Were Karai and Shinigami implied to be lesbian lovers?

[CyberCubed]

A lot of the 2012 TMNT fandom believes Karai and Shinigami were lesbian lovers. Here's a few brief youtube complications from fans:





The pic attached is from the official Ice Cream Kitty video for the show too. There's also a ton of KaraixShinigami shipping fanart on places like deviantart, tumblr and twitter.

Do you feel Karai and Shinigami were implied to be lesbian lovers? I mean Ciro introduced Shinigami to be Karai's lesbian right hand, right? When they weren't on missions together or with the Turtles, Karai and Shinigami were having some real lesbo action at the Foot HQ's, right?

I truly must applaud Ciro for promoting LGBT relationships in a children's show in a mature and sophisticated manner. They are my OTP ship! Lesbian lovers unite! They were definitely some real lesbos!

[Heyowakka]

You neglected to mention the possibility of Karai and Shinjigami possibly being lesbians.

[neatoman]

I should probably point out here that Shinigami debuted about two years after The Legend of Korra ended and the show lasted a while into the era of being even more blatant about depicting same sex couples, Steven Universe's depiction of what are clearly meant to be lesbian couples as an example (although technically I think that show got away with it because they were mostly alien homunculi with somewhat androgynous features). Admittedly, it still ended just before it became commonplace but it still overlapped with that particular era.

The point is that if they wanted to have them constantly talk as if they were in a relationship all the time, and even confirm it by having them kiss in the very last episode, they probably would have been allowed to do that. Though just looking at that clip of their "moments", it's just discussing strategy and showing concern at when they get hurt. Unless that was a really bad selection of clips, I seriously doubt they intended to make them a couple.

The only ways I can imagine this ultimately being the intention, is either if someone in charge was too chicken about it for this particular show or if they simply thought they would get... Oh, I don't know, let's say at least two more seasons and a movie?

[Zog The Magnificent]

No. Any "evidence" you find is ultimately people just projecting. Next question.

[ToTheNines]

2012 Karai is kind of butch, but no. I never thought this.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Especialy when you consider that even as late as Season 5 Karai and Leo were still explicitly flirting, with Karai explicity stating "Just because I like you, doesn't mean I'll go easy on you," in the context of Raphael being sad about Mona Lisa, his romantic interest, compared against Mikey and Renet, and Leo and Karai. It's not even close.

[ticktack]

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Especialy when you consider that even as late as Season 5 Karai and Leo were still explicitly flirting, with Karai explicity stating "Just because I like you, doesn't mean I'll go easy on you," in the context of Raphael being sad about Mona Lisa, his romantic interest, compared against Mikey and Renet, and Leo and Karai. It's not even close.

Yeah, it probably wasn't the intention. Like I said, if it was then they would have likely been able to get away with it (at least in terms of more concrete subtext) if they really intended to go there.

The thing is more that I wonder what would have happened if the show had gone on. I brought up the Legend of Korra as an example earlier, with that particular show there were oddly enough a lot of fanart of Korra with Princess Yue from the first show. Hell, fanart of her with Asami emerged during season one, considering the show was initially only meant to have one season and what the plot of said season is about, it's pretty obvious that Korra was not initially intended to end up with Asami.

Which is why I wonder what would have happened if this show lasted longer. I agree that there isn't anything substantial to pair Karai and Shinigami as it was, though it does seem like they kind of thing some writer would be tempted to do if the show just kept going.

As for the the Karai/Leo relationship, that itself seems like a forced interpretation of previous material. It honestly felt like someone watched the 4Kids show to know the gist of how to write Karai's dynamic with other characters, and somehow came out of thinking Leo urging Karai to stop serving the Shredder because he can she has a conscience was actually meant to indicate romantic feelings (never mind the existence of Chaplin and his far more obvious feelings I guess...). Different continuity, yes and therefore it wasn't like they technically forced something that wasn't the intention, but clearly not a continuity started in ignorance of previous material.

[CyberCubed]

Karai flirting with Leo but still having Shinigami as a lover would basically fit too? Karai being bisexual and teasing a Turtle while having a lesbian mistress fits her character. It's not like the human/turtle romances were ever going to go anywhere anyway, same reason Don's crush on April went nowhere.

I find it hard to believe Shinigami and Karai were, "just friends." Just look at the way they look at each other and the way they dress. It's literally screaming "lesbo" without blatantly saying it since this is a kids show.

[neatoman]

Well, you're at least right about the human/turtle "romances" I guess, they had five seasons to make the April/Donatello thing official if they wanted to and never did. It just remained this creepy, bizarre thing that stained the show from beginning to end, not that I even remotely wanted it to be official, I wish they had rejected the idea from even ending up in the final product in the first place.

That said, while that terrible ship is what prevented them from just making Casey and April the official couple (like any other version would), it didn't prevent them from having Casey flirt with April anyway. If they really wanted Karai and Shinigami be a thing, like I've already pointed out here, they probably would have been allowed to have them flirt with each other. Already at the time there far more blatant examples of putting same sex couples in kids' cartoons, to say these two had to be intended to be a couple just seems weird given the time period it was released in.

[CyberCubed]

It probably didn't help Shinigami was not introduced until halfway into the series, and then in Season 5 I think she only appears once and gets knocked out immediately in 5 minutes. Her character was underused in general, which is strange since it felt like they were going to make a big deal out of her at first.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

It probably didn't help Shinigami was not introduced until halfway into the series, and then in Season 5 I think she only appears once and gets knocked out immediately in 5 minutes. Her character was underused in general, which is strange since it felt like they were going to make a big deal out of her at first.

I'm just going to assume they didn't create this character until that point.

[sdp]

Well Karai has always been implied to be a lesbian in every incarnation.
Mirage: the haircut come on, could they have made it any clearer? don't think so
FW: Lotus Blossom IS Karai and well back in the 80s any girl who liked boy stuff like being a ninja was basically a dyke.
2k3: This one was more subtle as they also tried to do the whole beasteality thing with Leo but if you have a good gaydar you can tell there were signals of her and x april
2012: Why would tumblr lie about it?
Platinum Dunes: Her actress is a carpet muncher, so by logic so would Karai

My wife's boyfriend found this on the R/TMNT sub reddit that agree with us
[Should Karai be made a lesbian going forward in canon? She already basically is lesbian-coded
]
Here is an image to convince those who don't think so

[ToTheNines]

Precita mentioned.

What an odd guy…

[The Great Saiyaman]

Originally Posted by neatoman

As for the the Karai/Leo relationship, that itself seems like a forced interpretation of previous material. It honestly felt like someone watched the 4Kids show to know the gist of how to write Karai's dynamic with other characters, and somehow came out of thinking Leo urging Karai to stop serving the Shredder because he can she has a conscience was actually meant to indicate romantic feelings (never mind the existence of Chaplin and his far more obvious feelings I guess...). Different continuity, yes and therefore it wasn't like they technically forced something that wasn't the intention, but clearly not a continuity started in ignorance of previous material.

"Forced" is the one word that doesn't fit the dynamic that Leo and Karai had. In fact, the fact that it took way until the fourth season until the two of them were finally open and comfortable around each other shows that there was no "We have to give Leo a girlfriend just because" behind her introduction.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by The Great Saiyaman

"Forced" is the one word that doesn't fit the dynamic that Leo and Karai had. In fact, the fact that it took way until the fourth season until the two of them were finally open and comfortable around each other shows that there was no "We have to give Leo a girlfriend just because" behind her introduction.

Not forced in the sense that this particular show written to make it happen, but more in the sense that it seems to be inspired by a deliberate misreading of their dynamic in previous iterations. The previous show is what seems to have been interpreted in a forced way, not the writing of the show itself that was forced, I thought I was pretty clear about that.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Not forced in the sense that this particular show written to make it happen, but more in the sense that it seems to be inspired by a deliberate misreading of their dynamic in previous iterations. The previous show is what seems to have been interpreted in a forced way, not the writing of the show itself that was forced, I thought I was pretty clear about that.

I think the dynamic makes sense FOR THE 2012 SHOW. When you consider that them being teenagers is fundamental to their characters in this particular universe, rather than just being a cheeky title, the usual dynamic that exists between Karai and Leo lends itself well to what they did here. Making them interested in each other, in the context of them being teenagers, is actually a pretty logical next step (again, FOR THIS VERSION ONLY. It's not something I'd want to see in every version).

[ticktack]

You make it sound like teenagers are uncontrollable horndogs,
They aren't even mature enough for a serious relationship.

Innuendos between animated teens are nonsensical, unnecessary and irrelevant, problematic.

Reducing characters to mere romance, cloth, movements, framing-choices is also bad, sketchy and very creepy.

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