"It sells less and less every month"

[Andrew NDB]

If period point blank the only way to make your _____ race/ ____ gender/ _____ sexual character work and sell (if even for a little while) is to hijack and race/gender/sexual preference swap a pre-existing character that sells... you're not a writer. You're a hack. Probably a hacktivist. Probably a slacktivist. Which is not to play the left's game at inventing words to win battles, it's just to save time. And your modified character does not deserve to succeed.

Which isn't to say there isn't well written comics that change characters into this or that. There is. I don't think you'll find many bad words spoken about stuff like "Strangers in Paradise" and such. But these are the creators doing that and it is organic and planned. Not some kind of new form of "This issue is the DEATH of so and so," now "guess who is gay this issue, after 30 years of comics? Better buy all 10 alternate covers, collectors!"

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

i hear what you're saying, but again? it means more coming from a well established character because that's going to get conversation going more than a new character, and yes, we do need original characters, but so often the only reason we even have this controversy is because people go "NOOOOOOOO!!! YOU CANT MAKE A GAY/BLACK/TRANS/FEMALE VERSION OF THIS CHARACTER! HOW WILL I EVER GO ON WHEN I ONLY HAVE A BAJILLION OTHER PIECES OF MEDIA WITH THEM AS A STRAIGHT MALE???"

No one is forcing you to buy it, and if you're so confident it's failing, you won't mind them trying it. Honestly, "Make a new character" is usually just a thinly veiled way of saying "Hide it somewhere where i'm less likely to see it" for a lot of people. (Not you per se)

Now, let me remind you what i said: I get the issue of oversaturation, and hollywood and the rest of the Bourgeoisie are guilty of pandering to demographics and i know thats what you're talking about, but you're calling actual fans--not the elite, just people who think differently than you, who write stories you don't want to read weirdo's, and I don't think thats the right thing to do in such a sweeping manner. There is plenty of good fan fiction out there, even if some writers write things that don't appeal to you.

Either way, I hope that we can at least say our dialog has been non combative and I hope I at least provided food for thought. even if you may not agree with me. Im sorry if I got too heated at any point. Some of these issues like AEW and the corruption of the industry are pretty personal to me as someone who has tried breaking into the biz and got some pretty ****ed up results from people. I hope you can understand that I'm not mad at you or any of your views expressed here thus far.

I felt no ire from you, we're good. Plus it takes an awful lot to piss me off, especially words on the internet.

The thing with new characters is that they're new and can be whatever you want. I mean. c'mon, gimme a super cool character with a super cool moveset, witty banter and cool villains that just so happens to be gay without it being hamfisted and the story actually being about cool heroes fighting cool villains and not just 'oh the hardships of being le gay in America' boring crap and I'll check it out. It's on the writer and creator to make you care and sympathize. If they can't create a new character, build them up for 5 or so issues, then have **** happen to them and you don't care, then that's on them for sucking as a creator or the character themselves sucking.

I don't see a new character as 'hiding it where I can't see it', I see a chance for a new character or franchise to grow. Again, where would we be without cool characters like Spawn? Hell, Spawn was black and that was never EVER a factor or anything in his creation, premise or pitch. He was a bad-ass hellspawn full of epic 90's ultraviolence. Never met a black person that bought it solely cause he was black.

But turning established characters into race-swaps, gender-swaps, or gay for the hell of it is just bad and insults the integrity of the character.


I personally have given up on modern day comics except for certain exceptions like Last Ronin and the Mask comics that came back a bit ago. Stuff like that. And I might pick up IDW TMNT again once it gets good again if I can still find copies in the comic shop.

But mostly I've been getting some original stuff from indiegogo campaigns or people I met at cons, or I but classic late 80's-early 90's stuff like Batman and such. I've really been enjoying the 90's Legends of the Dark Knight series. I do miss the days of Batman stopping or solving regular crimes and every other villain wasn't just a mass murderer. Either that or manga though I've been horrible at keeping up. I haven't even picked up the latest Dragonball Super manga yet.

[hypered1]

I think it worth pointing out that in the context of the IDW TMNT series the only character who's had any kind of gender/ sexuality/ race alteration is possibly Karai depending on how deep her relationship with Natsu is (I'm not particularly familiar with any other versions of Karai but from what I've seen she's either shipped with Leo or has no development it that area at all) and possibly Natsu, if she is indeed a new version of Tatsu from the second film although I've not seen this be officially confirmed as yet.
All the other (all 4 or 5 of them) characters that have exhibited gay/ bi/ whatever personality traits are entirely new to the franchise.
By contrast Raph and Alopex have had way more panel-time than the rest of the notable 'shipping' moments combined and that's not even shown all that regularly.

[TigerClaw]

Originally Posted by hypered1

I think it worth pointing out that in the context of the IDW TMNT series the character who's had any kind of gender/ sexuality/ race alteration is possibly Karai depending on how deep her relationship with Natsu is (I'm not particularly familiar with any other versions of Karai but from what I've seen she's either shipped with Leo or has no development it that area at all) and possibly Natsu, if she is indeed a new version of Tatsu from the second film although I've not seen this be officially confirmed as yet.
All the other (all 4 or 5 of them) characters that have exhibited gay/ bi/ whatever personality traits are entirely new to the franchise.
By contrast Raph and Alopex have had way more panel-time than the rest of the notable 'shipping' moments combined and that's not even shown all that regularly.

It will need more panels with Donnie and Mona Lisa to even things out.

[mrmaczaps]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

It will need more panels with Donnie and Mona Lisa to even things out.

Way more NINJA is needed and 100% less of any kind of shipping garbage. I don't want to see any interspecies relations, mutant or human. 25 issues of softcore furries porn is 26 issues too many.

[Weapons@theready]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

It will need more panels with Donnie and Mona Lisa to even things out.

NO! Donatello DOES machines, bring in Optimus Prime.

[Bahamut810]

Originally Posted by hypered1

All the other (all 4 or 5 of them) characters that have exhibited gay/ bi/ whatever personality traits are entirely new to the franchise.

I would argue that Jennika was always portrayed as straight until just recently. She may be new for the IDW series, but she was *always* had straight relationships.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Bahamut810

I would argue that Jennika was always portrayed as straight until just recently. She may be new for the IDW series, but she was *always* had straight relationships.

Just because it wasn't mentioned earlier doesn't mean it was never there - before Jennika was paired with Sheena people were complaining she didn't have enough development, then she was given development and the same people are complaining about that.

Bottom line this is all semantics.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Just because it wasn't mentioned earlier doesn't mean it was never there - before Jennika was paired with Sheena people were complaining she didn't have enough development, then she was given development and the same people are complaining about that.

Bottom line this is all semantics.

Sexual preference isn't character development. It's just sexual preference.

[Weapons@theready]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Just because it wasn't mentioned earlier doesn't mean it was never there - .

I mean if it isn't mentioned and you throw in the fact that there are no context clues to hint at it then it absolutely stands to reason that it wasn't there.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Just because it wasn't mentioned earlier doesn't mean it was never there - before Jennika was paired with Sheena people were complaining she didn't have enough development, then she was given development and the same people are complaining about that.

Bottom line this is all semantics.

How the hell does her sexual preference equal development? Might as well just call her 'the bi one'. That's just insulting to what little character she has if that's considered development.

Same problem Tim Drake has. We don't know what to do with him... but hey, making bi should help! Somehow! Cause Reasons!

[neatoman]

Even if it was development, and it isn't to be honest, it still wouldn't be much to brag about. Sheena kisses Jennika, Jennika backs out because that boring side story from Universe got retconned as being romantic and then they decide to get together. It's not very interesting and needed to parasitise another unimpressive story to work, which it still failed at.

[MattOnWheels]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

How the hell does her sexual preference equal development? Might as well just call her 'the bi one'. That's just insulting to what little character she has if that's considered development.

Same problem Tim Drake has. We don't know what to do with him... but hey, making bi should help! Somehow! Cause Reasons!

I think you're underestimating the positives of fleshing out things like that. There are plenty of Bi kids that find great inspiration from having one of their heroes be the same. The isssue is execution. But you have to be very careful tto mean it when you say that. It's like I said: Sometimes it's just used as code for "AS A STRAIGHT PERSON I AM UNCOMFORTABLE!"

Frankly, I have read every issue of the comic and calling what they do "Soft furry porn" is a stretch to say the very least. People have relationships. Mutants can have relationships. Now are they written well? Thats different. For me, I personally marked out when Raph and Alopex kissed. It was time, and that was a great little scene. As for the others? Can't complain.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

How the hell does her sexual preference equal development? Might as well just call her 'the bi one'. That's just insulting to what little character she has if that's considered development.

Her sexual preference in and of itself may not be development per se, but an aspect of what we knew or assumed of the character was altered; Jennika being straight was an assumption made by readers, her being revealed as bi with Sheena was a deliberate confirmation of that aspect of her character and that absolutely is development.

It's no different than an existing character gaining a family member or attaining a new skillset - it's a defined component of the character's overall persona and their history.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by hypered1

Her sexual preference in and of itself may not be development per se, but an aspect of what we knew or assumed of the character was altered

No. Still no. Not knowing which way Raphael wipes his butt -- or even assuming he wipes it front to back -- and then revealing in issue #30 that he wipes his butt back to front isn't anything. Even if it hypothetically gives jollies to people who, too, wipe their butt back to front. It's just a preference.

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

No. Still no. Not knowing which way Raphael wipes his butt -- or even assuming he wipes it front to back -- and then revealing in issue #30 that he wipes his butt back to front isn't anything. Even if it hypothetically gives jollies to people who, too, wipe their butt back to front. It's just a preference.

Don't be ignorant Andrew we both know you're better than that.
Character relationships have always been a type of development ever since comics first began.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by MattOnWheels

I think you're underestimating the positives of fleshing out things like that. There are plenty of Bi kids that find great inspiration from having one of their heroes be the same. The isssue is execution. But you have to be very careful tto mean it when you say that. It's like I said: Sometimes it's just used as code for "AS A STRAIGHT PERSON I AM UNCOMFORTABLE!"

Frankly, I have read every issue of the comic and calling what they do "Soft furry porn" is a stretch to say the very least. People have relationships. Mutants can have relationships. Now are they written well? Thats different. For me, I personally marked out when Raph and Alopex kissed. It was time, and that was a great little scene. As for the others? Can't complain.

The thing is, TMNT was never super relationship heavy. Probably the closest most involved relationship was Raph and Ninjara and even that was in the background of the main story. I mean even April and Casey's relationship is in the background because they're not the main characters.

IDW decided to put their story to a grinding halt putting the relationship stuff in the forefront and any extra story (if the battle of the bands even counts as one) in the background.


Then they pretty much wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It was like 'so the turtles aren't big on relationships? LET'S CREATE A CRAPTON OF OCs AND MAKE THEM ALL HAVE RELATIONSHIPS!?!!!111ONEONEONE

[hypered1]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

LET'S CREATE A CRAPTON OF OCs AND MAKE THEM ALL HAVE RELATIONSHIPS!?!!!111ONEONEONE

Except they didn't; since #101 there have been TWO new relationships: Jennika/Sheena and Donnie/Mona.

And as I've said before the other new characters are just students of the dojo, occasional henchmen for badguys or crowd fillers.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

The thing is, TMNT was never super relationship heavy. Probably the closest most involved relationship was Raph and Ninjara and even that was in the background of the main story. I mean even April and Casey's relationship is in the background because they're not the main characters.

IDW decided to put their story to a grinding halt putting the relationship stuff in the forefront and any extra story (if the battle of the bands even counts as one) in the background.


Then they pretty much wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It was like 'so the turtles aren't big on relationships? LET'S CREATE A CRAPTON OF OCs AND MAKE THEM ALL HAVE RELATIONSHIPS!?!!!111ONEONEONE

Yeah, I remember back in the day how while Ninjara was rather popular with some fans, there were also plenty who were like "Get this kissy-face crap out of my Ninja Turtles books." So these aren't even new conversations.

It just used to be very understood that "Nobody reads TMNT for romance and relationships, period," and NOW there's a VERY small yet vocal minority who WANTS TMNT to suddenly be that and they won't settle for being told that it's simply not the best use of the characters.

But that's the way it works nowadays. A couple people want something a WHOLE bunch, while nobody else cares about or wants that. But that handful of people will scream over and over about how "important" it is for them to get their way, and so they get their way, and meanwhile the majority who Don't Want/Don't Care get called names.

- TMNT has never been a romance comic or a "slice of life" drama
- Most people don't want it to be either of those things, it runs entirely counter to every single thing they ever liked about the franchise
- Any business that makes it a point to ignore and belittle its own audience simply isn't destined for a grand future

Again. If we went back to 1991 and someone, ANYONE said, "I like Ninja Turtles and everything but I wish the stories were more about a bunch of mutants sitting around not doing anything, and the Turtles themselves were barely in it and there was a lot of romance and political stuff in it"... that person now has an entire lunch table to themselves.

I miss the "Keep your dumb ideas to yourself, because they are dumb" era. But as others have said... Internet.

[Coola Yagami]

People forget, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


Personally I don't get it. They obviously love the series AS IS or else they wouldn't be fans to begin with. So why try to change things and ruin it? This exactly why niche things stop being awesome once they become mainstream. The normies ruin it.