Does Peter Laird regret selling to Viacom?

[Monty Mole]

I know Peter Laird doesn't regret selling the rights, he clearly wanted to retire. But had he been offered the same amount of money from other companies like Sony, Warner Bros or 20th Century Fox, would he have still chosen Viacom?

[Leo656]

I'm pretty sure he said in the past that one or more of those companies did in fact express some interest at various points, but the offer they made was insultingly low. Laird was more than willing to sell to pretty much any company that hit the magic number he had set for himself, it just so happened that Nick/Viacom was the only one to come close.

Laird wanted out of the TMNT business but he didn't want to take a lowball offer. Otherwise, he didn't care who bought it or what they did with it, he'd already made up his mind that he wouldn't be watching to see what happened regardless. If WB for example had offered as much or more, they would have gotten it instead.

I don't think he regrets selling to Viacom, so much as seeing them make back triple or more what they paid for the brand in less than two years probably makes him regret that "great deal" he took, just a little. But it's partly his own fault, he did almost nothing substantial with the brand for years and was notoriously difficult to deal with, so the TMNT projects he oversaw in the market underperformed, there was little interest in exploiting the property for movies, cartoons, comics etc. and the brand's market value was subsequently less. In his own head, though, he probably wishes he'd held out for more, because he definitely sold out for a pittance compared to what Viacom made off of it almost immediately. I hate all of the Nick-branded TMNT stuff but if nothing else the brand is much more high-profile and bringing in much more money now than it was when Laird was pushing it. He wasn't very good at marketing and generating publicity and I don't think he ever really cared to prioritize that, but in the end it bit him in the ass because in the end he STILL took a relative bath on the deal. I mean, it's more money than most people will ever see and I'm sure he's reasonably happy, but that had to sting seeing how much he potentially COULD have had if he was a more savvy businessman.

[Andrew NDB]

And again, not to suggest TMNT is the same as Star Wars (though maybe at the height of Turtlemania... kind of close in terms of general popularity and toy sales and all?), but George Lucas made 4 billion for selling Star Wars and Peter Laird only made 60 million for selling TMNT. Obviously TMNT wasn't worth 4 billion... but like 1? 1.5, maybe? Not 60 million.

[Leo656]

Makes you wonder what the WB (it was WB, I think? Or was it Disney?) offer he turned down was. Like what, ten million?

I like to imagine he asked for more, then WB (or whoever) looked at the box office gross of the 2007 TMNT movie and just sent him an email that said "L-O-L" and nothing else.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I like to imagine he asked for more, then WB (or whoever) looked at the box office gross of the 2007 TMNT movie and just sent him an email that said "L-O-L" and nothing else.

Yeaahhh... that 2007 movie definitely didn't do Laird any favors, especially if he was looking to make a deal. For all we know even he was like, "Damn... a new TMNT movie in 2007 barely made any money? Might as well sell now before things depreciate even more."

Crazy to see that the budget of the 2007 movie was more than the combined budgets of TMNT (1990) and TMNT II: SotO. And the 2007 movie was considered a "cheap" thing.

[Leo656]

Oh yeah, I'm sure the movie's under-performance was a huge factor in his decision. He probably felt based on evidence that the brand had hit its ceiling and there wasn't anything to really be done to further exploit it. Why hang onto it, at that point, when at best your attempts to exploit the property break even and more often than not you're losing money?

As much as I hate everything that's come out since the sale, Viacom proved that with proper marketing the brand could still be high-profile and profitable. Granted, all of that money is being made by pandering to the lowest common denominator and the products are bad, BUT people are aware that TMNT still exists, which they mostly were not aware of in 2008.

He needed a PR firm or a "brand manager" or something. I know he was notoriously critical and hands-on about how the brand was used, but seeing just how MUCH money was metaphorically left on the table one can't help but think that maybe he should have loosened those reigns just a little bit. And at the very least he could have done a much better job over the years of raising brand awareness. They had a cartoon on the air for the better part of a decade that most people didn't even know existed, and a movie that people didn't know was out even as it was in theaters. That's just plain bad marketing.

[Andrew NDB]

See, I'm torn on that aspect of things. I totally respect and like that he was only approving cartoons and movies that weren't horrible on paper. And keep in mind, that's the important part -- he was only approving cartoons and movies that weren't horrible on paper. He didn't craft the 2003 cartoon, or the 2007 movie, nor was he ponying up money to get these things made. Sure he had notes and whatnot, and definitely some hand in guiding the 2003 cartoon, but he was only giving his blessing to the least sh**ty things being floated around. Maybe amongst those pitches for a new cartoon, was there one for a big mutants everywhere/Bebop/Rocksteady/Technodrome extravaganza that would have made 2012 money? Probably. Though I'm not even sure the 2012 series did significantly higher numbers than the 2003 series in either ratings or toys. I notice that 2012 has vanished from view the same way 2003 did, and Viacom has invested interest in 2012. And if your adult friends didn't know 2003 was airing that's hardly neither nor there. The kids of the chicks I was dating back then certainly were super into it! I think Laird's greatest achievements between consolidating the rights in 2000 up until the sale to Viacom in 2009 was just saying "no" to so many terrible TMNT things that would have marred things so much earlier.

What I DO agree with is Laird maybe not handling the comics side of things the best. And he's openly admitted this himself. Marketing, distribution, the hype, everything. If he didn't want to be that guy then he maybe should have appointed a guy to do that. Should have been a huge PR push when, say, Tales V2 came out. And it should have been in color and there should have been a big stink about it everywhere. Vol. 4, whatever, that was basically his sandbox and I respect that. But could he have afforded, say, Tristan Jones and those guys to do some kind of focused, ongoing "Gang Wars"-style series in also modern color with hard-hitting stories and such and had a PR team similarly get the word out appropriately? Absolutely.

[AquaParade]

I wonder if, deep down, there was a notion that selling the brand was the only way to keep it alive. Like sending Kal-El off of Krypton in a little ship, before he dies with his creators.

I think Laird was clearly exhausted with TMNT… but I also imagine it can be sort of sad to think your life’s work is just going to sputter out and die before you do. At least when you’ve invested so much and seen it get so big.

I wonder if that made it easier for him to sell. The idea that it might be the only thing that keeps tmnt going.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Oh yeah, I'm sure the movie's under-performance was a huge factor in his decision. He probably felt based on evidence that the brand had hit its ceiling and there wasn't anything to really be done to further exploit it. Why hang onto it, at that point, when at best your attempts to exploit the property break even and more often than not you're losing money?

As much as I hate everything that's come out since the sale, Viacom proved that with proper marketing the brand could still be high-profile and profitable. Granted, all of that money is being made by pandering to the lowest common denominator and the products are bad, BUT people are aware that TMNT still exists, which they mostly were not aware of in 2008.

What poor TMNT product are Nick profiting my on, by selling to the lowest common denominator?

All the crappy products they’ve been involved in have flopped, like Rise… and the PD films.

The comics and toys are pulling in more money than they have in decades, with solid products. Video games too.

TLR
Shredder’s Revenge
Neca & Super7 figures.

These avenues are all expanding. Some people here (you, to be fair) claimed TLR would be lucky to get a spin-off. Well, six months later, we already know of two spin-offs, and it’s own toy-line.

Shredder’s Revenge and Cowabunga Collection sold so well that a AAA game has been confirmed to be in development.

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately. At this point, I won’t be surprised if the Rogen movie is decent. Obviously it’s not the direction I’d take a TMNT movie but the quality assurance has been good on TMNT stuff lately.

A brand like He-Man would be lucky to have this much good stuff right now.

[oldmanwinters]

I know TMNT had basically entered a second hibernation period around 2008-2009 and the entire 25th Anniversary Shell-A-Bration tour was surely a business decision to court potential suitors to be the franchise's next owner, but even when the news broke of the sale to Viacom, I figured TMNT would be worth at least $100 million. Was it ever made clear if the $60 million was the "after tax" money?

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

A brand like He-Man would be lucky to have this much good stuff right now.

You have a real complex about this, don't ya? Like you REALLY can't stand that I like MOTU a lot more than TMNT and you have to constantly bring it up to try and antagonize me. Like Sumac with DC movies, or Cure was with Everything Always. It's f*cking weird when people do that.

But aaaaanyways, TMNT has some cool overpriced toys and a couple of nostalgia-bait video games sold well. Good! Every other thing that's come out since the Viacom sale has been awful, I'unno what you want me to do, lie? Because IDW produces some comics that are more suitable for toilet paper I'm supposed to be impressed by the brand's post-sale performance? C'mon. I mean, you're gonna keep throwing Last Ronin at me until the end of time despite that thing being the most "Just Okay, I Guess" thing to ever get such a hero's welcome. It's NOT great, buddy! It SEEMS great because the other IDW TMNT comics are absolute trash-tier; if even one other actually good TMNT comic were out on the market otherwise, people wouldn't be jerking off to that thing so hard. It's JUST okay. Not "great", and I'd argue not even all that "good" unless you're REALLY starved for "True TMNT" content. Which I guess most people are. And overrating mediocrity is kind of a habit with this franchise's fanbase, I admit, but still. Let's not over-sell something that's Just Okay and treat it like the Second Coming; it isn't.

"Ohhhhhh they're gonna do a sequel TLR series with some FAKE TMNT!" Sounds awful, can't wait! C'mon. Caaaaaaaamaaaaaaaan, wit dis!

Also, the brand can't even support a retail toy line at present and thus have to resort to third-party licensing agreements with brands like NECA making overpriced "boutique" items for a buyer's market of a few thousand people. That'll probably change one day again, sure, but I'm not overly impressed by how well they're doing among the Niche Hipster Market or whatever. They haven't had a profitable retail-first line in a decade, because the brand's been handled so poorly there's no market or audience for one. Sure, a lot of that is because Playmates is awful and nobody wants their junk, but at the same time if Playmates saw money in that space, they'd be in there and not keep letting companies like Mattel eat their lunch.

Quality Over Quantity and frankly, none of the money goes into my pocket so I don't really care. But aside from the "boutique" toys for rich hipsters and reheated video games from 30 years ago, Every Other TMNT Thing Right Now Is Trash. Those toys and those games are the PEAK of a decade's worth of work since the sale. Yay? Like, that's the best they can do, that's great. Like I keep saying, if that's the "best" the brand can come up with they ought'a just stop or focus JUST on those things and nothing else.

But I mean, we clearly have vastly different opinions on what "doing well" means. I'm with Andrew in that having a ton of BAD stuff all being produced isn't exactly indicative of "health" just because it generates a lot of short-term profits. You clearly think otherwise, since you cite the comics and stuff as a source of pride even though they're bad. "At least they exist, and at least they make money, so that's great!" Well, that's the attitude that's turned this brand into such a f*cking joke in the first place, the idea that so long as they keep pumping sh*t out, it doesn't matter that it's all crap and we should celebrate.

Well, go ahead and be happy I guess. I concede that the toys and games are fine to have but there's nothing at all else to be happy about. AND, to reiterate just for the record's sake, the brand can't even sustain a mainstream retail toy line and hasn't been able to for quite a while. When you compare that to a brand with THREE successful retail toy lines going on at once you just look petty and silly. If you'd like a straw just ask, don't grasp.

I mean, I get the point you're trying to make. "They're making some products, and that's great!"

Well, to counter, my feelings are, "Most of it is garbage, so that actually isn't all that great."

It's a matter of priority and we're simply not going to agree on what's "important". You'd rather they keep pumping out dreck because some of that dreck makes people happy. Okay. I'd be more happy if there was 90% less TMNT content but it was all consistently Good. But that ship has long sailed.

Basically, you're Eastman and I'm Laird.

[ZariusTwo]

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately

How it's going...

Originally Posted by AquaParade

All the crappy products they’ve been involved in have flopped, like Rise… and the PD films.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

You have a real complex about this, don't ya? Like you REALLY can't stand that I like MOTU a lot more than TMNT and you have to constantly bring it up to try and antagonize me. Like Sumac with DC movies, or Cure was with Everything Always. It's f*cking weird when people do that.

No, I just find it amusing because it irritates you, while you are happy to spend your days on a TMNT board going off on how dumb tmnt and it's fans are. Literally the people surrounding you.

And then someone, on a non-He-Man forum, mind you, critiques the He-Man franchise and you have a 6-paragraph meltdown.

It's goddamn funny.

Has nothing to do with me being "angry that you like He-Man more than TMNT", as hilarious as that implication is.

In fact, it has nothing to do with He-Man at all! I know nothing about it, other then Skeletor is one of the most bad-ass, albeit ridiculous, characters I've ever seen created for wee children. I actually think a Zack Snyder - He-Man reimagining could be super cool, based on visuals.

Truly, I was just making a point, and it went off with flying colors. I admit it was pretty troll-like behavior, but sometimes holding a mirror up is the best way to make a point.
In my defense, I didn't think it'd work that well.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

How it's going...

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately - from toys, to videogames, to comics. It's been a great couple years.

In contrast to their crappy products, from previous years - Rise... and the PD films - which fell flat on their face.

I think you might be confused, sorry.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Nick is doing a great job overseeing the brand lately - from toys, to videogames, to comics. It's been a great couple years.

And Nick has nothing to do with the comics. If there are new TMNT comics you like, Nick's biggest achievement is just not saying "no" to them.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedMix...restricted.gif

And Nick has nothing to do with the comics. If there are new TMNT comics you like, Nick's biggest achievement is just not saying "no" to them.

Wrong.
Nick does have something to do with the comics. They have to approve of them, along with Viacom. If Nick says "no" to The Last Ronin, then it doesn't happen. But if you want to replace "Nick" with "Viacom" then fair enough. Giving the greenlight to projects is precisely what "overseeing the brand" is lol.

And have fun arguing against TMNT entering the New York Times Best Seller list, selling a million copies of a videogame shortly after launch, and being one of the hottest adult-collector markets around, not making for a great couple of years for the franchise.

Business-wise, you're going to make a clown of yourself, and creatively, it's still hard to argue against.

Is it everything I want? No. Not at all. But I'm not going to argue against obvious success, especially when they are finally making clear attempts to reach fans of all ages.


Sorry, but TMNT having a great year isn't about Andrew getting what he wants. The property is making truck-loads of money, and creatively, it's ranging from comics that go straight back to the roots of the franchise to videogames that mix nostalgia-bate with modern game design. And again, the toys are flying off shelves and websites as soon as they hit.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Wrong. Nick does have something to do with the comics. They have to approve of them, along with Viacom. If Nick says "no" to The Last Ronin, then it doesn't happen. But if you want to replace "Nick" with "Viacom" then fair enough. Giving the greenlight to projects is precisely what "overseeing the brand" is lol.

And have fun arguing against TMNT entering the New York Times Best Seller list, selling a million copies of a videogame shortly after launch, and being one of the hottest adult-collector markets around, not making for a great couple of years for the franchise.

Business-wise, you're going to make a clown of yourself, and creatively, it's still hard to argue against.


Sorry, but TMNT having a great year isn't about Andrew getting what he wants. The property is making truck-loads of money, and creatively, it's ranging from comics that go straight back to the roots of the franchise to videogames that mix nostalgia-bate with modern game design. And again, the toys are flying off shelves and websites as soon as they hit.

Wrong. And what I want? What are you talking about? While I might snicker at it from time to time, I've been pretty clear I'm apathetic to TMNT in the corporate sphere. Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I reassert, Nick has nothing to do with the comics. Beyond sticky notes that don't say "you can't do that." IDW approached Nick and licensed TMNT, same as you might get new socks on the shelves with Bebop on them because a sock company approached Nick for a license. Great job on those Bebop socks, Nickelodeon! Eh, no, that's not the way any of this works. It isn't like IDW is an arm of Nick's, reflective of their overall vision for the TMNT. That's a delusion and your own cross to bear, sir.

And videogames! Wow, what a great job, Nickelodeon! Brilliance personified in simply allowing Konami to re-release their TMNT games from 30 years ago and taking money from another company to do a quasi-sequel to them. What cunning and planning!

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Wrong. And what I want? What are you talking about? I'm apathetic to TMNT in the corporate sphere. Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I reassert, Nick has nothing to do with the comics. Beyond sticky notes that don't say "you can't do that." IDW approached Nick and licensed TMNT, same as you might get new socks with Bebop on them because a sock company approached Nick for a license. Great job on those Bebop socks, Nickelodeon! Eh, no. It isn't like IDW is an arm of Nick's, reflective of their overall vision for the TMNT. That's a delusion and your own cross to bear, sir.

You seem to be making two arguments:

1. Nick/Viacom are not responsible for the success of the brand.

2. The brand is not having a great few years (this is both objective and subjective, depending on whether we mean financially or creatively).



Do you understand what "overseeing the brand" means?

Nick/Viacom approving or disapproving what types of comics are allowed to be made is overseeing the brand.

We aren't even talking about IDW having final say. If Nick says TMNT don't kill, then TMNT don't kill. It's not up to IDW, it's not up to Kevin.

If Kevin wants to make a TMNT comic, that goes back to the roots of the franchise, involving turtles who were literally raised to kill, and do it in bloody-fashion, right on the page...then Nick/Viacom have to approve of that.
Which is something they were previously not willing to do.

If a game-developer or publisher wants to make a TMNT side-scrolling game, that goes on to sell millions of copies, Nick/Viacom have to approve that, or actually reach out to make it happen.

It's up to the people who - say it with me - "oversee the brand" - those who greenlight, those who get to choose which projects do or don't come out, and - yes - those who give sticky notes saying "yes" or "no". Ultimately, they are the ones who control the direction of the brand.


If the franchise is making a ton of money and pleasing various pockets of fan groups at once, then yeah, they most certainly have something to do with it. What on earth are you doing implying otherwise?



Oddly, you act like I am implying Nickelodeon is down in the trenches with Kevin Eastman, inking every last page, or writing code at 2:00 am for the latest game.

A better comparison is Peter Laird, once Eastman was out of the picture, or even Nick, when they first acquired the brand -

How were the toys?

Then: Crappy toys from Playmates, way past their prime.

Now: Amazing figures from Neca, Super7, you name it. There are like seven turtle vans, Mirage figures, FW toys, etc.
There is so much great competition, that even Playmates has been forced to step up their game, to compete.



How were the comics under Laird and the first few years of Viacom owning the brand?

Then: Volume 4 and Tales were mediocre and sold poorly. IDW's initial run received positive reception but felt neutered to returning TMNT comics fans (mixed bag, leaning positive).

Now: TMNT is officially on the "New York Times Best Seller" list and has a comic that caters to older fans, and actually feels like the product every one fell in love with in the first place. TMNT is actually "cool" again in the comic book community, for the first time in decades, which is going to continue to bare fruit.


How were the videogames?

They've been poorly received since the SNES area up until, what, a few months ago?

Their two games just became two of this year's best-sellers and received rave reviews.
At the end of your post, you are mocking the idea that Nick/Viacom found great success in selling millions of copies of a videogame and receiving awesome reviews?
The sarcasm you are using there makes you sound completely dense, man. It's like, uh, yeah - great job to Nick and Viacom there - damn straight lol. It's like you want to discredit them for not making the game themselves, which is utterly bizarre because that's not their job.



You act like it doesn't matter who oversees the brand and the parent companies deserve no credit. That's ridiculous. They deserve the credit now, just as much as they deserved the blame for allowing an awful sequel to the PD films to go foward, or for greenlighting Rise...(whether we like that show or not, it failed, and a fair amount of that is on Nick/Viacom).

Creatively, you might have an argument that the brand isn't in good shape, although you did play Shredder's Revenge and seem to appreciate those Neca Mirage figures. In terms of business? Just, no.

[Roseangelo]

TMNT is very stagnant right now. I'm not sure how a couple a video game releases means it's doing awesome.

There's going to be a "meh" at best movie next year, and Playmates will make horrible toys for it. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I actually think a Zack Snyder - He-Man reimagining could be super cool, based on visuals.

Stop trying to give me erections ya weirdo.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Or McTMNT™, I should say.

I'm Lovin' this.