"Not that many people like Star Trek..." :o

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The fact that Trek IS more of an adult franchise is exactly WHY it's so much bigger. Kids tend to grow out of their fandoms, thus TMNT has had a couple of short-lived flashpoints

You're being unusually astute.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The fact that Trek IS more of an adult franchise is exactly WHY it's so much bigger. Kids tend to grow out of their fandoms, thus TMNT has had a couple of short-lived flashpoints, as the kids of those generations aged out of it, but Trek is perennially popular. The same people who were fans 20 or 40 years ago, are STILL fans now, casual or not. And it is much more sophisticated story and theme wise (save a few bits here and there in the comics with TMNT) which means that it can be enjoyed by MULTIPLE generations and age groups, and cna and DOES provoke serious discussions and thoughts by fans.

But it's not about who has a more hardcore or long lasting fandom. People my age and younger don't really gravitate towards Star Trek in my experience. Ninja Turtles is a far more familiar franchise because so many people across multiple generations grew up with it and it becomes nostalgic for many when they grow older, which is the exact audience BayTurtles was trying to capture and it made more money than the Star Trek reboot.

Ninja Turtles has its diehard fans that will be fans forever too, just look around. But it is a lot smaller compared to Star Trek. But the key difference is, Ninja Turtles has more mainstream appeal. Things like Star Wars and Marvel used to be things only nerds liked, but now everyone loves it and Ninja Turtles is no different. However, I don't think the same can really be said for Star Trek. Yes, it was very influential at one point in time and still a part of pop culture and fans are very passionate about it, but most people still find Star Trek lame outside of diehards, which tend to be older people who liked Star Trek way back when.

[CyberCubed]

Trekkies were the first fandom. Old enough to pre-date Star Wars. People shipped Kirk and Spock in the 60's even.

It's weird people made fun of Star Trek fans all those years for liking their franchise, simply because it wasn't considered "socially acceptable" to like TV shows that way back then. It's really weird, for years Star Trek fans were considered losers with no lives who lived in their parents basement, when in reality they were perfectly normal people who just happened to like a TV show.

I have no idea why people were so mean spirited back then. Like what's wrong with adults watching a show? So damn weird people were discriminated against for that back then. Times have changed.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Turo602

But the key difference is, Ninja Turtles has more mainstream appeal.

Not at all. TMNT has "mainstream appeal" to 5-15 year olds, at best. The rest are niche 30-40+ year old collectors and hobbyists and people like basically anyone on this forum who might comprise a... notable if not all that significant sales bottom line in collectibles/comics.

Star Trek has always had crossover appeal to children, but still captures a good portion of pretty much every other demographic. And they don't "grow out" of Star Trek. I really haven't heard of any one person who has said they were into Trek and then left it behind (at least, barring people who don't like everything since 2009... but even they -- like me -- will occasionally go back and rewatch old shows and still consider themselves "active" fans).

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not at all. TMNT has "mainstream appeal" to 5-15 year olds, at best. The rest are niche 30-40+ year old collectors and hobbyists and people like basically anyone on this forum who might comprise a... notable if not all that significant sales bottom line in collectibles/comics.

Star Trek has always had crossover appeal to children, but still captures a good portion of pretty much every other demographic. And they don't "grow out" of Star Trek. I really haven't heard of any one person who has said they were into Trek and then left it behind (at least, barring people who don't like everything since 2009... but even they -- like me -- will occasionally go back and rewatch old shows and still consider themselves "active" fans).

As I've stated before, I haven't met a single Star Trek fan my age. So I don't really believe that Star Trek has much crossover appeal with children and teens and people like myself in their mid-twenties. I'm sure young fans do exist, but they'd have to be a very small minority because it certainly skipped a generation and I doubt kids and teens are just so excited about Star Trek these days. It certainly isn't marketed towards them and you'd have to be really searching for it to get access to it, that is if it's even appealing to them in the first place.

Ninja Turtles is just far more relatable to a younger audience and it's been around for generations. The fact that Star Trek fans stay fans kind of proves my point about its limited appeal today because those fans were more than likely nerds their whole life and Star Trek was their escape. That's where the hardcore lifelong passion comes from.

Whereas Ninja Turtles doesn't just appeal strictly to nerdy kids whose fandoms "saved them." They appealed to the cool kids before they were cool, they appealed to the dropouts, the gangbanger, the nerd, and the average kid and that's exactly why it comes and goes for so many people and it's not strictly TMNT either. But superheroes, cartoons, wrestling, video games and so forth. Their priorities in life as teenagers change and it isn't until those teens reach adulthood that they're the ones buying their kids Ninja Turtle toys and taking them to the movies to watch Ninja Turtles, and not just because the kids enjoy it, like your generation's parents did, but because they enjoy it too and they're okay with it because it's far more culturally acceptable now.

Star Trek may have been a cultural phenomenon back in the day and with great reason, but it definitely isn't as big in 2021 as it was before things like Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Marvel, DC, Game of Thrones, and so on blew up and shared the same space as Star Trek and we all know superheroes and nostalgia are easily the biggest things in pop culture right now, and Ninja Turtles definitely skews more towards that than something like Star Trek.

Don't get me wrong though, this is all conjecture. I don't really know what the f*ck I'm talking about anyway and I don't think anyone can speak definitively about this, but I just don't think we're taking everything into consideration here. I feel like they're both niche franchises within their respective genres today and due to the nature of their success, aren't exactly comparable anyway. I just know that in my experience, Star Trek was never really relevant or "cool" yet Ninja Turtles is still quite popular with my demographic.

[CyberCubed]

According to your profile you're 26 years old, you're not that far off from the age gap of the second generation of Star Trek fans who grew up watching the shows in the 90's or early 2000's. You do realize Star Trek was relevant on TV through about 2005, right? That wasn't that long ago.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

According to your profile you're 26 years old, you're not that far off from the age gap of the second generation of Star Trek fans who grew up watching the shows in the 90's or early 2000's. You do realize Star Trek was relevant on TV through about 2005, right? That wasn't that long ago.

And I or anyone I know definitely wasn't watching it... Just because it exists doesn't mean it's relevant or popular with the young demographic. I heard more about Twilight than I ever have Star Trek.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You're being unusually astute.

This gave me an honest chuckle here at the screen.... heh heh oh God.

Originally Posted by Turo602

But it's not about who has a more hardcore or long lasting fandom. People my age and younger don't really gravitate towards Star Trek in my experience.

This might be true. I'm not sure how old you are, but a big part of that is all of the quality Trek at this point could have been feasible airing before a lot of kids were born at this point.

Also, the current Trek on T.V. has not exactly been aimed at regular people - Discovery turned Trek into a counter-culture show completely.

Originally Posted by Turo602

Ninja Turtles is a far more familiar franchise because so many people across multiple generations grew up with it and it becomes nostalgic for many when they grow older, which is the exact audience BayTurtles was trying to capture and it made more money than the Star Trek reboot.

This point was either completely short sighted or a total straw man point of nonsense. "Turtles is a far more familiar franchise because so many people across multiple generations grew up with it". LMAO, Star Trek has spanned at least four generations of age groups, dude.

You are definitely speaking from your own lens here. Go back and look at post #73 on page 4 of the thread where nothing more than 3rd grade-level Google-Fu alone solves this debate.

Originally Posted by Turo602

Ninja Turtles has its diehard fans that will be fans forever too, just look around. But it is a lot smaller compared to Star Trek. But the key difference is, Ninja Turtles has more mainstream appeal.

If Ninja Turtles had more mainstream appeal then why has there never been a show on prime time T.V. where mainstream audiences view as a family? Why? Because it's a cartoon that doesn't have more mainstream appeal. TMNT has appeal to a demographic in kids viewing for the most part, outside of the outliers of the long time fans that will check out each iteration to see if it grabs them.

TMNT categorically does not have more mainstream appeal than Star Trek.

Originally Posted by Turo602

Things like Star Wars and Marvel used to be things only nerds liked, but now everyone loves it and Ninja Turtles is no different. However, I don't think the same can really be said for Star Trek. Yes, it was very influential at one point in time and still a part of pop culture and fans are very passionate about it, but most people still find Star Trek lame outside of diehards, which tend to be older people who liked Star Trek way back when.

Ironically, yet of the four I.P.'s you mentioned here, the only one that can't sustain it's own convention gathering is TMNT. Your observations man, are clearly sort of biased for whatever reason. Maybe through TMNT being the franchise that you like the most, maybe your a kid and don't know any better, whatever it is, but your opinions here are largely through your own lens which even in of itself is temporally short sighted. It's not a big deal, not trying to hammer it home terribly, but most of the stuff that you've said here that might be true is being held together by perceptual connections or supported basically from limited perspective. Trek is the bigger franchise by far.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Trekkies were the first fandom. Old enough to pre-date Star Wars. People shipped Kirk and Spock in the 60's even.

Just as a point of convo... and I'm inclined to agree with you here, but.... ehhhh....maayyybbbeeee The Lone Ranger? Do you think? I'm not sure...

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by IMJ

This point was either completely short sighted or a total straw man point of nonsense. "Turtles is a far more familiar franchise because so many people across multiple generations grew up with it". LMAO, Star Trek has spanned at least four generations of age groups, dude

This was said in reference to the point about Star Trek fans mostly being older and having been fans for life. As I've said before, I don't buy the notion that Star Trek has grown at the same rate as Ninja Turtles because one has specifically targeted children across 3 generations, while the other is being sustained by its core adult audience.

Originally Posted by IMJ

You are definitely speaking from your own lens here.

As I've stated multiple times. By no means is anything I've said here a fact. This is all for argument's sake by providing my own perspective as someone who is significantly younger than most of the people on this forum. Again, this is all conjecture.

Originally Posted by IMJ

If Ninja Turtles had more mainstream appeal then why has there never been a show on prime time T.V. where mainstream audiences view as a family? Why? Because it's a cartoon that doesn't have more mainstream appeal. TMNT has appeal to a demographic in kids viewing for the most part, outside of the outliers of the long time fans that will check out each iteration to see if it grabs them.

This is pretty obvious and this goes back to my entire point about Star Trek and TMNT occupying different facets of pop culture. Star Trek's success isn't comparable to TMNT's success because they both thrive on different things based on how their respective corporations perceive each property and choose to profit off of them. Prime time television slots hardly define what's mainstream and what will be mainstream in the next 10-20 years.

Originally Posted by IMJ

Go back and look at post #73 on page 4 of the thread where nothing more than 3rd grade-level Google-Fu alone solves this debate.

You compared box office numbers, yet Ninja Turtles comes up higher than Star Trek on lists of highest grossing media franchises. The most notable list that comes up stops at the top 25 and neither were mentioned. Even their YouTube views are off by a significant margin, with TMNT related content consistently having higher view counts.

That's as far as my research will go because numbers never tell you the full story anyway and I'm by no means trying to downplay nor magnify either franchise here because they're simply not comparable. I just feel like you guys are severely discrediting Ninja Turtles for being a "kid's" property while completely overblowing just how massive Star Trek really is in 2021 just because that was the case once upon a time and some nerds are like extremely passionate about it.

[IMJ]

Some of what you've said immediately above - yeah sure..... I can see some of that. But in the end, even diminished in 2021 (and no argument there about that at all - Trek is diminished right now) Star Trek is still the bigger franchise. The observation you made about YouTube views for the I.P.'s definitely adds an interesting component of viewership there - but I think that speaks to generational consumption habits more than "which is the bigger I.P.".

I think ultimately I understand what you are saying - but if the question was "which is the bigger I.P., TMNT or Star Trek", hands down it's Star Trek. Hand's down. Now if the question was "which is the bigger I.P. of the last two years, TMNT or Star Trek?". Ehhh... I don't know. Much tougher comparison, but probably still Trek.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Turo602

But it's not about who has a more hardcore or long lasting fandom. People my age and younger don't really gravitate towards Star Trek in my experience. Ninja Turtles is a far more familiar franchise because so many people across multiple generations grew up with it and it becomes nostalgic for many when they grow older, which is the exact audience BayTurtles was trying to capture and it made more money than the Star Trek reboot.

Ninja Turtles has its diehard fans that will be fans forever too, just look around. But it is a lot smaller compared to Star Trek. But the key difference is, Ninja Turtles has more mainstream appeal. Things like Star Wars and Marvel used to be things only nerds liked, but now everyone loves it and Ninja Turtles is no different. However, I don't think the same can really be said for Star Trek. Yes, it was very influential at one point in time and still a part of pop culture and fans are very passionate about it, but most people still find Star Trek lame outside of diehards, which tend to be older people who liked Star Trek way back when.

Here's the thing, you keep saying in YOUR experience, circle, etc. Which just means you either DO know some Trek fans, who simply haven't felt the need or desire to discuss it with you, or you haven't looked very hard to find any in your area, or your circle and experience are very limited in scope. I grew up in Texas, where nerdy stuff has always had a stigma, particularly Trek, but I could easily ask 50 people tomorrow if they know of it or have watched it, and would get a large percentage of yesses. I doubt I would get as many for TMNT. It WAS popular and well-known for a few years, but it hasn't been as "relevant" as Trek culturally since the mid 90s. Whereas Trek has REMAINED culturally relevant for decades. Not just for a year or two, or in tiny spurts of cash-milking a movie.

You keep bringing up the movie sales, but the thing there is it was for ONE movie (two maybe but the sequel was a box office bomb by today's standards) and the "classic" Trek movies, would be just as huge today if they were released now, based on fan popularity. TMNT is hardly mainstream- even when it was at its peak it was still mostly a niche kiddy franchise. And it's even more so now, because most kids who were fans have more or less forgotten about it beyond a vague memory of having liked it. How many casual fans of TMNT will even remember the Turtles' names correctly? Or what color each wears? Trek on the other hand has FAR more casual fans, regardless of how much ONE movie might make.

And if you want to talk about influence, Teek has done more to inspire and influence our modern technology and culture than ANY other franchise. Ipads? Trek introduced them in the 60's as datapads. Sci-fi transmat devices? Trek did it first with the teleporter. There was a contest by NASA to name one of the early space shuttles, and the winning name? Enterprise, hands down. Holographic projection technology? Yup, Trek was at the dawn of that, too. Many medical concepts were first created for it, too. And as mentioned, Star Trek has an entire exhibit for it in the National Air and Space Museum in the Smithsonian. Turtles? Nope, nowhere near that kind of influence.

[CyberCubed]

Yep, we also have warp drive and teleporters in real life now too and that was started by Star Trek.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Yep, we also have warp drive and teleporters in real life now too and that was started by Star Trek.

I am experiencing that sort of internet bro love for you right now that is less akin to friendship and more akin to Stockholm Syndrome.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Here's the thing, you keep saying in YOUR experience, circle, etc. Which just means you either DO know some Trek fans, who simply haven't felt the need or desire to discuss it with you, or you haven't looked very hard to find any in your area, or your circle and experience are very limited in scope. I grew up in Texas, where nerdy stuff has always had a stigma, particularly Trek, but I could easily ask 50 people tomorrow if they know of it or have watched it, and would get a large percentage of yesses. I doubt I would get as many for TMNT. It WAS popular and well-known for a few years, but it hasn't been as "relevant" as Trek culturally since the mid 90s. Whereas Trek has REMAINED culturally relevant for decades. Not just for a year or two, or in tiny spurts of cash-milking a movie.

You keep bringing up the movie sales, but the thing there is it was for ONE movie (two maybe but the sequel was a box office bomb by today's standards) and the "classic" Trek movies, would be just as huge today if they were released now, based on fan popularity. TMNT is hardly mainstream- even when it was at its peak it was still mostly a niche kiddy franchise. And it's even more so now, because most kids who were fans have more or less forgotten about it beyond a vague memory of having liked it. How many casual fans of TMNT will even remember the Turtles' names correctly? Or what color each wears? Trek on the other hand has FAR more casual fans, regardless of how much ONE movie might make.

And if you want to talk about influence, Teek has done more to inspire and influence our modern technology and culture than ANY other franchise. Ipads? Trek introduced them in the 60's as datapads. Sci-fi transmat devices? Trek did it first with the teleporter. There was a contest by NASA to name one of the early space shuttles, and the winning name? Enterprise, hands down. Holographic projection technology? Yup, Trek was at the dawn of that, too. Many medical concepts were first created for it, too. And as mentioned, Star Trek has an entire exhibit for it in the National Air and Space Museum in the Smithsonian. Turtles? Nope, nowhere near that kind of influence.

My experiences may be limited in scope, but I'm pretty sure I have a way better idea of what kids and teenagers were into in the 2000s than you do and Star Trek wasn't it. I mean seriously, you think anyone gives a crap about what's in the Smithsonian? You think this Tik Tok generation cares about what influence something they don't like had on the world before they were even in it? Influence doesn't equate to popularity.

These are both cultural phenomenons and everyone knows of their existence. There's no need to pretend Ninja Turtles is smaller than it really is just to make Star Trek look better. It's still huge and easily recognizable to anyone born anytime during and after the 80s. I'm sure parents from your generation know damn well what Ninja Turtles is too, especially if they were like my mom and had to live through it 3 times.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Turo602

My experiences may be limited in scope, but I'm pretty sure I have a way better idea of what kids and teenagers were into in the 2000s than you do and Star Trek wasn't it. I mean seriously, you think anyone gives a crap about what's in the Smithsonian? You think this Tik Tok generation cares about what influence something they don't like had on the world before they were even in it? Influence doesn't equate to popularity.

These are both cultural phenomenons and everyone knows of their existence. There's no need to pretend Ninja Turtles is smaller than it really is just to make Star Trek look better. It's still huge and easily recognizable to anyone born anytime during and after the 80s. I'm sure parents from your generation know damn well what Ninja Turtles is too, especially if they were like my mom and had to live through it 3 times.

Maybe in your area or circle. Thing is, if YOU weren't into it, would you have ever bothered finding out if others you knew were? Doubt it. Just because you weren't into it at that age doesn't mean others weren't. Heck I spent the early 2000's helping raise my three cousins (ages from 8 to 13 at the start, for three and a half years) and guess what? They cared more about The Simpsons and yes, Star Trek than they did about Ninja Turtles. In fact, it was barely even on their radar. Turtles were hardly as "big" in the 2000's as you seem to think. It was not the same "cultural phenomenon " then as it was in the early 90s, no matter how much you want to believe it was. It was barely even on anyone's radar unless they were already fans. Even kids didn't seem to be as into it.

Star Trek, on the other hand, was still huge, due to having just had FOUR series in the past decade, all either concurrent or in quick succession, which were still being shown in syndication, all before the era of YouTube videos and streaming services. TMNT had, in that time, ONE series that was barely even known outside of devout fans, because Saturday cartoons were on the way out and fewer kids were even watching them. And the 03 series was barely publicized. I didn't even see any of it (while having been raising three boys) until the later seasons! So where was the popularity? Not among those kids you claim were so familiar with it in that time. At least not the kids I was raising or their friends. But those boys darn well knew Star Trek, and watched it! So your assumption that you know the kids of the time better than me is just that, an assumption. I was surrounded by them 24-7. And they WEREN'T watching TMNT, it was Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Simpsons. And ST in the evenings. Pretty sure that was true across the board. (Maybe not as many watching ST, but more aware of it than of TMNT, due to syndicated episodes airing frequently. And their parents probably watched it, so they'd have been fairly familiar with it. )

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Maybe in your area or circle. Thing is, if YOU weren't into it, would you have ever bothered finding out if others you knew were? Doubt it. Just because you weren't into it at that age doesn't mean others weren't. Heck I spent the early 2000's helping raise my three cousins (ages from 8 to 13 at the start, for three and a half years) and guess what? They cared more about The Simpsons and yes, Star Trek than they did about Ninja Turtles. In fact, it was barely even on their radar. Turtles were hardly as "big" in the 2000's as you seem to think. It was not the same "cultural phenomenon " then as it was in the early 90s, no matter how much you want to believe it was. It was barely even on anyone's radar unless they were already fans. Even kids didn't seem to be as into it.

Star Trek, on the other hand, was still huge, due to having just had FOUR series in the past decade, all either concurrent or in quick succession, which were still being shown in syndication, all before the era of YouTube videos and streaming services. TMNT had, in that time, ONE series that was barely even known outside of devout fans, because Saturday cartoons were on the way out and fewer kids were even watching them. And the 03 series was barely publicized. I didn't even see any of it (while having been raising three boys) until the later seasons! So where was the popularity? Not among those kids you claim were so familiar with it in that time. At least not the kids I was raising or their friends. But those boys darn well knew Star Trek, and watched it! So your assumption that you know the kids of the time better than me is just that, an assumption. I was surrounded by them 24-7. And they WEREN'T watching TMNT, it was Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Simpsons. And ST in the evenings. Pretty sure that was true across the board. (Maybe not as many watching ST, but more aware of it than of TMNT, due to syndicated episodes airing frequently. And their parents probably watched it, so they'd have been fairly familiar with it. )

I'm sorry, but this is a laughable comparison. You raising 3 kids and influencing them is hardly the same as someone who grew up in that era and spent the majority of their time surrounded by and interacting with other kids. Hell, I have 2 nieces and 1 nephew born within the last decade and you bet your ass I made sure they know TMNT. Star Trek on the other hand? They don't even know it exists.

And I never claimed TMNT was as big as a phenomenon as it once was, not even Star Trek is, but it was still well known. There's this thing called older siblings that people have, and guess what, they lived the Turtle craze and their younger siblings shared some of that experience. You're crazy to think Ninja Turtles just got wiped from public consciousness after the 90s like if kids in the 2000s were completely braindead of the last decade.

Also, whether I'm into something or not has absolutely nothing to do with others bringing it up like they did countless other things. There's lots of stuff I'm not into that I had to hear about either directly or indirectly like anime, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Twilight, Call of Duty, skating, sh*t music, and so on. I'm more familiar with what was popular and what wasn't and what was culturally relevant with young people in the 2000s, and it wasn't Star Trek. Ninja Turtles has honestly come up way more often and from unexpected sources than Star Trek ever did, which was zero.

The only person who ever brought up Star Trek was this old professor in college who had made a reference to Klingons in an effort to relate with the classroom, and got nothing but awkward silence and confusion from everyone and that was way more recently and the people in that classroom were significantly younger than me.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You assume I was influencing what they watched- nope. They already HAD their own likes and preferences, and TMNT wasn't one of them, as they barely knew it existed, in spite of there being a cartoon. We ALL watched ST though, and they liked it! Also, explain how RAISING three kids aged 7-13 (and one 4 year old who was a part-time custody addition) isn't being surrounded by and interacting with kids? I just said that I was doing just that, and what their interests were, ie, Pokemon, YU-GI-OH, Simpsons, and Star Wars (with ST as an evening tv show they liked.) Neither they nor I had any real awareness of TMNT even being "popular" at the time. Even with a cartoon on Saturdays. They just- weren't really into it, or watching it. And apparently neither were any of their friends, given that they never even mentioned it. These were kids I was LIVING WITH, seeing 24-7 except for when they were at school. And I went on school outings with them (as chaperone), to Boy Scout meets and events with them, and karate classes, game tournaments (Pokemon and YU-GI-OH, again) and never once heard ANYONE at those places talk about liking TMNT! Yet somehow it was "bigger"?. The funny thing is, they were of an age range that SHOULD have been heavily into TMNT if your own experience was accurate as a measure, but they weren't. Not even the 4 yr old.

Look, I know YOU were more into it and aware of it than of ST in that time, but what I'm trying to illustrate here is that, for MOST, that simply wasn't as big or as popular as you remember it being, due to fewer kids even watching cartoons as they were being phased out at the time. Unless it was Simpsons or Pokemon or YU-GI-OH, they didn't even care about cartoons. And Power Rangers. Almost forgot that one, but I just remembered being forced to sit through that gods-aweful movie over and over again. As well as EVERY EPISODE of The Simpsons REPEATEDLY. So, no, I didn't influence their preference for one over the other, we just all like to watch ST in the evenings. They loved TNG, but got bored by the political aspects of DS9, and Liked Neelix and Tuvok on Voyager, as well as the Borg kids. I had nothing to do with that, they just liked the characters and the ships and stuff. Just like they did with Star Wars. We even played a Star Wars board game!

I get that you loved TMNT in the 200s, a lot of us probably would have, if we'd even had much exposure to it, but with ONE cartoon that was barely even advertised as existing, it simply wasn't as big as you remember it being, even if you had friends into it, too. It was just- not the cultural phenomenon then that it was in the early 90s- and I WAS part of THAT generation! It was HUGE then, with TMNT visible everywhere you looked. Backpacks, lunch boxes, clothes, toys, posters, even foods in the grocery aisle. But in 2003-2007? Barely anything. A few toys and t-shirts of the "old-school" TMNT, maybe a few of the Popsicles still around, but that was it. Not much else, and the cartoon was barely a blip on the cultural radar. Even the 07 movie didn't really leave a big mark. Not like the originals. I'm not making TMNT "smaller", I'm just saying you are making it out to be much bigger back then than it actually was. Because you were a fan, while most really weren't. Even me, and I WAS a huge fan of the originals!

As for others, how do you know they WEREN'T into it? Trek has always had a stigma as a "nerd" fandom, especially before the advent of "nerd culture" made it more acceptable to like things like that. Most people of ANY age would have been less likely to admit they enjoyed it, because it would have invited ridicule and scorn. So they probably would not have mentioned it in groups even if they DID like it. But sure, you can say it wasn't popular with kids and teens, but you have no real proof of that beyond a personal circle of experience. And how many of those SAME kids and teens are fans of it NOW? probably a lot more than you might think. At least if one looks at comments from people of that age on YouTube.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

You assume I was influencing what they watched- nope. They already HAD their own likes and preferences, and TMNT wasn't one of them, as they barely knew it existed, in spite of there being a cartoon. We ALL watched ST though, and they liked it! Also, explain how RAISING three kids aged 7-13 (and one 4 year old who was a part-time custody addition) isn't being surrounded by and interacting with kids? I just said that I was doing just that, and what their interests were, ie, Pokemon, YU-GI-OH, Simpsons, and Star Wars (with ST as an evening tv show they liked.) Neither they nor I had any real awareness of TMNT even being "popular" at the time. Even with a cartoon on Saturdays. They just- weren't really into it, or watching it. And apparently neither were any of their friends, given that they never even mentioned it. These were kids I was LIVING WITH, seeing 24-7 except for when they were at school. And I went on school outings with them (as chaperone), to Boy Scout meets and events with them, and karate classes, game tournaments (Pokemon and YU-GI-OH, again) and never once heard ANYONE at those places talk about liking TMNT! Yet somehow it was "bigger"?. The funny thing is, they were of an age range that SHOULD have been heavily into TMNT if your own experience was accurate as a measure, but they weren't. Not even the 4 yr old.

Again, living with a couple kids doesn't make your experience anywhere near as authentic or as relevant than mine no matter how epic or big you try to make it sound.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

As for others, how do you know they WEREN'T into it? Trek has always had a stigma as a "nerd" fandom, especially before the advent of "nerd culture" made it more acceptable to like things like that. Most people of ANY age would have been less likely to admit they enjoyed it, because it would have invited ridicule and scorn. So they probably would not have mentioned it in groups even if they DID like it. But sure, you can say it wasn't popular with kids and teens, but you have no real proof of that beyond a personal circle of experience. And how many of those SAME kids and teens are fans of it NOW? probably a lot more than you might think. At least if one looks at comments from people of that age on YouTube.

This further proves just how out of touch you are with my generation despite chaperoning some kids. We definitely had our stigmas, but nerd culture was very acceptable and most of those stigmas wore off by the time I was in high school. You're seriously in denial here. Get over it. You don't know what it was like growing up in the 2000s.

Anyway, I've elaborated on my side in this thread already. I don't know what your point is exactly other than shouting things at me like they're suddenly true. I don't care to debate which is bigger and it's honestly f*cking pointless.

[CyberCubed]

To be honest I remember people still making fun of anime fans in the early 2000's, from like 2000-2008 or so. Stuff like Dragonball Z, etc. was mainstream but if you liked any other anime at the time you were looked down upon as an anime nerd or anime weeabo.

[Andrew NDB]

"Ben Sisko's non-linear, non-binary arc in Deep Space Nine's 'Emissary' saved all my lives":

https://www.tor.com/2023/02/28/ben-s...TCvNlidFGZQoKQ