Young Justice animated series - Page 38

*CyberCubed* · 04-22-2022, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

So was there any woke stuff before the series was resurrected, or is there like a line there and everything afterward is where it suddenly started popping up?

No, remember the show started in 2011 an entire decade ago, and aired on Cartoon Network at a time kids would watch it. They weren't even allowed to show blood in the first two seasons for this reason, so of course there wasn't any gay stuff at the time. That wasn't a thing back in 2011-2013 when the show originally aired.

I mean this version of Aqualad was made black but that doesn't really matter as he was the only black member on the team. The female characters like Artemis, Miss Martian and Zatanna all liked boys or had boyfriends as the show went on, so there was no gay stuff either. Blue Beetle came in Season 2 who is hispanic but again that's fine since that's who the character is in the comics.

So not really, it's only with the revival since it airs on HBO and not Cartoon Network anymore that they're allowed to put in gay relationships. I do like there's now actual blood during the fight scenes and characters can get stabbed though, this is something the usual kids programming censors prevented them from doing for the most part besides sneaking things in once in awhile.

~~Leo656~~ · 04-22-2022, 10:43 PM

Black Aqualad had been around in the comics for a couple of years by then, too, so I just chalked that up to trying to be contemporary, same with Miss Martian being in it.

superstaff · 04-23-2022, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Felt to me like it started creeping in with Season 2 when it was "just" a more diverse cast of characters, like sticking a no-name like Bumblebee in there because "Well, we *need* to have a black girl even if nobody knows who this character is".

But then that's always how it starts, so I'm not in any way shocked by what it turned into.

For me, having minority or gay characters doesn't inherently make something woke. I think it's fine to have diversity in your story, it helps to make it more interesting, both visually and from a storytelling perspective.

For me, the problem is the lecturing tone. Take the clip Cyber posted. It's literally them sitting there for two minutes (you don't even see their faces), talking about pronouns, and Violet deciding what to call herself, er, themself? It's a lot of telling, not showing. Hell, it's not even telling, it's more like finger wagging, and demanding the audience accept and love Violet for being a they now. There isn't much more to her character either, it's all related to her (their?) race, religion, and gender (pronouns). And powers, I guess, but seems like they've forgotten that this is a superhero show.

~~Leo656~~ · 04-23-2022, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superstaff

For me, having minority or gay characters doesn't inherently make something woke. I think it's fine to have diversity in your story, it helps to make it more interesting, both visually and from a storytelling perspective.

For me, the problem is the lecturing tone. Take the clip Cyber posted. It's literally them sitting there for two minutes (you don't even see their faces), talking about pronouns, and Violet deciding what to call herself, er, themself? It's a lot of telling, not showing. Hell, it's not even telling, it's more like finger wagging, and demanding the audience accept and love Violet for being a they now. There isn't much more to her character either, it's all related to her (their?) race, religion, and gender (pronouns). And powers, I guess, but seems like they've forgotten that this is a superhero show.

Not inherently, no, BUT considering the times we live in it's never as innocent as just having a more textured cast. Not anymore. The characters in turn have to be a delivery system for the writers' personal rhetoric, and scold or finger-wag the audience. I.e., "We need this character to be black so that we can sneak in lines about White Privilege", and so on.

*Coola Yagami* · 04-23-2022, 12:19 PM

Yeah, they just can't help themselves.

*CyberCubed* · 04-23-2022, 02:42 PM

Aqualad wasn't gay in the first two seasons, he got kissed by a girl in one episode too. It was only after the revival they decided to make him gay. CN obviously had a mandate of no gay characters in the early 2010's.

*Andrew NDB* · 04-23-2022, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Aqualad wasn't gay in the first two seasons, he got kissed by a girl in one episode too. It was only after the revival they decided to make him gay. CN obviously had a mandate of no gay characters in the early 2010's.

That Aqualad showed up in the comics around the same time. Definitely straight. Then the New52 happened and he went away for a couple of years. Then suddenly gay.

**Jester** · 04-23-2022, 04:46 PM

I've had this question for a bit and I just want to see what others think about it:
Why is the preferred pronoun thing such a massive deal? When you are talking to a person the only pronoun you use is the gender neutral "You". The only time someones preferred pronouns would come into play is when you are talking ABOUT someone, right? So then it becomes an issue of respecting someone when they aren't around, which you really ought to do I guess, but it kind of comes of as presumptive that you will be the topic of discussion when not around.

*CyberCubed* · 04-23-2022, 05:04 PM

I don't get that either, calling someone, "they/them" actually sounds offensive to me, as if they're not a real person but like an alien or robot or something. I have no idea how that caught on.

Like even if I was gay or thought I was a woman or whatever (lol), I would still want to be referred to as he/him. Why would I want to be known as a, "they?" That sounds so wrong.

superstaff · 04-23-2022, 05:13 PM

Since I've had the displeasure of hanging around in social circles with people obsessed with pronouns, I think a lot of them just enjoy the attention, and finding their 'own', so to speak, by having others write their pronouns online and whatnot.

Someone got angry at me on Twitter a while back because my bio didn't have my pronouns. I just don't care, and my account is mostly nerdy junk so...I just don't care if people see me as whatever. It still offended her enough to throw insults at me, and label me as a bigot.

But yeah, it's about having a feeling of being special, and of belonging to a group that also show off their pronouns, and make a big deal of them. It's a clique, basically.

~~Sumac~~ · 04-23-2022, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

I've had this question for a bit and I just want to see what others think about it:
Why is the preferred pronoun thing such a massive deal? When you are talking to a person the only pronoun you use is the gender neutral "You". The only time someones preferred pronouns would come into play is when you are talking ABOUT someone, right? So then it becomes an issue of respecting someone when they aren't around, which you really ought to do I guess, but it kind of comes of as presumptive that you will be the topic of discussion when not around.

Because, it signals that person is a self-obsessed attention whore, who wants to DICTATE you how you should treat them. Basically an abuser, who wants to use you as a tool for their self-gratification. And I hate people like that, as any other normal person.

Or they are just mentally ill, which is basically the same. And you don't pander to mentally ill - it'll make their sickness even worse.

*Andrew NDB* · 04-23-2022, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I don't get that either, calling someone, "they/them" actually sounds offensive to me, as if they're not a real person but like an alien or robot or something. I have no idea how that caught on.

Because we let it.

~~Leo656~~ · 04-23-2022, 11:33 PM

Yeah, to me referring to a human being as "They" sounds incredibly dehumanizing and I really don't like to do it. And forget all the "Xhim/Xher" nonsense or whatever.

It's all just jerking off for attention from people who go out of their way to demand attention while simultaneously whining that they "Just want to be treated like everyone else!"

Okay, so be f*cking Normal, then.

Remember "normal"? It was a thing for thousands of years until some blue-haired Smith College graduate got high and thought out loud, "Well, I mean, what IS 'normal', anyway?"

It's what you're supposed to be so society doesn't come to see you as a disruptive f*cking nuisance, that's what "normal" is. We need to get back to that, as well as teaching people shame.

*Andrew NDB* · 04-24-2022, 02:43 AM

A case could be made for "they" being dehumanizing, sure, but it's also just dumb. Is there more than one person standing there? Maybe if they're a schizophrenic or something, sure, I will officially make sure and say "they" and "them" if that'll make them happy. Otherwise no.

Honestly, though, and particular to the "they/them" people (which isn't unlike "queer" people in that they want to fit into a group but don't, so they just make something up that means nothing so they do on a technicality), they strike me the way leftists do that don't care about burning down IPs as long as they get their "salty manchild tears" or whatever at the end of the day. They know they're not "they/them" but if someone points it out or says it's dumb they can laugh and point a finger and claim they're a victim or that you're a bigot.... which is really what they love doing the most over all things. It's like orgasmic to them, especially when they can get their buddies/like-minded people giving them real or digital high fives about it in real time.

So kind of a "bigot bait," if you will. Just ignore them. Don't bite.

~~Leo656~~ · 04-24-2022, 03:35 AM

To be fair, the "singular They" has been in usage for quite a long time, but it's since been coopted and hijacked.

It used to be typically used if you were speaking generally, in terms that could describe any person whether they were male or female. Example: "If everyone a person meets is 'an asshole', the truth is more likely that They, themselves, are the asshole."

That's fine, that makes sense, it's proper usage. It's simpler and more fluid than saying "He or She" instead of They. That's the entire point of "Singular They".

Now, though, it's "I refuse to be defined by your labels! I am neither He nor She... I am THEY!"

Doesn't work like that.

Michael Jackson probably "identified" internally as a white person, or at the very least, he really really WANTED to be one. But he still openly said he was black, but even if he did not, and if they did a DNA test, guess what? Black. If he'd somehow claimed to be a woman, guess what? That's not what the DNA would say.

You're not "what you say you are". I know that a lot of people hate themselves for one or many reasons and wish they could be something or anything else but what they are. But making up words and changing the rules "on paper" doesn't do anything of substance. It's just masturbating, and forcing other people to watch and indulge you in it.

And tellingly, it ALWAYS comes from people who swear up and down "I don't want any special attention!"

Right, Demi Lovato. That's why the mohawk and the giant f*cking spider tattoo on your head. Because you are so NOT a Look-At-Me-Stanley and you really can't stand being gawked at.

*Andrew NDB* · 04-24-2022, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

To be fair, the "singular They" has been in usage for quite a long time, but it's since been coopted and hijacked.

No, no, absolutely. And "they" and "them" are frequently used in the place of "he" or "her" often since forever. This isn't really about that at all. This is about people taking "They/them" and putting a little ™ next to it for themself, and if you say something other than that then oh boy, you're in deep sh**. Then it's "I gotcha!"

~~Sumac~~ · 04-24-2022, 06:02 AM

Count me in the same camp, as other people who think using "them / they" for a person whose sex is known is stupid and dehumanizing.

*Andrew NDB* · 04-24-2022, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sumac

Count me in the same camp, as other people who think using "them / they" for a person whose sex is known is stupid and dehumanizing.

You're right, but I just think you're playing into their hand a little bit with this. Because then it is, "Oh, what, you're saying I'm not a human??!" cue the "others." The only sound response is a firm ignoring, I think. Maybe a giggle or a hand wave if they persist.

superstaff · 04-24-2022, 07:12 AM

I'm a 'live and let live' sort of person. If a person really feels that strongly about it, then I think it's fine for them to consider themselves a 'they'. I haven't had a friend who refers to themselves as a they (because I don't have any friends :/) but if I did, and they asked me politely, I'd probably shrug, and do it. I don't think it's a big deal in and of itself.

However, my problem is when people become a-holes about it. By this, I mean, when they are militant about their pronouns to the point of harassing anyone who misgenders them, and whatnot. I also despise when the media now glamorizes, promotes, and shoves it down people's throats, but that goes for anything and everything like acting like being a minority/LGBT+/whatever is somehow superior to anyone and everyone else. Honestly, I don't think most people, especially in the media, actually understand sexuality, and simplify it to a ridiculous degree. For instance, they recently made Tim Drake bisexual in the comics. Because he is bi, they said they needed to break him up from his heterosexual relationship and put him in a homosexual one...because apparently bisexuals can't be with the opposite sex. Dafuq? I'm bi myself, and with the opposite sex, and I found that to be incredibly ignorant when the writers and fans said this. The YJ stuff is just another example of this, and of course, all of this stuff is poorly written, and just disrupts the flow of the show. I'm okay with action shows delving into relationships and character drama, but not like this. It's just virtue signaling peppered with a lot of ignorance.

~~Leo656~~ · 04-24-2022, 07:31 AM

Yeah, I haven't really read comics in years but I check the news and such, so I read about that stuff.

I agree, the whole "A person isn't 'really' or clearly illustrated to be bisexual unless they're in a same-sex relationship" thing is just bizarre. For one thing, last I checked that was just called Being Gay.

Honestly, I feel the worst for bisexual people because they seemingly get it from all sides (wakka wakka). Straight people hate them for being "deviants", and gay people hate them for "not picking a side". It really must be frustrating to be a marginalized minority and be forced to eat sh*t from OTHER marginalized minorities who really ought to know better.

In terms of fiction, it just seems lazy. "We don't want to write the character with any nuance, so we simply say they're 'bisexual' but exclusively grant them same-sex partners, just to make sure people really 'get it'. And also, that way we can walk it back later if people don't care for it." It's rare you see any character written to be a "proper" bisexual; they generally end up Just Being Gay, and again, that's kind of lazy from a writing standpoint.

04-23-2022, 12:19 PM	#745
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,719	Yeah, they just can't help themselves. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

04-23-2022, 04:46 PM	#748
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,301	I've had this question for a bit and I just want to see what others think about it: Why is the preferred pronoun thing such a massive deal? When you are talking to a person the only pronoun you use is the gender neutral "You". The only time someones preferred pronouns would come into play is when you are talking ABOUT someone, right? So then it becomes an issue of respecting someone when they aren't around, which you really ought to do I guess, but it kind of comes of as presumptive that you will be the topic of discussion when not around. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

04-24-2022, 02:43 AM	#754
Andrew NDB Weed Whacker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 34,574	A case could be made for "they" being dehumanizing, sure, but it's also just dumb. Is there more than one person standing there? Maybe if they're a schizophrenic or something, sure, I will officially make sure and say "they" and "them" if that'll make them happy. Otherwise no. Honestly, though, and particular to the "they/them" people (which isn't unlike "queer" people in that they want to fit into a group but don't, so they just make something up that means nothing so they do on a technicality), they strike me the way leftists do that don't care about burning down IPs as long as they get their "salty manchild tears" or whatever at the end of the day. They know they're not "they/them" but if someone points it out or says it's dumb they can laugh and point a finger and claim they're a victim or that you're a bigot.... which is really what they love doing the most over all things. It's like orgasmic to them, especially when they can get their buddies/like-minded people giving them real or digital high fives about it in real time. So kind of a "bigot bait," if you will. Just ignore them. Don't bite. __________________ [ ODYSSEY \| ORIGIN \| THE IMAGE/VOL. 3 CONCLUSION \| THE SHELLSHOCKED PODCAST \| ON FACEBOOK ] Last edited by Andrew NDB; 04-24-2022 at 02:49 AM.

04-22-2022, 10:43 PM	#742
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Black Aqualad had been around in the comics for a couple of years by then, too, so I just chalked that up to trying to be contemporary, same with Miss Martian being in it.

04-23-2022, 02:42 PM	#746
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,888	Aqualad wasn't gay in the first two seasons, he got kissed by a girl in one episode too. It was only after the revival they decided to make him gay. CN obviously had a mandate of no gay characters in the early 2010's.

04-23-2022, 05:04 PM	#749
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,888	I don't get that either, calling someone, "they/them" actually sounds offensive to me, as if they're not a real person but like an alien or robot or something. I have no idea how that caught on. Like even if I was gay or thought I was a woman or whatever (lol), I would still want to be referred to as he/him. Why would I want to be known as a, "they?" That sounds so wrong.

04-23-2022, 05:13 PM	#750
superstaff Mad Scientist Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 1,091	Since I've had the displeasure of hanging around in social circles with people obsessed with pronouns, I think a lot of them just enjoy the attention, and finding their 'own', so to speak, by having others write their pronouns online and whatnot. Someone got angry at me on Twitter a while back because my bio didn't have my pronouns. I just don't care, and my account is mostly nerdy junk so...I just don't care if people see me as whatever. It still offended her enough to throw insults at me, and label me as a bigot. But yeah, it's about having a feeling of being special, and of belonging to a group that also show off their pronouns, and make a big deal of them. It's a clique, basically.

04-23-2022, 11:33 PM	#753
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Yeah, to me referring to a human being as "They" sounds incredibly dehumanizing and I really don't like to do it. And forget all the "Xhim/Xher" nonsense or whatever. It's all just jerking off for attention from people who go out of their way to demand attention while simultaneously whining that they "Just want to be treated like everyone else!" Okay, so be fcking Normal, then. Remember "normal"? It was a thing for thousands of years until some blue-haired Smith College graduate got high and thought out loud, "Well, I mean, what IS 'normal', anyway?" It's what you're supposed to be so society doesn't come to see you as a disruptive fcking nuisance, that's what "normal" is. We need to get back to that, as well as teaching people shame.

04-24-2022, 03:35 AM	#755
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	To be fair, the "singular They" has been in usage for quite a long time, but it's since been coopted and hijacked. It used to be typically used if you were speaking generally, in terms that could describe any person whether they were male or female. Example: "If everyone a person meets is 'an asshole', the truth is more likely that They, themselves, are the asshole." That's fine, that makes sense, it's proper usage. It's simpler and more fluid than saying "He or She" instead of They. That's the entire point of "Singular They". Now, though, it's "I refuse to be defined by your labels! I am neither He nor She... I am THEY!" Doesn't work like that. Michael Jackson probably "identified" internally as a white person, or at the very least, he really really WANTED to be one. But he still openly said he was black, but even if he did not, and if they did a DNA test, guess what? Black. If he'd somehow claimed to be a woman, guess what? That's not what the DNA would say. You're not "what you say you are". I know that a lot of people hate themselves for one or many reasons and wish they could be something or anything else but what they are. But making up words and changing the rules "on paper" doesn't do anything of substance. It's just masturbating, and forcing other people to watch and indulge you in it. And tellingly, it ALWAYS comes from people who swear up and down "I don't want any special attention!" Right, Demi Lovato. That's why the mohawk and the giant f*cking spider tattoo on your head. Because you are so NOT a Look-At-Me-Stanley and you really can't stand being gawked at.

04-24-2022, 06:02 AM	#757
~~Sumac~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6,129	Count me in the same camp, as other people who think using "them / they" for a person whose sex is known is stupid and dehumanizing.

04-24-2022, 07:12 AM	#759
superstaff Mad Scientist Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 1,091	I'm a 'live and let live' sort of person. If a person really feels that strongly about it, then I think it's fine for them to consider themselves a 'they'. I haven't had a friend who refers to themselves as a they (because I don't have any friends :/) but if I did, and they asked me politely, I'd probably shrug, and do it. I don't think it's a big deal in and of itself. However, my problem is when people become a-holes about it. By this, I mean, when they are militant about their pronouns to the point of harassing anyone who misgenders them, and whatnot. I also despise when the media now glamorizes, promotes, and shoves it down people's throats, but that goes for anything and everything like acting like being a minority/LGBT+/whatever is somehow superior to anyone and everyone else. Honestly, I don't think most people, especially in the media, actually understand sexuality, and simplify it to a ridiculous degree. For instance, they recently made Tim Drake bisexual in the comics. Because he is bi, they said they needed to break him up from his heterosexual relationship and put him in a homosexual one...because apparently bisexuals can't be with the opposite sex. Dafuq? I'm bi myself, and with the opposite sex, and I found that to be incredibly ignorant when the writers and fans said this. The YJ stuff is just another example of this, and of course, all of this stuff is poorly written, and just disrupts the flow of the show. I'm okay with action shows delving into relationships and character drama, but not like this. It's just virtue signaling peppered with a lot of ignorance.

04-24-2022, 07:31 AM	#760
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Yeah, I haven't really read comics in years but I check the news and such, so I read about that stuff. I agree, the whole "A person isn't 'really' or clearly illustrated to be bisexual unless they're in a same-sex relationship" thing is just bizarre. For one thing, last I checked that was just called Being Gay. Honestly, I feel the worst for bisexual people because they seemingly get it from all sides (wakka wakka). Straight people hate them for being "deviants", and gay people hate them for "not picking a side". It really must be frustrating to be a marginalized minority and be forced to eat sh*t from OTHER marginalized minorities who really ought to know better. In terms of fiction, it just seems lazy. "We don't want to write the character with any nuance, so we simply say they're 'bisexual' but exclusively grant them same-sex partners, just to make sure people really 'get it'. And also, that way we can walk it back later if people don't care for it." It's rare you see any character written to be a "proper" bisexual; they generally end up Just Being Gay, and again, that's kind of lazy from a writing standpoint.