The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[AquaParade]

I'm really hoping it doesn't take an eternity to get this series in a physical media format.

I get that they need to push the subscriptions hard, but think of the children! I can imagine being 13 and my dad is just like "Nah, we don't need Disney+, we already bought you half the movies on there." I had no agency with money until I was old enough to get a job. I was well enough off and got **** on my bday and Christmas, but my parents were stingy about that kind of stuff.

Or the hardcore fans. We need to own this ****. It's materialistic and weak, but we all have our vices. Plus, we'll easily double-dip if you space out the premieres and physical releases.

Yet, so far, no sign of even The Mandolarian Season 1 on disc.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The new Captain America would get along well with Homelander.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eyz0QCJW...jpg&name=small

Ouch! But true....

[Andrew NDB]

*sigh* So episode 5. Pretty much the big "America is horrible and racist" episode I feared was coming. Complete with Bucky apologizing for white people to Falcon.

Spoiler:

So that's it for Zemo? Lame. What a letdown. And why would the Wakandans take Zemo to the Raft? The Raft is controlled by the US government, who'd probably just give Zemo back to the German government if asked. This doesn't even make sense. Why were the Wakandans so worked up about getting Zemo to get their hands on him if they were just going to do this?

Weak penultimate episode. Nothing happens.

[neatoman]

Alright, I haven't watched the show and the following comment I'm about to make is more applicable to the comics, but isn't the Marvel Universe kind of a bizarre setting to feature a story about real-life type racism?

Not only is the mutant thing more or less meant to be an allegory for racism, but it would logically override racism. Mutants being persecuted (which yes, it won't be applicable to the MCU for a little while but will and it will probably be retconned as having gone on in the background) along with the common knowledge that aliens and sentient robots are running around (which are applicable to the MCU) would put things into perspective for the would be racists. If there are as many (if not more) mutants running around in the US as there are black people, why would anyone care if you're black when some guy who barely looks human because he has green fur and three eyes, is living next door? Especially if Mr Oscar the Triclops can, I don't know, cause dead wood to grow into full trees or something? And on a related topic, why fear people from some other country when you know Galactus can come around and eat earth one day?

I understand that Marvel has this insistance on making their fictional universe reasonably similar to the real world, I understand why the writers might feel tempted to deal with real life issues without using an allegory and I'm not saying any other fantasy setting can't deal with a real life issue like this. However, at some point you have to admit your setting just isn't similar enough to the real world to deal with it. The 9/11 issue of Spider-Man is probably the most awkward comic I have ever read in my entire life, not only does the Marvel Universe feature skyscrapers being knocked over all the time, they actually have supervillains who have done far worse things be saddened by the events. It's not awkward for Spider-Man to be distressed over the loss of lives but it is weird to see him act as if that particular scenario is something unusual to him.

Sorry if this really has nothing to do with the show, I just figured I might as well get it out.

[ZariusTwo]

God this one was boring

Spoiler:

This reinforced my point that anything but Sam and Bucky save this show from tediousness when it comes down to the personal stuff


Nice to see you Selina Myer

In some ways, it feels very much like a finale episode, but then you remember that Karlie and the 'Smashers are still out there, and ready to show their hand, so you wait patiently for that to kick off.


The slice of life stuff is the least interesting things about Sam and Bucky, I much prefer their characters in action and scenes that drive the thrust of the narrative tension. Training with the shield was pretty good as was the talk between Sam and Bucky. I think we need the montage song from Team America playing while Sam gets in shape also.


Overall, things happened, but a large chunk of it became filler. You could easily chop this down and add it to the finale runtime if needed.

[CyberCubed]

Honestly the flag-smasher characters are extremely boring so I prefer that this ep focused on Sam and Bucky. The opening fight against not!Captain America was good too. Zemo being arrested now makes sense if they want to bring him back later on for another movie as his role is done here.

I imagine all the bad guys will die in the last episode, but I wonder how they'll do it without making Sam and Bucky look like killers when that's what they made Captain American a villain in this ep about.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm really beginning to think these Disney+ shows are only imparted with the illusion of driving the greater MCU story forward.

Example:

WandaVision: When last we saw Wanda and Vision in the movies, Vision was deactivated and Wanda was angry as all hell. When next we'd see Wanda in the movies, she'd have fully embraced her Scarlet Witch persona. If we see Vision again in the films, a single line of dialogue could cover, "The government reactivated his body" and that's all that's needed. WandaVision is just filler, an extended version of her accepting her Scarlet Witch persona/powers.

Falcon & The Winter Soldier: When last we saw Falcon and Bucky in the movies, Steve gave Falcon the shield and presumably the mantle of Captain America. When next we see Falcon and Bucky, Falcon will have come around and accepted the mantle and be Captain America. Falcon & The Winter Soldier will have just been filler, an extended version of Falcon coming around to being Captain America.

And all the stuff about, "maybe we'll see the beginning of mutants, or ____, or ____" is just rubbish. And if anything interesting was coming in the Falcon & Winter Soldier finale, they would have at least teased it in this latest one.

[Andrew NDB]

Just saw the finale.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Falcon & The Winter Soldier: When last we saw Falcon and Bucky in the movies, Steve gave Falcon the shield and presumably the mantle of Captain America. When next we see Falcon and Bucky, Falcon will have come around and accepted the mantle and be Captain America. Falcon & The Winter Soldier will have just been filler, an extended version of Falcon coming around to being Captain America.

And all the stuff about, "maybe we'll see the beginning of mutants, or ____, or ____" is just rubbish. And if anything interesting was coming in the Falcon & Winter Soldier finale, they would have at least teased it in this latest one.

Yep. I called it. The whole show turned out to just be filler. And no surprises at all and the Omega Red stuff ended up being completely fake. The Flag Smashers ended up being nothing at all. The dumb rumors about

Spoiler:

Sharon

being the Power Broker were true. Lots of speeches about race stuff... Falcon tells the media that "millions of you hate to see me wearing this" because of his skin, I guess. Lame.

Extremely disappointing. These last 2 episodes really derailed... everything this show had going for it.

[AquaParade]

Yeah, I had an awful time with that episode. It felt incoherent. The action was poor and the plot felt cliche. Just bad.
Also, the costume looks bad. Keep the goggles and collar but lose the weird headgear piece that only works in the comics.

Pretty good series overall. I really dig episode 4.

[ZariusTwo]

For those miffed with

Spoiler:

Sharon...don't forget Secret Invasion is coming up, which will likely reveal this one is a Skrull

[Andrew NDB]

I wonder if that title change at the end of the episode means, #1, there will be a season 2, and #2, that's what it'll be called?

[AquaParade]

John Walker turned out to be the most interesting thing about this show. I know it's ironic in some way.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

John Walker turned out to be the most interesting thing about this show. I know it's ironic in some way.

Agreed. " Walker Did Nothing Wrong" and a vibing Zemo is all the hot takes anyone can walk away from with this.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Pretty good series overall. I really dig episode 4.

Everything was steadily getting better all the way through the end of episode 4... then they just nosedived everything, hard, with 5 and 6. I wonder if the pandemic had anything to do with this? Perhaps the many months they had to take off, during which they would have been exposed to the George Floyd riots and all of that, made them come back to the table and revise things to suitably ride that wave? Because 5 and 6, TPTB seem awfully interested in patting themselves on the back with how racially conscious they are, all of a sudden.

Also, I come out of the show not really knowing what to make of John Walker. Are we supposed to be fearful of him or dislike him? Is he going to be like a foil? Are we supposed to feel sorry for him? Welcome him as a flawed hero, or something? I'm just not clear on what they're doing here.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Walker is one of those "heroes" who skirts the line morally. As US Agent, he does a lot of shady stuff. And with Madame Hydra (spoilers, but pretty sure you all know that) behind the scenes with his new role, it's apt to be even shadier. Which is why I called him becoming "Hydra Cap". It makes sense, and would leave Steve's legacy intact. And yes, I fully endorse the Sharon as a skrull theory. That also would make sense, given that last scene of her.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Everything was steadily getting better all the way through the end of episode 4... then they just nosedived everything, hard, with 5 and 6. I wonder if the pandemic had anything to do with this? Perhaps the many months they had to take off, during which they would have been exposed to the George Floyd riots and all of that, made them come back to the table and revise things to suitably ride that wave? Because 5 and 6, TPTB seem awfully interested in patting themselves on the back with how racially conscious they are, all of a sudden.

Also, I come out of the show not really knowing what to make of John Walker. Are we supposed to be fearful of him or dislike him? Is he going to be like a foil? Are we supposed to feel sorry for him? Welcome him as a flawed hero, or something? I'm just not clear on what they're doing here.

You may have heard this by now, but apparently there were some meaningful reshoots due to the creative team dropping a "pandemic" story element from the show's storyline, for obvious reasons. Apparently they had to work around that, so perhaps it did take a toll of episode's 5 & 6.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

For those ranting on the race issue in the MCU, race has always been a thing in Marvel, probably much more than DC, even though there are mutants, aliens, and whatever else you want to name. Humans are dumb, tribal, selfish creatures, who can and WILL use any difference or opposing views to treat others "not like us" as garbage. Doesn't matter if it's a mutant or the Muslim family down the street. Marvel knows this, and has highlighted the fact more than once. Even anti-mutant activists will segregate by color or religion as a side-note. Which is why it has always been a big deal whenever a non-white or non-Christian hero has come along. Kitty Pryde was looked down at as much for being Jewish early on as she was for being a mutant! Ditto for heroes like Falcon, Warpath, Miles Morales, Thunderbird, Karma, and others. All had racial issues to deal with in addition to whatever rep they have had as heroes. Kamala Kham is another recent one, dealing with anto-Muslim sentiments as part of her hero life.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

For those ranting on the race issue in the MCU, race has always been a thing in Marvel

This has become the cliche response to this topic. "Race issues were always present in the books". And to an extent that's true, but it's just an answer where people mistake it for an intellectual-win. And it's an answer drawn from the environment the books were being designed in. Another time. And so the point to this now common response? That was a different era. It seems to me that more and more people just drum up "race topics" as a convenient way to issue a storyarc celebrated by a low-information viewer. What do I mean by that?

I mean for God's sake - give some consideration to the manipulation and hypocrisy -

"They will NEVER! Let a Black man! BE. Captain America!"
On a show. Where "they" are not only "letting" but watching. A Black man! BE. Captain America.

F'n nonsense and it's old.

And as a point for the virtue signalers who need to get-on-board. With. EVERY. F'n. Race card issue as if you are pure and righteous lil angels. I say this:

We are at a point where Hollywood has created a new token black person. Hollywood is routinely stating that black people are nothing more than a race battle in life, and full of angst towards the country. And you are all biting it hook, line and sinker.

Hollywood, in every "black initiative", creates a race card situation to address. No matter what. Hollywood, that YOU are celebrating over there, while most of you are white as a damn daisy, does nothing but address the "plight of black people" as if their lives or endeavors are nothing more than "woe is me race-culture of black people". THAT is what Hollywood is doing. Hollywood gets some of you fools on-board to champion black people depicted in TWO DIMENSIONS - "Black" and "Race Fighter".

And you are all buying it. Hook line and sinker.

Where the hell are the black people out there who look at this and are like "ummm, I've lived a life where I don't go on about black this and black that, and why is every single allegedly progressive thing Hollywood doing simply distill me down to nothing more than a race fighter?"

Seriously. Give that some consideration. Hollywood's very clear model is that "if we have 'black content' then it is inextricable from a 'race story". Everyone here running their mouths should think about that for a moment.

Do you know why Blade was great? They didn't need to get into that $#!(. Blade was just a cool character on his own merits who didn't need to "replace" a white man or shame the idiot-viewer who would fall for it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Seriously? THAT'S what you got out of my post?! Wow. Way to make it into EXACTLY what I was talking about. These things have ALWAYS been part of the Marvel mythos, from Captain America punching Hitler to Kamala as Ms Marvel in the age of anti-Muslim extremists. Why do you suppose it is that these stories recur so often in the MU, if not because THEY ARE RELEVANT? News flash- it is and always HAS BEEN relevant, not just to one time or era, but EVERY FRICKIN era that Marvel has had heroes to fight hatred and evil! It hasn't gone away. Probably never will. Doesn't mean they shouldn't write about it, and especially in the climate of the past decade, I'd say it's more relevant than usual.

What YOU fail to realize, is that no one is "falling" for a simple plot, it is quite literally a sign of our times that such a plot is used at all. If you look at other big stories about racism or extremism in comics, it has almost always occurred during major real world events that are polarizing on the subject, with the X-Men being introduced during one of the most turbulent times, and the same goes for more recent Marvel comics. Again, Kamala and Miles have been two of the biggest recent additions, for that very reason!

To think it's all just hype and manipulation is so very- DISINGENUOUS of you (since I KNOW how much you LOVE to throw that word around) and also very cynical and blind to the reality of the Marvel world so closely paralleling our own. But I never expected you to see that- it's a point that just seems to continuously elude you. I mean, didn't you ever wonder WHY that stuff keeps popping up when Galactus could decide at any time to chow down on Earth? It's because even in the M(C)U, people are often so full of hate and cruelty to one another that they don't even need the excuse of mutants having crazy terrifying powers. They will blow each other up over oil or religion just like we do in the real world. So yeah, racism IS a thing there, and always HAS been, even when not actively being written about. They had their Civil Rights movement too, after all....

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

What YOU fail to realize, is that no one is "falling" for a simple plot, it is quite literally a sign of our times that such a plot is used at all.

This encapsulates my point entirely. 100%.
I'm not saying that "racism doesn't exist". If you like Anthony Mackie, he made a move on Netflix recently about taking a drug and traveling through time. You should watch it. It has some dull moments, but ultimately it's worth watching.
I am never disingenuous. Ever. Probably one of the few absolutes that I would build a pyre on for personal behavior.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

But I never expected you to see that- it's a point that just seems to continuously elude you.

I know very precisely what is going on in the world and on multiple sides of the fence. I don't know your background across life, but I would argue that it's probably less experiential and less varied than mine, in real life. You are making a black and white argument - "THERE IS RACISM And and and! Marvel is FIGHTING IT and HOW DARE YOU paint a realisti... err ignorant perspective!"

What I don't expect YOU to ever understand is that your world view is probably cramped by tunnel vision and armchair "fight the good fight outrage" and by that comparison any common sense approach or narrative that actually illustrates that "racism" is NOT as widespread as personal calculus would have you believe is of course, by your calculus, ignorant, evil or whatever other emotional state helped you paint your "I never expect you to see that" nonsense.

I'm sorry you're wrong. And you're emotional about it. And you've been trained that "racism is bad and so I MUST NEVER say anything that implies that maybe racism has been weaponized and isn't as prolific as I am led to believe because ITS BAD and we CANT entertain the truth about it in it's current state!" Take a red pill, honey. Or blue or whatever it was. It's also very challenging because any other perspective then, unfortunately calls you ignorant as hell. So combine that with your own social justice broadcast and of course this is going to be exceptionally personally challenging to you.

It's simple logic that was right there in front of you on the T.V. for God's sake. "They will NEVER. Let a Black Man. BE Captain America!" and you watch it and go "awww, ohhhh" and your brain computes "OUTRAGE! We have to FIGHT THIS!". ON THE SAME SHOW where a Black man IS Captain America, not only in the fiction but then into the real world observer as well. This is a CLASSIC confirmation bias error and a manipulation so that people like YOU. SAY. Disney is "fighting the good fight!".

Racism. Is NOT. As prolific as the media or the manipulators has some of you outrage-zombies believing it is. The show that informed you there would never be a black Captain America HAS a black Captain America IN IT! From a comic printed years AGO WITH a black Captain America in IT!

And so, again, I don't expect you to see any of this. I expect you to chew this in your head a bit, internally say "$#!(" or have your f'n pride get in the way and then either to reply with your mouthy BS or to just ignore it. That's what I expect from you.