/10 is a solid F- where I went to school, buddy. Not even an F, an F-. You are correct that around here a 7/10 is an average or "C grade".

Look, I'm gonna politely reiterate that I haven't seen about 90% of the Japanese kaiju flicks that exist. And not to be insulting or dismissive, but most people who aren't "weebs" won't, either. That's just the way it is.

Therefore, when I'm saying things like "Pacific Rim is like the Citizen Kane of kaiju movies", it could perhaps be clarified with the statement that "I can actually get an average non-kaiju fanatic to sit through it and they won't think it's dumb." Fair or Unfair, MOST people view kaiju movies - particularly the Japanese ones - as being something less than "Real Movies".

You might be perfectly correct in stating that the 90s Gamera trilogy is the true pinnacle of these types of films. I, personally, don't know. That might change one day; I plan to live a while yet, and I do like monster movies. However, one thing I DO know, is that aside from my wife there's a 0% chance that I'd ever get anyone in my circle of friends or family to ever watch them to find out what they think. Right or wrong, Fair or Unfair, most of the people I know personally look down quite strongly upon Japanese kaiju films. "Those aren't Real Movies", to them, and there's no changing their minds. I think that's unfairly dismissive on their part, but it is, indeed, the way they - and truthfully, Most People - do think.

BUT. A lot of those same people watched "Pacific Rim" and liked it a whole bunch. "It felt like a Real Movie and it was good." Most people in my circle were quite shocked by how good it actually was, compared to what their own expectations for these types of movies generally are. Anecdotal, sure, but I still feel that it bears mentioning. Among a group of diverse people who have little in common but almost universally feel like kaiju movies are junk food by design, "Simple Things For Simple Minds", they all felt like "Pacific Rim" was not only a triumph as a film but also in fact an elevation of an entire genre of movies.

I've never screened it for anyone who didn't like it a lot. I can't even get them to watch the original "Gojira", or "Final Wars", or anything like that, and most of them were underwhelmed by the recent Godzilla solo flick to the point where they haven't watched any of the ones since. But in Real Life, I've never met anyone who was underwhelmed by "Pacific Rim". That's a shoot, brother. Again, "It's actually a Real Movie!" is a common refrain.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that "Pacific Rim" is the "Dark Knight of kaiju movies", in that even people who loathe comic book movies in general still loved "The Dark Knight", because that too "was a Real Movie" whereas most others in the same genre settle willingly for being junk. I suppose that would be a slightly less-hyperbolic and more accurate analogy, sure.

It still feels unfair to compare that movie to just about anything else in the genre, though, especially the American attempts. I cannot stress enough that regardless of subject matter, I sincerely appreciate it when a movie refuses to talk to me like I'm an idiot. That goes a super-long way, with me.

[Allio]

I mean it’s like I said. Pacific Rim is a nice introductory Kaiju film. Fine for newbies.

[Leo656]

At least it didn't have a script written by FIVE people where "Guy showers with bleach, rants about fluoride in the drinking water" passes for "Plot" and "Character Development".

I'm still trying to figure out how the monkey wasn't crushed to pulp by the whole gravity-inversion thing. Are we to believe he's just THAT much more dense than an average person or ship or whatever? The humans need Magic Ships to get to Hollow Earth, but Kong just jumps in and out like he's diving into the pool, no ill effect whatsoever.

I'm no physicist, but that... that doesn't seem quite right.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Allio

I mean it’s like I said. Pacific Rim is a nice introductory Kaiju film. Fine for newbies.

I think the mistake here is the repeated assumption that most people are going to watch Pacific Rim (as a gateway drug), then go on and enjoy a bunch of Toho-style kaiju movies. They probably wouldn't. And again, at the first sign of the new Monsterverse here going Toho-esque (KOTM)... audiences rejected it. It lost money.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think the mistake here is the repeated assumption that most people are going to watch Pacific Rim (as a gateway drug), then go on and enjoy a bunch of Toho-style kaiju movies. They probably wouldn't.

Nah, no way. Like I said, most of the people who were surprised by how good Pacific Rim was also think all kaiju movies are for weebs and nitwits. Pacific Rim is likely the only one of those types of movies they'd ever sit through willingly.

I mean, it is what it is. Everybody's heard me rave about how awesome Great Muta is, but unless he's wrestling Sting, they're not gonna give a sh*t. That's just the way people are.