Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero

[sdp]

Canon never mattered and definitely doesn't matter to Toei and Toriyama as long as you buy figures. Which is why SSJ4 keeps showing up despite GT not being canon, Garlic Jr appearing in the anime despite that the movie it references can't happen, why you have XenoVerse and All these video game continuities like super Dragon Ball Heroes and why the Manga "canon" Super anime retcons DBZ and ignores the super Manga canon as well.

Dragon Ball ended in the 90s. Anything after is just official fan service. And that's fine but it's silly to get into canon arguments

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

At this point the manga arcs may never be adapted to the anime so they may not even be canon.

That's not how that works, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman does not have an adaptation yet the anime still clearly expected you to have read it.

[CyberCubed]

The anime and manga already contradict each other, as the way the Tournament of Power plays out in the manga is completely different than the anime. Different characters beat different characters, and Kefla never fights Goku in the manga and half of the main cast is wasted.

Also with Super Hero taking place later in the timeline (Pan is 2 and Trunks/Goten are grown up), it'll be awkward to adapt the Moro arc and the Granola arc which takes place before this with everyone still kids again and Gohan without his recent power up.

My guess is if they do adapt Moro to the anime, they'll re-write the entire arc. I mean even the Goku Black/Zamasu arc in the manga is different than the anime version (Future Trunks never defeats him, the battles play out differently), so it really is a different continuity now. It's not like the original manga which was Toriyama's canon and the anime threw in some filler episodes and scenes, now the manga is just its own thing.

[neatoman]

The reason for the manga and the anime being different is mainly because one isn't directly based on the other, it's because they work from the same synopsis. If I were to guess, the synopsis Toriyama wrote for the Zamasu arc probably isn't more detailed than:
"Trunks comes back because there is an evil Goku killing everyone or something, so they look into it and it turns out he's actually a god who the tournament on Youtube or some shit and used the Dragon Balls to swap bodies, so they go back to the future to kick his ass after killed him in the past. I guess the Mafuba would work. But then it turns out he teamed up with his future self and they fuse, so Goku and Vegeta fuse so there can be a pretty sweet fusion vs fusion match. Then it looks they beat him but then he, like I don't know, makes a billion copies of himself. So they get the help from the all-powerful god who just blows up the entire timeline, I guess that will explain why he can't keep showing up. Then... Trunks gets to live in a copy of his timeline, that's close enough to a happy ending. I don't know, fill in the blanks, I'm tired...".
If the TV anime were to come back, I don't think there would be much of a reason to deviate anymore, given that there exists a more concrete story this time.

As for this notion that there needs to be an animated version to constitute canon, still doesn't make sense. It's not like the contradictions are all that meaningful here, the stories all end up in the same place (BoG still ends with Goku getting God mode, RoF still had them turn blue, Universe 6 still got Earth back, Zeno still destroyed Trunks' timeline, ToP still ended with Freeza coming back to life, etc). As for the contradictions that do exist, does anyone actually think they matter? Does anyone actually care if Kefla, a character who is a combination of two minor characters and who probably won't ever come back, was defeated by Goku or Gohan? And the manga simply having story arcs that do not exist animated form does not constitute a contradiction, Super Hero does not contradict the manga only arcs because it doesn't occupy the same place in the timeline. And need I remind you that the movie versions of BoG and RoF are very different from the TV versions, so if we're gonna have to take this logic and run with it, we have to discount one or the other in order to make the story work, which we don't really have to.

Sorry if that was a little bit ranty but you have to understand that the Super era's notion of canon isn't a very strict one in comparison to the olden days. The way it's structured it's almost as if it's designed so you could watch the the TV version of BoG, go for the movie version of RoF next then read the manga version of the Universe 6 tournament. It's very much focused on how it starts and ends, not so much the details in between.

If the TV anime were to come back, it would probably be something like this:

1. The thing with the Cell Juniors in the manga along with some Tournament epilogue.
2. Retroactive adaptation of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and Minus, along with some additional backstory for Broly.
3. A retelling of the Broly movie.
4. The Moro arc.
5. The Granolah arc.
6. Whatever arc(s) that comes after the Granolah arc.
7. Retelling of Super Hero.
8. Retelling of whatever manga arc(s) is set after Super Hero.
9. Retelling of whatever movie(s) comes next.
10. Retelling of Z's ending.

And I'm not pulling this out of my ass either, it's based on what the TV version of Super actually did before. The only difference being the omission of pure filler.

[oldmanwinters]

Saw it on an IMAX-ish big screen last night and enjoyed it greatly.

I successfully avoided reading or listening to spoilers since the Japanese release, but seeing images of the new character transformations was pretty much unavoidable given the inexcusably large delay getting that thing released over here, so I hope Toei/Funimation/Cruncyroll are happy.

My local theatre is offering showings of the subtitled Japanese version, so I might go check that out tomorrow.

This film seems to be the point where the source material becomes fully aware of the franchise's own tropes to the point where it's basically a running gag played straight throughout the film. The movie seems to want to have that AND recreate the emotional beats of the Android/Cell sagas, and I'd say it has mixed success (at best) in that regard. Even the post-credits scene is an odd mix of it, as if it exists only to throw a bone to

Spoiler:

frustrated Vegeta fanboys.

Anyhoo, I think the most interesting part of the movie is probably the introduction of the villains in the first 10 minutes, prior to any appearance by the "Dragon Team" mains or even the film's title. The whole Red Ribbon army saga got way convoluted with its retcons back in DBZ, and I think this film does its best to reconcile as much as it wants to with continuity that stretches back to the 1980s. And the RR spin on the franchise history was inspired,

making "the aliens" into a villainous conspiracy dedicated to world domination It was entirely believable and allowed Dr. Hedo to remain some endearing quality to the audience. Also, RR Army rebranded as the Red Pharmaceutical Company could be some real biting satire.

For the most part, the fully 3D animation is a rousing success. The city scapes and RR base look very good in the 3D wide shots. I prefer traditional 2D animation for this franchise, but I'll take a 3D style over 2D with obvious 3D elements sticking out. DBS: Broly seemed to balance it well, but most shows don't. Characters look great in motion but a little weird ("off model" even) when they stand/sit around talking. Maybe it has something to do with ADR for the dub?

The opening animation summarizing Goku's struggles against the Red Ribbon army looks amazing. I honestly couldn't tell whether it was 2D or 3D animation.

I was glad to finally get a DB movie that features Piccolo as the main character.

I never cease to be amazed at the franchise trope of "random Earth scientist builds machine or android who rivals or surpasses the strongest forces in the multiverse."

And now Capsule Corp has one of each under the same roof.

I was surprised the movie wasn't afraid to exploit Bulma (nothing above PG though) for some laughs, but for the most part, she always seemed to be in on the jokes. Her dubbed voice seemed a little "off" to me... not sure why, but looks like Monica Rial did the voice over, so who knows?

Broly has a couple lines of dialogue in this film, so maybe they were trying to dodge the brunt of the controversy over recasting the character after the Vic Mignogna fallout?

Beerus seems to have

Spoiler:

sex

on his mind. Can't believe I typed that. But I think he still prefers

Spoiler:

sleep and ice cream.

I had no idea Charles Martinet (It's-a-me-Mario) had a major role in this film, and I didn't even notice until I finally started watching fan reviews today. I didn't even think he was in the Funimation orbit for available options.

Zeno Robinson's voice, on the other hand, was obvious to me through the whole film. Made me think of Remy Remington from Disney's Big City Greens every time he spoke.

Also, Krillin gets a nice moment or two to shine, so that's something.

Pan seems to be set up for larger things in the franchise's future, but she doesn't do anything obnoxious in this film, and I'm thankful for that. Trunks and Goten are visibly older now, but I don't have great hope for their future development.

Also, Videl is a character in the movie... I think. Some of the little story beats she has seem to be wrapped up in the credits-overlaid artwork.

Mr. Satan and Buu are discussed, but they don't get any actual cameos, so far as I remember.

I can't imagine being an obsessive fan trying to even comprehend "power scaling" at this point.

Spoiler:

Cell Max didn't seem to have much in the way of "cellular regeneration." After a major attack, he loses an arm for the remainder of the fight, which helps turn the tide for the heroes. His death was perfectly satisfying but I felt the original Perfect Cell was WAY trickier to kill because he could regenerate fully from any functioning cells. OG Cell's head wasn't an exploitable weakness at all.

[Coola Yagami]

To be fair, DB will always be a Japanese franchise, despite what Funimation wants to boast or whatever, all they do is dub it. Nothing in the US affects Toei so they could have had Broly in 90% of the movie if they wanted with little regard to the Vic nonsense.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

To be fair, DB will always be a Japanese franchise, despite what Funimation wants to boast or whatever, all they do is dub it. Nothing in the US affects Toei so they could have had Broly in 90% of the movie if they wanted with little regard to the Vic nonsense.

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

EDIT: The more I think about it, wasn't TOEI reportedly infuriated with Funimation about all how the Vic situation played out... and the fallout with fans? There was even some speculation they might pull the franchise license.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

Argh. True. Though I think they stopped doing that ******** in recent years.

Idk if it was to pay the actors for more lines or cause they thought us dumb Americans would get bored easy if the characters aren't talking every 2 minutes.

[neatoman]

So a pleasant surprise for me, turns out at least one theater in Stockholm is showing this movie. As far as I can tell, this is the first Dragon Ball movie (with the probable exception of Evolution but who the hell even counts that as part of the official DB franchise anyway?) to get a theatrical release.

Fun fact, while the original Dragon Ball manga has a full Swedish translation, the TV shows have never gotten dubbed or even aired in Sweden. Some of the movies got released on DVD but that's it.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by neatoman

So a pleasant surprise for me, turns out at least one theater in Stockholm is showing this movie. As far as I can tell, this is the first Dragon Ball movie (with the probable exception of Evolution but who the hell even counts that as part of the official DB franchise anyway?) to get a theatrical release.

Fun fact, while the original Dragon Ball manga has a full Swedish translation, the TV shows have never gotten dubbed or even aired in Sweden. Some of the movies got released on DVD but that's it.

Man, your country has it rough! I say Universal Healthcare isn't complete without ready, legal access to Dragon Ball episodes!

[lonewarrior20]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Spoiler:

Cell Max didn't seem to have much in the way of "cellular regeneration." After a major attack, he loses an arm for the remainder of the fight, which helps turn the tide for the heroes. His death was perfectly satisfying but I felt the original Perfect Cell was WAY trickier to kill because he could regenerate fully from any functioning cells. OG Cell's head wasn't an exploitable weakness at all.

just saw it in theater and loved it.

Spoiler:

if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

just saw it in theater and loved it.

Spoiler:

if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

Since I primarily watched the Funimation TV dub, I don't remember, but I always had it in my brain, Dr. Gero created Cell with Piccolo's DNA from the start.

Also, courtesy of Team Four Star:

Spoiler:

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by lonewarrior20

just saw it in theater and loved it.

Spoiler:

if i recall future cell only got that upgrade after draining piccolos arm and they only had dr. gero's notes and early data to make cell max.

Spoiler:

Ah no, Cell could do it, he just didn't know he could til Piccolo showed him, inadvertently of course

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Also, courtesy of Team Four Star:

Spoiler:

http://i.imgur.com/hwxOR1wh.jpg

Spoiler:

To be fair, we didn't see Piccolo do that til the Buu Saga.

Also I'm assuming Cell Max just wasn't finished or whatever. Not only can he not (or doesn't know he can) regenerate, he also have the extra weak spot on his head.

[ChosenOne]

Spoiler:

It's explicitly stated in the movie that Cell Max is unfinished and effectively mindless. It's possible he already had Piccolo's regen, along with the whole suite of the cast's signature techniques, but simply couldn't pull off the required conscious effort to grow his arm back. Also, the weak spot is said to be a built-in safety mechanism in case he gets out of control.

[oldmanwinters]

Saw the subtitled version today, and it made a few things more clear:

Spoiler:

Cell Max seems to be powered by seven color-coded sources. Could each one be a different dna input?

He probably does have cellular regeneration ability but the failsafe head weakness is engineered to make an explosion that even his cells can’t survive.

The framed portraits on Magenta’s desk suggest he’s the love child of Commander Red and Colonel Violet… makes sense!

Gero mated/married Vomi. I need to dig deeper into Dragonball Fighterz. Wonder if we will learn about their mysterious other child one day.

Piccolo seems to be unaware of what “poop” is, which O think ties into the earlier joke about how he doesn’t eat. Honestly, I never knew that. I was thinking Gamma 2 should have tried hitting him where the sun don’t shine, but maybe that would have been pointless too.

The English dub suggests the Red Ribbon army could have been stopped with a wish from Shenron but it was never brought up in the original, the only regret being they did not think to transport Goku and Vegeta to earth.

The English dub gives Piccolo a line about never earning his license, an apparent callback to the infamous filler episode that got a laugh out of my theater. Not a reference in the Jap version, so it seemed.

I got the sense Beerus wasn’t quite as horny as suggested in the English dub. Maybe his attraction is more for the sake of aesthetic beauty?

I was still not sure why 18 was comically pushing around Krillin at the very end. Not sure if it was a lover’s game or some background dialogue the subtitles did not pick up on.

I am as confused as Piccolo why Gohan could not recognize him in disguise when Pan could.

Seeing/Hearing the film in the original language is about the most Japanese thing I have ever experienced.

Edit: I call bull on

Spoiler:

Goku not understanding then dismissing Vegeta’s mental training. Goku REPEATEDLY studied that same discipline in OG Dragonball with Korin, Popo & Kami. It was a major plot point that he reduce his unnecessary movements to increase his focus to overcome Mercenary Tao and then Piccolo. Goku meditated a ton in DB and probably parts of DBZ I have forgotten about. Maybe he was really knew what Vegeta was up to and was just trying to test his commitment?

Edit x2:

Spoiler:

Vegeta deserves to feel elated after ANY small victory over Goku, the fact is that he has never outright lost an on-screen fight against him. So he holds a perfect head-to-head record, in my book.

[Anarchistguy]

Originally Posted by oldmanwinters

Oh, sure, but Funimation could also give the character more dialogue, as they have done in the past with characters doing voice overs from off-screen, such as commenting on a fight.

They stopped doing that When Dragon Ball Kai came to North America and actually started translating the script instead of localising it to make it sound cool to a five year old.

[oldmanwinters]

So it just now hit me that the movie makes a big deal out of Pan's struggle learning to fly. And yet, she has been doing it effortlessly as a baby throughout the Super anime.

Even (light) space travel.

Is there a Manga vs. Anime discrepancy that the movie is choosing to favor/ignore?

[Vegita-San]

maybe it's a skill you loose the more brain you gain. and you have to re learn it all over again.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

maybe it's a skill you loose the more brain you gain. and you have to re learn it all over again.

I guess baby Gohan kinda-sorta pulled it off at least once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wetKxaxCvdY

I don't even recall when he learned to fly permanently.

EDIT: I am still amused that Master Roshi got selected to fight in the Tournament of Power arc (and did well enough to earn Beerus' respect) and yet he probably refuses to learn flight out of spite against Shen and the Crane School.

[neatoman]

Alright, so the Manga version of the story just concluded and it has this page:

Spoiler:

So I'm guessing the Red Ribbon army will continue to be recurring villains in the series? The movie doesn't imply they're still around but it doesn't state that it's the end of them either, so maybe a scene like this was planned but ultimately cut?