"It sells less and less every month" - Page 3

*Coola Yagami* · 03-17-2022, 06:21 PM

To add to Leo's post, my high school was 50/50 black kids and hispanic kids. Literally only one white dude I ever seen in the entire school (which makes me wonder, now looking back as an adult, if he ever faced any sort of racism or whatever). My black friends LOVED the X-Men, but like most, it was all about how awesome Wolverine, Magneto and Juggernaut were. Not a peep about Bishop, maybe Storm to comment on how they'd **** her, but I mean, they'd also **** Rogue and Jean too.

Now one character that resonated with some of my friends was Spawn. He was black, but that was never a factor. The fact that he's 'blacker than blackity black 'yall' was never even brought up. The fact that he was a hellspawn and literally tearing Violater limb from limb in ultaviolent 90's fashion was what they were talking about. They let me borrow the book and read it and whatnot, but never, not once did I hear 'it's a bout time a black hero made it'.

Back then my buddies were concerned with the recent death of Jason Todd, the Death of Superman, Spawn being ultra-violent and the new X-Men cartoon. Race was never ever brought up. And these guys were super straight up comic fans. Despite being black, I know they'd bitch to hell and back if the cartoon made Wolverine black or something.

And FYI. Nobody liked gay Iceman. Nobody. Gays included. The entire series of his was literally 'omg he's so gaaaaay you guys, and on grinder, and his parents just don't understaaaaaand'. Like... you know he's a superhero right? They crammed Juggernaut in the last issue or so cause they suddenly remembered he's a Marvel character that should be fighting Marvel bad guys. And they also forget that Marvel world is not the real world. The parents accepted him as a mutant, who cares if he's gay???? Like I think they'd actually prefer he was gay than if he was a mutant. Come on now.

*Andrew NDB* · 03-17-2022, 06:38 PM

Or look at something like Star Wars. We should rejoice about diversity and LGBTQ stuff in it? It isn't even our galaxy... there isn't even an Earth there! They don't have an Asia or Africa or anything. And diversity... good god, it has tons of ALIENS as good guys. How is that not as diverse as you can get?

*CyberCubed* · 03-17-2022, 06:42 PM

I don't even understand why blacks and Asians exist in Star Wars. It's one of the reasons I wasn't sure if Lando was really black when I watched the original movies for the first time. I mean you could tell he was not white, but I thought it was weird since technically he's an alien. Also besides some background characters I suppose, I don't recall seeing too many black people in the original movies.

All the Empire characters were British or German.

*neatoman* · 03-17-2022, 07:00 PM

OK, Cubed, I'm just going to ignore most of what you said but still respond. Partially because it's awkward to respond to in the first place, but mostly because there an interesting tangent here.

Aren't all the "human" characters actually some kind of alien species? If it's a "long time ago in a galaxy far away", they can't really be the same species as us. And if that's the case, are we dealing with one species of "humans" or are we actually talking about several species that just happen to look like humans? In one of Star Wars' primary inspirational sources, Flash Gordon, the inhabitants of Planet Mongo look just like humans but clearly can't be. Then we obviously have things like the DCU and Star Trek where countless aliens just look like human beings for some reason. Is that's what's going on here? Convergent evolution?

~~Leo656~~ · 03-17-2022, 07:19 PM

Coola: Dude NONE of the kids in my grade who were into pop culture stuff made preferences based on race or gender or who looked the most like them. ZERO. Which is why it blows my mind nowadays when people swear "People only want or can relate to characters who are Exactly Like Them". I'm like, since WHEN? That was 100% NOT the case back in my day.

My first "girlfriend" was a girl I met on the first day of Kindergarten; I fell in love when I saw she brought her Real Ghostbusters action figures for Show & Tell. We'd play "Ghostbusters" all the time, and she never wanted to be Janine, her favorite was Egon. Even when they kind of made Janine the "5th Ghostbuster" from time to time in the cartoon and gave her an action figure in full gear, Egon was still her favorite. She didn't care if there were any girl Ghostbusters.

Or like, my closest friend from like 7th Grade until he had kids and moved away and we lost touch about 15 years ago was black (we do still talk on FB, we just haven't seen each other in years); we lived together off and on for a number of years, whenever one of us was in a spot or if he just needed a break from his family or whatever. Absolute "brothers from different mothers" and he even named his son after me, which I think is crazy but it goes to show how tight we've always been. Anyways, he liked Blade and stuff but he also loved Batman and Superman and stuff like that, and one of his favorite movies was "The Big Lebowski"; every time he came over, he made sure I had Austin Powers and Big Lebowski set up and we'd sometimes watch 'em twice. He'd make me rewind parts and play them back over and over and he'd be literally rolling on the floor laughing his ass off. He was a fun guy.

But anyways, point being, he wasn't ONLY attracted to "black things". Like, when we used to play-wrestle at his house (kinda like "backyard wrestling" except it was in his screenhouse) and we'd all pick characters, he looked almost exactly like Booker T but he always wanted to be Vader.

Legit, one time one of the kids was like "Wouldn't you rather be Booker T?" and he's like, "What, cuz I'm BLACK? I can't be Vader cuz I'm black? I ain't 400 pounds either, n***a, but watch me power bomb your ass, let's see who's talkin' sh*t."

Like he wasn't actually mad he was just making a point. Also, in case I didn't make it clear, I f*cking love this guy to death with all my heart.

But anyways, yeah, he was rather savvy. Sometimes we'd be watching a movie or a show or whatever, and he'd be like, "I get the feeling sometimes these people feel like, I'unno, like because I'm black I'm 'supposed' to like this character/thing/etc. just because of that. Do they think we're all the same, or black people only like 'black things'? Cuz we're not like that." He would sometimes seem pretty annoyed by it. Like I said, black-centric content was always "appreciated" but it wasn't ALL he liked or was interested in, and he saw a lot of stuff as straight-up pandering which he didn't enjoy. So I sometimes look at stuff "through his eyes" in a sense.

I guess times and sensibilities have changed or shifted or whatever. But "back in my day", if you could only "relate" to a show, movie, character, or comic book because "your people" were all over it, you were a closed-minded person. And as I've said many times, "inclusion for the hell of it" didn't win points back then, it had to feel organic and sincere and not like someone was just checking a box. None of my black/female/gay/etc. friends back then especially enjoyed it when they were overtly being pandered to; I guess nowadays so long as you can "see yourself" reflected that's all that matters. But to me, that suggests that standards have fallen rather than risen.

BUT, once again to the thread topic... I sincerely don't think anyone specifically hates the IDW run for its "inclusion" themes. I truly believe they hate it because it no longer feels like TMNT to them in any of the ways that matter by their own personal criteria. To be fair, if ANY long-running book or franchise that was mostly known as an action/comedy type of thing suddenly and abruptly shifted into a straight drama/"slice of life" thing with very little action, for the first time in its history on top of that... I really don't think anything could undergo such a transition without heavy, serious backlash. I don't think it specifically has anything to do with TMNT, or even the specifics of the tonal/content shift. If it were the reverse, like if say Liberty Meadows for example suddenly had become an action strip, I think people would have sh*t on that, too.

~~mrmaczaps~~ · 03-17-2022, 07:27 PM

I'm white but Kyle Rayner GL is Asian/Mexican (if memory serves) and he was always my fav (still is) Green Lantern [course he was also the only one in those days] but I also loved it when John Stewart & Guy showed up. Kilowog is probs my fav alien GL. And then Kyle had an assistant (or something) that was gay, got jumped & that story made headlines, but it was organic not forced. Never needed a character to be the same skin color as long as their character (lol) was aligned more or less with Truth & Justice & doing the Right thing because its The Right Thing... as it should be.

*Coola Yagami* · 03-17-2022, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Coola: Dude NONE of the kids in my grade who were into pop culture stuff made preferences based on race or gender or who looked the most like them. ZERO. Which is why it blows my mind nowadays when people swear "People only want or can relate to characters who are Exactly Like Them". I'm like, since WHEN? That was 100% NOT the case back in my day.

My first "girlfriend" was a girl I met on the first day of Kindergarten; I fell in love when I saw she brought her Real Ghostbusters action figures for Show & Tell. We'd play "Ghostbusters" all the time, and she never wanted to be Janine, her favorite was Egon. Even when they kind of made Janine the "5th Ghostbuster" from time to time in the cartoon and gave her an action figure in full gear, Egon was still her favorite. She didn't care if there were any girl Ghostbusters.

Or like, my closest friend from like 7th Grade until he had kids and moved away and we lost touch about 15 years ago was black (we do still talk on FB, we just haven't seen each other in years); we lived together off and on for a number of years, whenever one of us was in a spot or if he just needed a break from his family or whatever. Absolute "brothers from different mothers" and he even named his son after me, which I think is crazy but it goes to show how tight we've always been. Anyways, he liked Blade and stuff but he also loved Batman and Superman and stuff like that, and one of his favorite movies was "The Big Lebowski"; every time he came over, he made sure I had Austin Powers and Big Lebowski set up and we'd sometimes watch 'em twice. He'd make me rewind parts and play them back over and over and he'd be literally rolling on the floor laughing his ass off. He was a fun guy.

But anyways, point being, he wasn't ONLY attracted to "black things". Like, when we used to play-wrestle at his house (kinda like "backyard wrestling" except it was in his screenhouse) and we'd all pick characters, he looked almost exactly like Booker T but he always wanted to be Vader.

Legit, one time one of the kids was like "Wouldn't you rather be Booker T?" and he's like, "What, cuz I'm BLACK? I can't be Vader cuz I'm black? I ain't 400 pounds either, n***a, but watch me power bomb your ass, let's see who's talkin' sh*t."

Like he wasn't actually mad he was just making a point. Also, in case I didn't make it clear, I f*cking love this guy to death with all my heart.

But anyways, yeah, he was rather savvy. Sometimes we'd be watching a movie or a show or whatever, and he'd be like, "I get the feeling sometimes these people feel like, I'unno, like because I'm black I'm 'supposed' to like this character/thing/etc. just because of that. Do they think we're all the same, or black people only like 'black things'? Cuz we're not like that." He would sometimes seem pretty annoyed by it. Like I said, black-centric content was always "appreciated" but it wasn't ALL he liked or was interested in, and he saw a lot of stuff as straight-up pandering which he didn't enjoy. So I sometimes look at stuff "through his eyes" in a sense.

I guess times and sensibilities have changed or shifted or whatever. But "back in my day", if you could only "relate" to a show, movie, character, or comic book because "your people" were all over it, you were a closed-minded person. And as I've said many times, "inclusion for the hell of it" didn't win points back then, it had to feel organic and sincere and not like someone was just checking a box. None of my black/female/gay/etc. friends back then especially enjoyed it when they were overtly being pandered to; I guess nowadays so long as you can "see yourself" reflected that's all that matters. But to me, that suggests that standards have fallen rather than risen.

BUT, once again to the thread topic... I sincerely don't think anyone specifically hates the IDW run for its "inclusion" themes. I truly believe they hate it because it no longer feels like TMNT to them in any of the ways that matter by their own personal criteria. To be fair, if ANY long-running book or franchise that was mostly known as an action/comedy type of thing suddenly and abruptly shifted into a straight drama/"slice of life" thing with very little action, for the first time in its history on top of that... I really don't think anything could undergo such a transition without heavy, serious backlash. I don't think it specifically has anything to do with TMNT, or even the specifics of the tonal/content shift. If it were the reverse, like if say Liberty Meadows for example suddenly had become an action strip, I think people would have sh*t on that, too.

What I hate the most, is the revisionist history that comes with it. Let's say (and let's hope not but it is what it is) sales drop so low the book is cancelled mid mutant town arc. Years from now when people start making IDW TMNT retrospectives, similar to how people make Archie Sonic retrospective nowadays, when we get to the downfall, they're not gonna say because it became a long, drawn out slice of life snoozefest with barely any action, the Turtles themselves are barely in it and it barely felt like TMNT anymore'. No they'll say it was cancelled because the right-wing comicgaters didn't like the diversity and were transphobic towards the writer.

I swear, the only reason Bebop and Rocksteady left that concert without a fight was cause someone gave the the memo that if they beat up on a bunch of gay furries, they'd get cancelled to hell and back and would never be used in any form of TMNT media ever again.

And before you say anything Andrew (I can already hear you saying ' and what's wrong with that?), I still think they're cool and fun characters.

~~Leo656~~ · 03-17-2022, 07:46 PM

Like, okay, true story, I only skim pages of this stuff online and read about the broad strokes. I don't know the intricate details. Even from the beginning IDW TMNT has never really hooked me. So to be fair, I jumped off way, way before the current "troubled times".

But in what I do know of that whole "Battle of the Bands" arc... spending a ton of time building up to and around that concept, and then at the last minute yanking the rug out and not delivering on what was all but promised, that's just plain poor storytelling and jerking around your audience.

Without having read a lot of the material A-to-Z, I suspect there's some underlying message in a lot of Campbell's run about "not all conflicts needing to be resolved with violence", or something to that effect - and again, I can't honestly say, it's just something I kind of infer from the little bit I've seen and heard about - but I mean, violence is sort of implicit with this franchise and these characters and I think it's something people actually want to see more of, not less. So however "noble" it might be it's the wrong approach for this brand.

But again, I've read "about" all of it more than I've actually read. So... I'unno.

*Coola Yagami* · 03-17-2022, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Like, okay, true story, I only skim pages of this stuff online and read about the broad strokes. I don't know the intricate details. Even from the beginning IDW TMNT has never really hooked me. So to be fair, I jumped off way, way before the current "troubled times".

But in what I do know of that whole "Battle of the Bands" arc... spending a ton of time building up to and around that concept, and then at the last minute yanking the rug out and not delivering on what was all but promised, that's just plain poor storytelling and jerking around your audience.

Without having read a lot of the material A-to-Z, I suspect there's some underlying message in a lot of Campbell's run about "not all conflicts needing to be resolved with violence", or something to that effect - and again, I can't honestly say, it's just something I kind of infer from the little bit I've seen and heard about - but I mean, violence is sort of implicit with this franchise and these characters and I think it's something people actually want to see more of, not less. So however "noble" it might be it's the wrong approach for this brand.

But again, I've read "about" all of it more than I've actually read. So... I'unno.

Yeah, but that works with certain characters. For example, someone like Karai can be reasoned with because deep down she still has some code of honor. Worded properly, talking her out a fight would make sense. But Bebop and Rocksteady??? These bloodthirsty trouble-making meatheads? The moment they lost the contest they woulda been like '**** this, let's **** **** UP'.

I think the only reason they didn't is because there would have been no way to have them fight without Bebop and Rocksteady flat out wiping out the mutant town population. Especially without the Turtles being there, who are still outmatched but still have the experience of dealing with them on several occasions.

red1981 · 03-17-2022, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Yeah, but that works with certain characters. For example, someone like Karai can be reasoned with because deep down she still has some code of honor. Worded properly, talking her out a fight would make sense. But Bebop and Rocksteady??? These bloodthirsty trouble-making meatheads? The moment they lost the contest they woulda been like '**** this, let's **** **** UP'.

I think the only reason they didn't is because there would have been no way to have them fight without Bebop and Rocksteady flat out wiping out the mutant town population. Especially without the Turtles being there, who are still outmatched but still have the experience of dealing with them on several occasions.

the problem i see is they made bebop and rocksteady way to strong, and any issue they are in there really not in any physical danger

*Coola Yagami* · 03-17-2022, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red1981

the problem i see is they made bebop and rocksteady way to strong, and any issue they are in there really not in any physical danger

That's not their problem. That's the hero's problem. That's why we pay for comics, to see how they deal with such problems.

Bahamut810 · 03-17-2022, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Yeah, but that works with certain characters. For example, someone like Karai can be reasoned with because deep down she still has some code of honor. Worded properly, talking her out a fight would make sense. But Bebop and Rocksteady??? These bloodthirsty trouble-making meatheads? The moment they lost the contest they woulda been like '**** this, let's **** **** UP'.

This was one of the things that pissed me off the most. Not just the build up to a let down, but just how out of character they were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I think the only reason they didn't is because there would have been no way to have them fight without Bebop and Rocksteady flat out wiping out the mutant town population. Especially without the Turtles being there, who are still outmatched but still have the experience of dealing with them on several occasions.

It would have been a thing, and they probably would have had people get hurt but I could see a comic where Jennika and her new band were trying to clear the path as R&B came through and they just kept trying to frustrate them into quitting. They are much more prone to "I just cant hit these people!" and stomping off to destroy things elsewhere or tricking them into fighting each other then they are to just quit.

~~ChosenOne~~ · 03-18-2022, 09:36 AM

Need an easy out for the battle of the bands erupting into a brawl without letting Bebop and Rocksteady massacre everyone? Just have Karai show up at the club. There. Not hard at all. If only someone were being paid to think about this stuff...

hypered1 · 03-18-2022, 10:43 AM

Just got the numbers in for #125 - 23,841 units sold. Granted that's down a couple of thousand from #124 which did 27,621, but it's still above the series usual average.

*Andrew NDB* · 03-18-2022, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmaczaps

I'm white but Kyle Rayner GL is Asian/Mexican (if memory serves) and he was always my fav (still is) Green Lantern

Mine as well. Certainly no Asian in him (unless something in the past 4 years changed that), he has a Mexican father. And it's funny... the people writing him during the Geoff Johns regime kept doing "Kyle meets his father" for the first time over and over again even after he met his dad during the Marz stuff because the editors were no longer editing/scared of Geoff and no one could be bothered to read a Wiki. So there'd be all these different dads.

And as someone who is Hispanic, what did it mean to me to find out they suddenly made Kyle half Hispanic? Annoyed, honestly. It just felt like tokenism, even then. And it wasn't like the creator of Kyle Rayner was decades removed from things or dead at the time... Ron Marz was right over there, usually writing angry tweets. We could ask him if Kyle is Mexican and the answer would be no.

~~mrmaczaps~~ · 03-18-2022, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Mine as well. Certainly no Asian in him (unless something in the past 4 years changed that), he has a Mexican father. And it's funny... the people writing him during the Geoff Johns regime kept doing "Kyle meets his father" for the first time over and over again even after he met his dad during the Marz stuff because the editors were no longer editing/scared of Geoff and no one could be bothered to read a Wiki. So there'd be all these different dads.

And as someone who is Hispanic, what did it mean to me to find out they suddenly made Kyle half Hispanic? Annoyed, honestly. It just felt like tokenism, even then. And it wasn't like the creator of Kyle Rayner was decades removed from things or dead at the time... Ron Marz was right over there, usually writing angry tweets. We could ask him if Kyle is Mexican and the answer would be no.

My bad. I thought somewhere that his dad was half Mexican/Asian. Point still stands that he wasn't portrayed as a straight up white dude... His solo series explored naturally a whole bunch of social issues and it was not IN YOUR FACE like stories are now...

*MikeandRaph87* · 03-18-2022, 03:03 PM

It's like how making Selina Kyle the younger daughter of Carmine Falcone makes her mixed but played by a black actress therefore negating the diversity gimmick. I state that because you the viewer are lead to believe she is Black because the actress is. Same thing with Liz Allen in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Also, how the bloody heck is this book selling 23k? I meanbwhrn it was it's peak quality it was selling 12k or so. So many of us dropped it. There are not nearly as many Furry supporters than loyal TMNT readers. Even from additional samplers from those who picked up The Last Ronin.

*Andrew NDB* · 03-18-2022, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmaczaps

My bad. I thought somewhere that his dad was half Mexican/Asian. Point still stands that he wasn't portrayed as a straight up white dude... His solo series explored naturally a whole bunch of social issues and it was not IN YOUR FACE like stories are now...

Yeah, the Judd Winnick stuff. Even then, he was trying to honor Pedro. But yeah, that stuff seemed to bother some GL fans but it didn't really bother me. The guy was still a really great writer who could bring it when it counted. If he did social commentary it was because he did good stories and had extra room for that stuff. Nowadays they only do the social commentary stuff and don't bother with a good story.

~~Leo656~~ · 03-18-2022, 05:38 PM

My only real problem with Judd Winick is that he made them bring Jason Todd back from the dead and 15 years later he was still more useful as "Batman's Greatest Failure" than anything he's ever done in-story since he came back to life.

Don't let him near Spider-Man, he'd probably bring back Uncle Ben just so Peter didn't have to be sad anymore.

I kid, I kid. Judd's alright. Just The One Thing. His GL run was alright.

*IMJ* · 03-18-2022, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red1981

maybe if you let gay characters in your comics for the last 70 years and not hide it this wouldnt be need to be done, there would already be representation but since being gay is still considered bad by people with your attitude, heres a hint there are lgbtq people that read comics, and just maybe they want to see some characters that remind them of themselfs or is that wrong to want that so many people see themselfs in spiderman but thats fine since hes strait, but show a gay character oh no is woke crap get it away no one cares

Hey there guy who looks at the world through his pinhole of experience.... I have:
A) read comics for decades where minorities have been present, accepted and not villfied

B) never done anything that did not "let gay characters" in "my" comics

You revisionist history tool. And on that note, I'm all for inclusion but I don't particularly want to read about a teenage Super"man" making out with his purple haired boyfriend. It's fine but has no appeal to me on it's own merits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red1981

ever thought about the fact i suffer from brain damage, and that maybe i have issues typing and this the best i can do, does that mean i cant be in your special club

And see, while I'm sorry that you have this issue, when you combine the vitriol and shade you inexplicably threw at me and combine it with this post here with the "I can't be in your special club"? See that's called pattern-thinking. As-is most of what I see from you life-angry lefties (coincidence much!??!). Another "I've had it tough and it can't possibly be me or my own attitude or perceptions because I'm good and have had it rough so I'm going to fling mud at a guy who intellectually outranks me because he must be 'evil', 'biased' and 'awful'."

See - you have your brain damage and that's ashame. But the ability to string thoughts into a typed sentence and your projected world view are two different constructs that the other normies here wouldn't know to say to you.

So basically sorry about your head issues but with or without them your positioning, factioning, finger pointing and "I can't be in your club" comments still reveal that with or without brain problems you are most likely still a perceptual @$$hole. So get over it before you fling mud.

03-17-2022, 06:21 PM	#41
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,659	To add to Leo's post, my high school was 50/50 black kids and hispanic kids. Literally only one white dude I ever seen in the entire school (which makes me wonder, now looking back as an adult, if he ever faced any sort of racism or whatever). My black friends LOVED the X-Men, but like most, it was all about how awesome Wolverine, Magneto and Juggernaut were. Not a peep about Bishop, maybe Storm to comment on how they'd ** her, but I mean, they'd also ** Rogue and Jean too. Now one character that resonated with some of my friends was Spawn. He was black, but that was never a factor. The fact that he's 'blacker than blackity black 'yall' was never even brought up. The fact that he was a hellspawn and literally tearing Violater limb from limb in ultaviolent 90's fashion was what they were talking about. They let me borrow the book and read it and whatnot, but never, not once did I hear 'it's a bout time a black hero made it'. Back then my buddies were concerned with the recent death of Jason Todd, the Death of Superman, Spawn being ultra-violent and the new X-Men cartoon. Race was never ever brought up. And these guys were super straight up comic fans. Despite being black, I know they'd bitch to hell and back if the cartoon made Wolverine black or something. And FYI. Nobody liked gay Iceman. Nobody. Gays included. The entire series of his was literally 'omg he's so gaaaaay you guys, and on grinder, and his parents just don't understaaaaaand'. Like... you know he's a superhero right? They crammed Juggernaut in the last issue or so cause they suddenly remembered he's a Marvel character that should be fighting Marvel bad guys. And they also forget that Marvel world is not the real world. The parents accepted him as a mutant, who cares if he's gay???? Like I think they'd actually prefer he was gay than if he was a mutant. Come on now. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

03-17-2022, 06:38 PM	#42
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,283	Or look at something like Star Wars. We should rejoice about diversity and LGBTQ stuff in it? It isn't even our galaxy... there isn't even an Earth there! They don't have an Asia or Africa or anything. And diversity... good god, it has tons of ALIENS as good guys. How is that not as diverse as you can get? __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ]

03-18-2022, 10:43 AM	#54
hypered1 Mad Scientist Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 1,404	Just got the numbers in for #125 - 23,841 units sold. Granted that's down a couple of thousand from #124 which did 27,621, but it's still above the series usual average. __________________

03-18-2022, 03:03 PM	#57
MikeandRaph87 Jedi Master Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: JLA Satellite Headquarters Posts: 11,185	It's like how making Selina Kyle the younger daughter of Carmine Falcone makes her mixed but played by a black actress therefore negating the diversity gimmick. I state that because you the viewer are lead to believe she is Black because the actress is. Same thing with Liz Allen in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Also, how the bloody heck is this book selling 23k? I meanbwhrn it was it's peak quality it was selling 12k or so. So many of us dropped it. There are not nearly as many Furry supporters than loyal TMNT readers. Even from additional samplers from those who picked up The Last Ronin. __________________ Michelangelo: This looks like a job for the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Raphael: Sheesh, Mikey this ain't a cartoon!

03-17-2022, 06:42 PM	#43
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,731	I don't even understand why blacks and Asians exist in Star Wars. It's one of the reasons I wasn't sure if Lando was really black when I watched the original movies for the first time. I mean you could tell he was not white, but I thought it was weird since technically he's an alien. Also besides some background characters I suppose, I don't recall seeing too many black people in the original movies. All the Empire characters were British or German.

03-17-2022, 07:19 PM	#45
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Coola: Dude NONE of the kids in my grade who were into pop culture stuff made preferences based on race or gender or who looked the most like them. ZERO. Which is why it blows my mind nowadays when people swear "People only want or can relate to characters who are Exactly Like Them". I'm like, since WHEN? That was 100% NOT the case back in my day. My first "girlfriend" was a girl I met on the first day of Kindergarten; I fell in love when I saw she brought her Real Ghostbusters action figures for Show & Tell. We'd play "Ghostbusters" all the time, and she never wanted to be Janine, her favorite was Egon. Even when they kind of made Janine the "5th Ghostbuster" from time to time in the cartoon and gave her an action figure in full gear, Egon was still her favorite. She didn't care if there were any girl Ghostbusters. Or like, my closest friend from like 7th Grade until he had kids and moved away and we lost touch about 15 years ago was black (we do still talk on FB, we just haven't seen each other in years); we lived together off and on for a number of years, whenever one of us was in a spot or if he just needed a break from his family or whatever. Absolute "brothers from different mothers" and he even named his son after me, which I think is crazy but it goes to show how tight we've always been. Anyways, he liked Blade and stuff but he also loved Batman and Superman and stuff like that, and one of his favorite movies was "The Big Lebowski"; every time he came over, he made sure I had Austin Powers and Big Lebowski set up and we'd sometimes watch 'em twice. He'd make me rewind parts and play them back over and over and he'd be literally rolling on the floor laughing his ass off. He was a fun guy. But anyways, point being, he wasn't ONLY attracted to "black things". Like, when we used to play-wrestle at his house (kinda like "backyard wrestling" except it was in his screenhouse) and we'd all pick characters, he looked almost exactly like Booker T but he always wanted to be Vader. Legit, one time one of the kids was like "Wouldn't you rather be Booker T?" and he's like, "What, cuz I'm BLACK? I can't be Vader cuz I'm black? I ain't 400 pounds either, n**a, but watch me power bomb your ass, let's see who's talkin' sht." Like he wasn't actually mad he was just making a point. Also, in case I didn't make it clear, I fcking love this guy to death with all my heart. But anyways, yeah, he was rather savvy. Sometimes we'd be watching a movie or a show or whatever, and he'd be like, "I get the feeling sometimes these people feel like, I'unno, like because I'm black I'm 'supposed' to like this character/thing/etc. just because of that. Do they think we're all the same, or black people only like 'black things'? Cuz we're not like that." He would sometimes seem pretty annoyed by it. Like I said, black-centric content was always "appreciated" but it wasn't ALL he liked or was interested in, and he saw a lot of stuff as straight-up pandering which he didn't enjoy. So I sometimes look at stuff "through his eyes" in a sense. I guess times and sensibilities have changed or shifted or whatever. But "back in my day", if you could only "relate" to a show, movie, character, or comic book because "your people" were all over it, you were a closed-minded person. And as I've said many times, "inclusion for the hell of it" didn't win points back then, it had to feel organic and sincere and not like someone was just checking a box. None of my black/female/gay/etc. friends back then especially enjoyed it when they were overtly being pandered to; I guess nowadays so long as you can "see yourself" reflected that's all that matters. But to me, that suggests that standards have fallen rather than risen. BUT, once again to the thread topic... I sincerely don't think anyone specifically hates the IDW run for its "inclusion" themes. I truly believe they hate it because it no longer feels like TMNT to them in any of the ways that matter by their own personal criteria. To be fair, if ANY long-running book or franchise that was mostly known as an action/comedy type of thing suddenly and abruptly shifted into a straight drama/"slice of life" thing with very little action, for the first time in its history on top of that... I really don't think anything* could undergo such a transition without heavy, serious backlash. I don't think it specifically has anything to do with TMNT, or even the specifics of the tonal/content shift. If it were the reverse, like if say Liberty Meadows for example suddenly had become an action strip, I think people would have sh*t on that, too.

03-17-2022, 07:27 PM	#46
~~mrmaczaps~~ Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Maine Posts: 2,619	I'm white but Kyle Rayner GL is Asian/Mexican (if memory serves) and he was always my fav (still is) Green Lantern [course he was also the only one in those days] but I also loved it when John Stewart & Guy showed up. Kilowog is probs my fav alien GL. And then Kyle had an assistant (or something) that was gay, got jumped & that story made headlines, but it was organic not forced. Never needed a character to be the same skin color as long as their character (lol) was aligned more or less with Truth & Justice & doing the Right thing because its The Right Thing... as it should be.

03-17-2022, 07:46 PM	#48
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Like, okay, true story, I only skim pages of this stuff online and read about the broad strokes. I don't know the intricate details. Even from the beginning IDW TMNT has never really hooked me. So to be fair, I jumped off way, way before the current "troubled times". But in what I do know of that whole "Battle of the Bands" arc... spending a ton of time building up to and around that concept, and then at the last minute yanking the rug out and not delivering on what was all but promised, that's just plain poor storytelling and jerking around your audience. Without having read a lot of the material A-to-Z, I suspect there's some underlying message in a lot of Campbell's run about "not all conflicts needing to be resolved with violence", or something to that effect - and again, I can't honestly say, it's just something I kind of infer from the little bit I've seen and heard about - but I mean, violence is sort of implicit with this franchise and these characters and I think it's something people actually want to see more of, not less. So however "noble" it might be it's the wrong approach for this brand. But again, I've read "about" all of it more than I've actually read. So... I'unno.

03-18-2022, 09:36 AM	#53
~~ChosenOne~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,951	Need an easy out for the battle of the bands erupting into a brawl without letting Bebop and Rocksteady massacre everyone? Just have Karai show up at the club. There. Not hard at all. If only someone were being paid to think about this stuff...

03-18-2022, 05:38 PM	#59
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	My only real problem with Judd Winick is that he made them bring Jason Todd back from the dead and 15 years later he was still more useful as "Batman's Greatest Failure" than anything he's ever done in-story since he came back to life. Don't let him near Spider-Man, he'd probably bring back Uncle Ben just so Peter didn't have to be sad anymore. I kid, I kid. Judd's alright. Just The One Thing. His GL run was alright.