How do you define "superhero" and "supervillain"?

[Prowler]

Occasionally there's a discussion on these forums about whether the TMNT are superheroes or not. And weather Shredder and other rogues are supervillains or not. I remember Andrew, in a thread I made asking why Shredder wanted to take over the world in the FW, saying he did not consider Shredder a supervillain because he did not have any super powers.

But honestly, super powers don't seem like a good criteria anymore for what determines a fictional character a superhero or supervillain. Look at Batman and Joker! Neither of those guys have super powers. Does anyone bat an eye, no pun intended, when Batman gets referred to as a superhero?

And a superhero does not even necessarily have to be someone who tries to save the world all the time, I'd say.

Superheroes and supervillains seem like a very American concept, but they can extend to lots of anime/manga characters like DBZ, Sailor Moon, One Piece, etc. characters. You could argue Astérix and Obélix from the French comic series Astérix qualify was European superheroes as well. And if we're heading into video games, wouldn't Mario and Link technically qualify as well?!

Basically, I think superhero and supervillain have become catch-all terms to label fictional characters with superpowers and/or who wear fancy outfits when fighting against other people. And they often have codenames. Many conceal their real identities, but not all of them.

[Coola Yagami]

Mostly comes down to if they have super powers or not though Batman characters seem to be the exception. Joker is considered a supervillain due to the huge death toll on his hands. One the other hand, Batman might be called a superhero, but you don't really hear people calling Robin or Batgirl a superhero.

Anime is more just... heroes and villains, unless the show purposely falls into the genre like MHA and One Punch Man. In anime a lot of the times the characters live in a world where you can actually train or study to obtain what we would consider superhuman abilities (DBZ, FMA, YYH, HxH) or people just have these odd abilities and whatnot in that world without it being out of place, like One Piece and Jojo Bizzare Adventure.

Anime usually is more matter-of-fact or have main characters trying to obtain some sort of goal and 'saving the world' just happens to be one of the things in the way or they happen to fall upon it. For example Goku always happens to face these powerful enemies for the sake of the challenge or to avenge fallen friends, but the whole 'save the world' scenario isn't front and center. It just so happens that defeating so-and-so will also save the world.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Mostly comes down to if they have super powers or not though Batman characters seem to be the exception. Joker is considered a supervillain due to the huge death toll on his hands. One the other hand, Batman might be called a superhero, but you don't really hear people calling Robin or Batgirl a superhero.

Anime is more just... heroes and villains, unless the show purposely falls into the genre like MHA and One Punch Man. In anime a lot of the times the characters live in a world where you can actually train or study to obtain what we would consider superhuman abilities (DBZ, FMA, YYH, HxH) or people just have these odd abilities and whatnot in that world without it being out of place, like One Piece and Jojo Bizzare Adventure.

Anime usually is more matter-of-fact or have main characters trying to obtain some sort of goal and 'saving the world' just happens to be one of the things in the way or they happen to fall upon it. For example Goku always happens to face these powerful enemies for the sake of the challenge or to avenge fallen friends, but the whole 'save the world' scenario isn't front and center. It just so happens that defeating so-and-so will also save the world.

Does Batman even normally try to save the world? AFAIK Joker and other villains mostly just seem to threaten Gotham City. I don't remember "saving the world" ever being a plot point in any Batman stuff I've consumed.

The bits about anime technically apply to the Ninja Turtles in Mirage and 2k3 as well. But I think most casuals would file in the TMNT under the "superhero" label and genre. They're probably marketed that way as well.

Anyway, your explanations about anime/manga actually make a lot of sense.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Mutation turned the Turtles into superturtles. Other Earth Turtles can't walk, talk and think like Humans, and definately not practice karate and ninjutsu. However, they do not posess any superhuman abilities.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

1987 Shredder was so full of himself to keep unironically calling himself a supervillain.

Even his Mom was an a literal Retirement Home for Super Villains.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

1987 Shredder was so full of himself to keep unironically calling himself a supervillain.

Even his Mom was an a literal Retirement Home for Super Villains.

Lol I completely forgot about that. I wonder what kind of supervillainy Shredder's mum did back in her heyday.

"Shredder has a mother?!" this question asked by Raphael is, low key, one of the funniest lines in the FW series. Hell, when I told my mum about Shredder's Mom episode, she literally asked me the same thing, but in Portuguese. "He has a mother?!" (Ele tem mãe?!)

[Andrew NDB]

The Turtles aren't superheroes. Maybe the bulletproof 2014 ones are.

Batman only is because of his brain.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

The Turtles aren't superheroes. Maybe the bulletproof 2014 ones are.

Batman only is because of his brain.

But society automatically files them in under the superhero label. TMNT comics will get inevitably compared to Marvel, DC, etc. comics in discussions. Not to other kinds of comics.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

But society automatically files them in under the superhero label. TMNT comics will get inevitably compared to Marvel, DC, etc. comics in discussions. Not to other kinds of comics.

See, "idiots."

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Does Batman even normally try to save the world? AFAIK Joker and other villains mostly just seem to threaten Gotham City. I don't remember "saving the world" ever being a plot point in any Batman stuff I've consumed.

Not on his own, but as a member of the Justice League, countless times.

As for the Turtles, they kinda drew the short straw. All they have are the shells. Other mutants have incredible strength or can fly or whatever else features come with whatever animal they are. The Turtles are pretty much weird green guys with shells. They had to legit train for their ninjitsu and backflipping skills, it didn't come with the mutation. Were they not mutated alongside Splinter, they would have just been weird green guys with no special skills. If they ran into Leatherhead, he woulda killed them without a problem.

[ToTheNines]

Stuff like this is just overthinking.

There’s obvious superhero media/chapesh*t, then there’s more alternative stuff like TMNT. Turtles has a lot of obvious Miller, Kirby and other Marvel/DC influence, and on a very basic level they are protagonists who combat antagonists.

So it’d be more accurate to call them “action heroes”, I guess. They have more in common with John McClane than Superman.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

So it’d be more accurate to call them “action heroes”, I guess. They have more in common with John McClane than Superman.

Even stuff like that makes the hairs on my neck stand up a little bit. While they can be put in situations where they'll end up being "heroic," these aren't situations they'd be seeking out and wouldn't be part of their modus operandi on the day-to-day. And "Heroic Ninja" is an oxymoron even more than "Honorable Ninja."

Let alone adding "Super" into the equation.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Even stuff like that makes the hairs on my neck stand up a little bit. While they can be put in situations where they'll end up being "heroic," these aren't situations they'd be seeking out and wouldn't be part of their modus operandi on the day-to-day. And "Heroic Ninja" is an oxymoron even more than "Honorable Ninja."

Let alone adding "Super" into the equation.

They're the heroes of their stories. Same as Frodo, or John Wick, or Luke Skywalker, or Samurai Jack, or Crash Bandicoot, or any other protagonist in an action-based series that you would never actually call a "super hero".

It is kind of funny that even in the cartoons where people act like they are superheroes, the characters end up adopting separate superhero identities (Dark Turtle, Green Defender, Turtle Titan, Nightwatcher, Night Ninja etc.)