Casey Jones Spinoff, Annual 2025 and Peter Laird's return

[ToTheNines]

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Of course, following continuity doesn't actually qualify it for canon status either, most pre-Disney Star Wars material outside of the movies do follow continuity and the major snags were often corrected but it was still declared non-canon when Disney stepped in. Hell, I'm pretty sure a lot of that stuff can technically still fit even after Disney made their own bullshit they somehow thought people would like better, but it's still not considered canon. And I'm pretty sure that until Prey, every Predator movie was written as if the first one was the only previous movie, but you likely wouldn't know unless you were told because there isn't much in terms of contradictions between these movies. Outside of the Image run, we can argue about the other guest issues as well. Did the Leo kill the embodiment of Mammal Dominance just because they talked about their previous visit to the Dinosaur Era in that story? Did Savanti really have a vengeful wife because that one story referenced the TCRI incident and the Rat King story? These could also fit but I'm not so sure it's worth it to say they do since they seemingly had no real impact going forward.

Just because you declare something to be non-canon doesn't mean you actually intend to explicitly contradict it, it just don't intend to treat it as relevant.

Sorry to keep yammering about this, but this occurred to me while mowing the lawn yesterday:

In this Star Wars analogy, I think it’s obvious to say that George Lucas, Lucasfilm, and Disney are Peter Laird, Mirage Studios, and Nickelodeon/IDW respectively.

But we know Disney threw out all the old Lucasfilm-approved EU stuff when they took over, regardless of George’s opinion. How is this any different than IDW publishing an official Image continuation that folds it back into Mirage continuity? By this logic, Peter’s opinion is simply that: an opinion.

Not saying I personally view IDW as the ultimate arbiter of Mirage canon, but they’re currently the ones in charge of any officially published reprints and continuations. So it’s kind of up to them, no?

[Zog The Magnificent]

For the most part, this is precisely why I've gotten more used to the idea of headcanon. With how often writers switch out and ownership changes hands, "canon" eventually just comes down to the opinion of whoever's in charge at the moment, and their opinion will have always been right until the next guy takes over, and then HIS opinion will have always been right and the other will have never been right by way of retcon. It has less to do with what was actually written, which is why even if Peter didn't count it, I'm fine to not take it seriously, since he didn't actually go out of his way to erase it.

At a certain point, if it's good, and it doesn't contradict anything else, you may as well take it as canon and enjoy it. Which also gives you license to ignore the crappy parts of things, like the Sequel Trilogy, the 4th Kung Fu Panda movie, or 5th Indiana Jones movies, just to name a few.

[frank_one]

For a lot of us the canon ended around 2009 when the property was sold.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

For the most part, this is precisely why I've gotten more used to the idea of headcanon. With how often writers switch out and ownership changes hands, "canon" eventually just comes down to the opinion of whoever's in charge at the moment, and their opinion will have always been right until the next guy takes over, and then HIS opinion will have always been right and the other will have never been right by way of retcon. It has less to do with what was actually written, which is why even if Peter didn't count it, I'm fine to not take it seriously, since he didn't actually go out of his way to erase it.

At a certain point, if it's good, and it doesn't contradict anything else, you may as well take it as canon and enjoy it. Which also gives you license to ignore the crappy parts of things, like the Sequel Trilogy, the 4th Kung Fu Panda movie, or 5th Indiana Jones movies, just to name a few.

Very well said, completely agree. TMNT has always been different than your average long running Marvel/DC book, but I get what you’re saying. And this axiom does apply to the volume 3/volume 4 situation.

Again: “canon” isn’t real, so you might as well make it what you want it to be lol.

I don’t care what Disney says. The Genndy Clone Wars series is what happened between II and III, despite the Greivous voice thing.

Originally Posted by frank_one

For a lot of us the canon ended around 2009 when the property was sold.

That’s a little unfair. Mirage published Tales until 2010 and Peter trickled some Volume 4 issues out.

And IDW has given us some cool short stories in the 30th and 40th anniversary comics.

[Wentos]

Originally Posted by frank_one

For a lot of us the canon ended around 2009 when the property was sold.

I'll do you one better; the canon ended when Eastman and Laird stopped working on the book together. TMNT was a collaborative effort between the two of them and without them, it's not the original turtles. For me, the original story ended with volume 1 (which coincidentally is the best ending the turtles have ever gotten).

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Wentos

I'll do you one better; the canon ended when Eastman and Laird stopped working on the book together. TMNT was a collaborative effort between the two of them without them, it's not the original turtles. For me, the original story ended with volume 1 (which coincidentally is the best ending the turtles have ever gotten).

Vol. 2 would count, too, then. Eastman did covers with Laird on every cover of Vol. 2.

Originally Posted by frank_one

For a lot of us the canon ended around 2009 when the property was sold.

At the time the news wasn't THAT bad. After all, Laird was very open about his 18 comics a year clause with Viacom that he retained so why, of course, wouldn't he be taking advantage of it? Now, I feared that we wouldn't see much from it (or that it would be a year or two before we saw anything from it) but I never for a moment thought that it would be nothing.

[Wentos]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Vol. 2 would count, too, then. Eastman did covers with Laird on every cover of Vol. 2.

If I recall correctly they wrote the foreword in issue #1 as well. But crucially, neither Eastman nor Laird shared writing credits on Volume 2. It was entirely Jim Lawson's baby, so as far as I'm concerned it's not part of the original canon.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Wentos

nor Laird shared writing credits on Volume 2. It was entirely Jim Lawson's baby

That's not remotely true, though Laird's writing process on Vol. 2 was admittedly unconventional. Laird would write up descriptions of what's going on for all the panels on all of the pages minus the actual dialogue or blurbs. Lawson would then draw up the pages from that with his own dialogue and blurbs and then Laird would come in with any changes or notes or substitutions.

[Wentos]

This is the first I'm hearing of this. As best I can recall there weren't any writing credits in Volume 2 itself except for Lawson. Is this something Laird mentioned in his blog?

Regardless, if Laird alone was helping Lawson it doesn't change anything. I don't consider Volume 2 canon any more than I do Volume 4.

EDIT: I went back and read the foreword in issue #1 and Laird claims he and Eastman were "co-plotting the book and overseeing it closely". Far be it from me to contradict the man himself. I suppose my personal canon ending being Volume 1 is more preference than anything I can concretely define.

[TurtleGurkle]

I'd be really curious to hear what Peter and Kevin actually worked on for volume 2. Some level of "editorial control" and "story contributions" may have taken place but they aren't actually credited with anything on volume 2 aside from the covers. Lawson even said as much in a recent interview for the new collection:

So I was brought on to do the regular TMNT title. And that’s what I did, pretty much solo for the 13 issue run of volume 2. During that time I don’t recall much, if any, editorial oversight- it was kind of amazing, if you think about it.

https://www.cbr.com/jim-lawson-teena...age-1993-1995/

[Andrew NDB]

Then it might have been just that. I'd trust Lawson. Though certainly Laird was giving basic structure. And notes. As we know he did with Tales V2 and then when he was a bit surprised at the stuff Murphy put out in Tales V2 without his purview.

And I'd doubt the Eastman closely co-plotting angle a bit. Maybe at first. Maybe some initial ideas.

[Wentos]

In my opinion, Laird's claim of closely overseeing Volume 2 with Eastman was more an assurance to the fans at the time than anything based in reality. I personally don't see much Eastman influence in Volume 2.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Wentos

I personally don't see much Eastman influence in Volume 2.

Yeah, by 1996 he was pretty disinterested in the Turtles. By 2000 he actively sold his half of the rights to Laird and didn't show any interest at all until 2009, when he heard about Peter selling everything. At which time he was SUPER interested.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Wentos

I'll do you one better; the canon ended when Eastman and Laird stopped working on the book together. TMNT was a collaborative effort between the two of them and without them, it's not the original turtles. For me, the original story ended with volume 1 (which coincidentally is the best ending the turtles have ever gotten).

Like Zog said earlier, headcanon is the way to go.

Comics, more than almost any other medium, require you to take an active role in the story telling. The reader needs to imagine the motion, action and transitions. The reader has to imagine the voices and the dialogue delivery. It’s only fair that it’s up to you to decide what counts and what doesn’t.

[Nortock Diab]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Like Zog said earlier, headcanon is the way to go.

Comics, more than almost any other medium, require you to take an active role in the story telling. The reader needs to imagine the motion, action and transitions. The reader has to imagine the voices and the dialogue delivery. It’s only fair that it’s up to you to decide what counts and what doesn’t.

I couldn't agree more with your statement.
And that's what I always loved about the Turtles. There are a lot of stories but also a lot of ellipses. The reader indeed takes an active role in the story-telling and can fill the gaps with his own imagination. If consistency and continuity have to be stretched a bit to make a story canon, so be it.

[Wentos]

I completely agree. The audience is the final collaborator in a work of art, as they say. What a work of art says to you, what it imparts to you and what you take away from it; how it changes you, that's yours and yours alone.

[Andrew NDB]

Plus the only person ever saying "this isn't canon, that isn't canon" legally doesn't have any say anymore. And IDW isn't really saying anything definitively but even if they did (and they're not), IDW themselves don't even own the TMNT. It'd be like if during Vol. 3 at Image, Erik Larsen said, "here is a list of issues of Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 from Mirage that aren't canon." It would have been laughable, even then.

[CyberCubed]

Peter Laird tired to make the original issue #8 non-canon and Jim Lawson drew an alternate story of the first meeting with Renet, then he changed his mind and kept the original #8 canon.

I don't think it really matters. Peter Laird flat out said he had no idea what was going on in the later issues of Tales V. 2 and it was just Steve Murphy approving the stories. I remember someone asked him on his blog what he thought of Leonardo kissing Renet in the future and he said he was annoyed by it and said he had no idea that even happened or else he would have put a stop to it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Peter Laird tired to make the original issue #8 non-canon and Jim Lawson drew an alternate story of the first meeting with Renet,

It was more like a Savanti Romero origin story than an alternate anything.

Peter Laird flat out said he had no idea what was going on in the later issues of Tales V. 2 and it was just Steve Murphy approving the stories. I remember someone asked him on his blog what he thought of Leonardo kissing Renet in the future and he said he was annoyed by it and said he had no idea that even happened or else he would have put a stop to it.

Yeah, that's always a good point. Where do we come down on the issues of Tales V2 that Murphy put through that Peter said he wouldn't have approved because he was busy with the Imagi movie? I've always thought the consensus from the fandom is, "Well, he DID get those through when you weren't paying attention, so that's that" but that doesn't seem too far removed from disregarding "his wishes" as to things like Vol. 3 or The River.