Is there a "toxicity" in this fandom?

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

When I first joined the board in 2007 and voiced right away that maybe the 2007 was kind of sucky just about everyone and their mom blasted me for not worshipping at the altar of the Latest Turtle Product™. Then a few months went by and everyone kind of turned around and went, "Eh. I guess it kind of was, wasn't it?" and things returned to normal.

Oh, that’s a big relief. I’m not the only one who thinks that the 2007 film is overrated.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

Oh, that’s a big relief. I’m not the only one who thinks that the 2007 film is overrated.

It only looks like Shakespeare when you hold it up against 2014 or 2016. As I've said, 2007 is easily the best sequel out there and nothing can really take that away from it. However, that said... it's also not saying very much at all.

[neatoman]

Not gonna pretend the 2007 movie is amazing... But it's probably the second best TMNT movie ever made and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future... So... You know...

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Not gonna pretend the 2007 movie is amazing... But it's probably the second best TMNT movie ever made and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future... So... You know...

I get more enjoyment from Secret of the Ooze than I do from 2007, but I don't know if I could defend it as the better movie by any means. I don't know if I can defend it at all. 2007 does a lot right and is definitely respectable. I should love it but the small flaws kill it for me.

Secret of the Ooze is such a step down from the first film, and I hate it for that, but at the same time, I do find these versions of the characters fun to be around and still enjoy the general look of the film.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

It was like that everywhere in the early 2000s. Suddenly making and hosting websites was an easy thing to do and everybody was like supercharged with this kind of infectious creativity. The Drome and the rest of the pockets of fandom (TMNT-L, Mikey's TMNT, Under Manhattan, etc.) was no exception. It really was an amazing time to be a part of.

True. I remember a fan-comic that was being worked on for a while, called "Ultimate TMNT", which was supposed to be in the vein of the Ultimate universe Marvel comics, which were booming.

Then slightly more recently was the Mirage comics recreations where members would sign up to draw a page. That was fun. Unless I dreamt it. Pretty sure that happened for a couple issues.

And of course the projects you spearheaded.

[CyberCubed]

I think the reason the newer TMNT incarnations are more experimental is everything has been "done" already.

For example we started with Mirage and then the original cartoon and both series were fairly distinct, with the first 3 live-action movies being a mix of elements and the Archie Adventures comics.

2k3 adapted Mirage storylines and changed things for its own universe, but Peter Laird refused to let the writers use any Fred Wolf characters so Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and all the other mutants were kept out of this series.

So then when IDW and the 2012 Nick cartoon started, we finally got two new series that were able to bring in characters from any universe and mix them all together. So IDW uses Mirage, original cartoon, 2k3 characters, so did the Nick 2012 cartoon for the most part. And so things were no longer separate.

However now all of that is "done," so we then got Rise of the TMNT which tried to do its own thing, followed by whatever this upcoming movie is. So we're moving further and further away from what TMNT is about because they don't want to re-do what has been done a bunch of times already.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Then a few months went by and everyone kind of turned around and went, "Eh. I guess it kind of was, wasn't it?" and things returned to normal. What's different now is that the sucky stuff comes out, people watch it, and a lot of them never have that realization and never return to normal. Because we're down to like the craziest, nuttiest of the fandom remotely in our age bracket still.

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

Oh, that’s a big relief. I’m not the only one who thinks that the 2007 film is overrated.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

However now all of that is "done," so we then got Rise of the TMNT which tried to do its own thing, followed by whatever this upcoming movie is. So we're moving further and further away from what TMNT is about because they don't want to re-do what has been done a bunch of times already.

I thought the 2007 movie was pretty entertaining and I liked the animation style. If you sort of digest that movie as "just another Turtle adventure on film" then it's fun. But as a franchise re-launcher? Obviously not.

It's like Star Trek: Insurrection. It's a great movie as a Star Trek morality play with some fun visuals. But it's hardly a deeply cinematic Trek - more like a 2.5 hour episode of the show.

Obviously all of this stuff is tied to how deeply woven we are into an I.P. Iron Man 3 drove me nuts. Star Trek: Picard drove me nuts. TMNT '07? It was fun.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by IMJ

I wish I could agree with this, but hands-down this is the most toxic fandom I've ever seen.

Ever heard of Sonic the Hedgehog?

[Cowabung-Gal]

2007 TMNT didn’t feel like a sequel to TMNT 3, more like a continuation of the Mirage comics. They made Raph a total d*** and Mikey a complete joke, it focused too much on Raph and Leo’s love-hate relationship, the ancient monsters plot bored me, and the designs and animation were…well, weird.

Although I did laugh at the scene where Donnie was working as an IT specialist.

“I'm just Donnie, your friendly IT tech support here to help you 24-hours a day, sir.”



“Yeah, I’m sorry. Ma’am.”

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

Ever heard of Sonic the Hedgehog?

Now that you've said this, knowing what I know here about people who are into animals and the kind of things that cultivates I can actually extrapolate and imagine......

OMG.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

They made Raph a total d***

That's literally his character in most versions. He's like Wolverine.

[Papenbrook]

Honestly, if TMNT were to originate today, the fanbase would be comparable to that of modern shounen fandom.

Dudebros would measure and rank every characters' power levels/abilities, and then see who could defeat who. Shippers would try to pair as much of the cast as possible, even if certain characters are incompatible with each other. Fanatics would be obsessed with a specific character, and would try to center their entire personality on said fascination. Critics would criticize everything about the narrative/franchise, no matter how miniscule or enormous the issue is.

It … would just spiral into complete absurdity. At that point, the fandom … would become incomprehensible.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

That's literally his character in most versions. He's like Wolverine.

Nah, the closest we got to a Wolverine-esque Raph was in the Mirage comics and The Last Ronin due to all the bloodbaths.

2003 Raph didn’t kill people, 2012 Raph was a hothead but not a d*** (yes there is a difference) and he didn’t kill either, and neither of those versions drank, smoked, or even so much as cussed (although 2012 Raph almost did before he was cut off by Donnie).

Of course Rise Raph is not even remotely close since he’s a Mama Bear and a softie, and neither is Fred Wolf Raph since he’s just a wisecracking comedian.

IDW Raph does have anger issues but like his 2012 counterpart he has a big heart and can be tender at times. Image Raph…well, he wasn’t that much different from his brothers to be honest, save for the pizza face (hey, look, I made a TMNT pun, lol).

I’m not even gonna talk about Next Mutation Raph, ugh…

So what is 2007 Raph? A stubborn punk who just didn’t want to take orders from anybody. But he’s no Wolverine.

[Coola Yagami]

It's too bad the Mirage stuff stopped so new material can be adapted or homaged.

We also got the Leo beat up by the Foot, they escape to Northampton and come back to take down Shredder story a few times. We got (weak) versions of City at War and the Renet and Triceraton/Fugitoid stories have also been done.

I think one thing that would be interesting is a dark edgy animated movie based on Volume 3 with all the mutilations. That would be cool and it's something that hasn't been replicated or homaged due to lack of rights and lack of balls to portray them with more violent adventures and situations.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Cowabung-Gal

Nah, the closest we got to a Wolverine-esque Raph was in the Mirage comics and The Last Ronin due to all the bloodbaths.

2003 Raph didn’t kill people, 2012 Raph was a hothead but not a d*** (yes there is a difference) and he didn’t kill either, and neither of those versions drank, smoked, or even so much as cussed (although 2012 Raph almost did before he was cut off by Donnie).

Of course Rise Raph is not even remotely close since he’s a Mama Bear and a softie, and neither is Fred Wolf Raph since he’s just a wisecracking comedian.

IDW Raph does have anger issues but like his 2012 counterpart he has a big heart and can be tender at times. Image Raph…well, he wasn’t that much different from his brothers to be honest, save for the pizza face (hey, look, I made a TMNT pun, lol).

I’m not even gonna talk about Next Mutation Raph, ugh…

So what is 2007 Raph? A stubborn punk who just didn’t want to take orders from anybody. But he’s no Wolverine.

I meant in a sense where it's not considered out of character. Obviously, the non-Mirage versions are not as violent but still pretty violent. Not every version of Raph needs to be exactly the same and it's not like he really wants to take orders from Leo but more that he has to, at times. It just shows how each version of him handles his temper but to me, never to the point of "that's not Raph."

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

It's too bad the Mirage stuff stopped so new material can be adapted or homaged.

We also got the Leo beat up by the Foot, they escape to Northampton and come back to take down Shredder story a few times. We got (weak) versions of City at War and the Renet and Triceraton/Fugitoid stories have also been done.

I think one thing that would be interesting is a dark edgy animated movie based on Volume 3 with all the mutilations. That would be cool and it's something that hasn't been replicated or homaged due to lack of rights and lack of balls to portray them with more violent adventures and situations.

An animated version of the Image comics would be so much fun. I can critique that series all day but at the same time, it’s such a blast. In regards to animated adaptions, that’d be the biggest breath of fresh air for TMNT. I’d love to see the reactions.

[CyberCubed]

I'm surprised TMNT is not more popular with anime fans. We have a team of 4 heroes with different personalities battling evil ninjas and both Splinter and Shredder's origins come from Japan. Like if you didn't know TMNT was created by Americans you'd think it was based on every anime trope out there. The Turtles personalities are in line with every anime character out there, even comparable to magical girls and Shonen heroes.

The only difference is there are no power levels in TMNT, meaning the Turtles never actually increase in strength over the different series and the villains can always be beaten no matter what point of the timeline they are.

[AquaParade]

Well maybe TLR will catch on with all the modern manga readers that are supposedly out there. Manga is outselling American comics so hard it’s not even funny. Frankly, it reveals how poorly managed “the big 2” are.

But TLR is probably being sold in bookstores everywhere, alongside the giant manga isles. Could be that some of the sales have been boosted by manga readers.

That said, manga readers aren’t all Japanese, obviously. Manga is huge in America right now. But you know, it’s a Japanese medium, so the sensibilities are what I’m referring to.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah I'm just saying in various anime communities online, TMNT doesn't seem to be very popular. Most people these days also grew up after the original fad of TMNT ended in the mid-90's so they grew up with Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z and then moved onto other anime after that.

Most of the kids who watched the 2k3 series and Nick 2012 cartoon seemed to move on as soon as they ended rather than stick with the franchise as well.

[Vegeta]

There's just no crossover with older audiences with Nick TMNT or rise and the PD films weren't for anybody. Stuff like dbz Naruto and chainsaw man can be enjoyed by a variety of ages while these shows can't be usually. As an adult I can go back and watch cowboy bebop, watching the TMNT 2003 show even is pretty intolerable with the voice acting. It's the curse of the success of the FW toon and it being permanently thought of as a juvenile joke. Hopefully a few idw arcs or last ronin can get a well animated project or film as that goes beyond the 10 year old market. That's what's kept me interested in and off anyway, the variety of artists and comics. Anime fans tend to just be lifers once they like something, a highly flawed borderline intolerably bad after the first arc franchise like Sword Art Online has a permanently rabid fan base, TMNT doesn't really play into the modern weeb terminally online socially isolated market, different gens.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Vegeta

There's just no crossover with older audiences with Nick TMNT or rise and the PD films weren't for anybody.

The 2012 cartoon was incredibly popular with original fans and was on this forum when it was airing.