CGI vs. Live - random thoughts

[Buslady]

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

[Ratchet]

Originally Posted by Buslady

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

But by that logic, we shouldn't really be seeing ancient monsters coming to life either. This seems like a fresh start for the movies, similar in a sense to Batman Begins, though this will probably touch more on the original film than Begins did with Batman.

[Aztec General]

The TMNT can do so much more in a CGI world. The actors were EXTREMELY limited in the live action films. This new media offers more to the fields of sci-fi, fantasy, and action films. Also it's cheaper than a live action film and that had to be a major consideration here.

[Warhorse]

^ That's true about the cost of things. I can relate to what buslady is saying though. It's gonna be different for me. But as long as they got the characters down pat, I should like the movie none the less.

I just hope that one day, they could incorporate the cgi turtles with live action like LOTR or Jurassic Park. They still have that humanization quality, and can capture the Turtles facial expressions, but they would't be restricted to ordinary stunt man abilities.

[Zelda]

Yeah, one thing I loved about the originals was that it really took the material seriously. While you have more ability to move the faces in CGI....the texture, shape, size of the turtles had such a visceral feel in the first movies. It's heartbreaking when Raph sheds that one tear, speaking with Splinter.... I'm not going to feel that with CGI. It's animation and it creates much more distance for me than the jerky motions of suits.

?!? It's more expensive to do CGI than to do suits????? Really? O_o; That doesn't make any sense at all to me o_o My friend and I made monster costumes, full body, movable jaw, glowing eyes, gooy parts, etc for about $100 each. For twice that and the art skills we could have made something a million times better. Compare that to the amount of time, skill, manpower, $$$ computers, etc it must take to make a full on CGI film?!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Zelda

Yeah, one thing I loved about the originals was that it really took the material seriously. While you have more ability to move the faces in CGI....the texture, shape, size of the turtles had such a visceral feel in the first movies. It's heartbreaking when Raph sheds that one tear, speaking with Splinter.... I'm not going to feel that with CGI. It's animation and it creates much more distance for me than the jerky motions of suits.

Just becasue it's animation, doesn't mean it can't be as emotional. I'm tierd of people being so bias against animation becuase it's not real people.

They're have been plenty of animes that have had real heartbreaking, tearjerker moments. I have no doubt in my mind this movie can accomplish the same.

Plus in the first movie, (though it's my favorite movie of all time), I always cringe at how the mouth movenments don't match the dialouge at times. Plus with CGI, they're capable of showing emotion with their facial expressions.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

Just becasue it's animation, doesn't mean it can't be as emotional. I'm tierd of people being so bias against animation becuase it's not real people.

They're have been plenty of animes that have had real heartbreaking, tearjerker moments. I have no doubt in my mind this movie can accomplish the same.

Plus in the first movie, (though it's my favorite movie of all time), I always cringe at how the mouth movenments don't match the dialouge at times. Plus with CGI, they're capable of showing emotion with their facial expressions.

What animated movies did you see that got you all emotional? I can't think of one, simply because it's on a different plane. I will find things that make me laugh with cartoons, but I have rarely felt depressed or upset after watching a cartoon, probably because I can't really relate to it.

But I can get into some of those fan fictions pretty good. Go figure!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

What animated movies did you see that got you all emotional? I can't think of one, simply because it's on a different plane. I will find things that make me laugh with cartoons, but I have rarely felt depressed or upset after watching a cartoon, probably because I can't really relate to it.

But I can get into some of those fan fictions pretty good. Go figure!

I didn't say animated movies, I said anime. I can't really think of too many animated movies.

[Buslady]

While it's true they could use the CGI to add to the expressions, being turtles and limited expression to me, makes it more realistic.
To me animating the tmnt creates this distance as Zelda mentioned, it's not real, it is kinda hard to explain...sure the costumed live turtles are not real but they are physical and being "real" makes it easier for some to connect with them. If I'm picturing in my mind one of the turtles, I see movie 1, I dont see comics, cartoon, or even...*gag*...TNM....I see the first live action turtles...I can truely connect with them, well Raph...I sense more emotion from him, all with his clunky antique animatronics and poorly synched lip flap(the big argument scene, they had problems and kinda winged it)...and yeah especially the Raph/Splinter piece, I could see and feel his pain, shame and all that...
Yeah they'll try to do that with the CGI movie, but it just won't be the same.

just so people know, this isn't a thing started to knock CGI...there is alot of good with it. I wasn't talking money either. Im talking the actual product. It will be interesting to see what they put out for us...this new look, style and I really am looking forward to some nice dark stuff...the way it should be.

[Mindy]

Originally Posted by Buslady

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

And I completely understand what you're trying to say; I'm also a big fan of the first movie and love the costumes, story.. everything. However, in this new movie, they can be exactly what they are [or at least called]: ninjas. It was pulled off just fine in the live action movies, but as others said, you can do so much more in the CGI world that is very limited with costumes and stunt men. It does make me a little sad that we'll never have that 1st movie feel back again. Also, Hollywood has to change its movies to cater to the current audience... and what does most of the population want now? CGI. Give me old style animation anyday, but I'm flexible and go with the times. Still doesn't mean I won't hold to my favorites, though.

The suspending gravity part was for dramatic effects, I believe.

Maybe the 2nd trailer will give you a better feel. I, too, am liking the darkness of it all.

[TerranigmaFreak]

Yeah, I also feel what Buslady is saying. I definitely feel like I connect more with the live action turtles than the CGI ones. Although I've never noticed the problem with the mouth flap, I think it's safe to say that this issue is but a simple timing mistake and can easily be fixed with some audio/visual editing with today's technology. Heck, I bet it wouldn't be too hard to fix back in 1990. They editors probably overlooked those little errors.

I'm also not trying to knock CGI, but there's also that feeling of awe when you see the stunt men perform their moves in those suits. There's a little extra something to the scene when you see a man in a 100 lb suit pull off these cool moves. With CGI/animation, I just don't feel it in the action. I'm not trying to knock the animators either. I know it takes just as much skill as the stunt men to animate the same move in animation.

As for a LOTR/JP style live action CGI, I would love to see something like that being made.

[Buslady]

The main scene that was a bit sloppy on the lip flap was the big Leo/Raph arguement, I believe I read at that time they were having some mechanical issues and just did the best they could. Sometimes there are words that can be hard to mimic with a piece of technology, for 1989, when it was filmed, it's not terrible. The tech was brand new, most of it developed FOR TMNT (then later used in Dinosaurs, man i loved that show!), they did a really nice job. Most of the flap was dead on.
There one other thing about making a live TMNT, it was revolutionary in tech development. Today, because of alot of the new stuff they made for TMNT, is now the staple for the Henson control unit system, which has been streamlined and is pretty durn slick now.
With a CGI, there's nothing new being done. Yep, CGI...been there, done that. I'd like to know if they are creating any new techniques, systems, etc. for this movie like the Henson team did way back.

[Cascadia]

To me, it might be a little easier than the live particularly that in the emotions department. With the animontics, it was rather difficult to show emotions because the actor and controller had to be the same thing at the same time. Also, there were limited number of things that animontics were able to do. With CGI, it might be easier but it will not appear to be real. However, it will be much darker than the live version or the 1987 cartoon series, which is what most people are used to. In my opinion, I would like to see a darker and more serious version of the TMNT. The 2K3 series was getting closer to what Laird wanted in a TMNT cartoon.

Also, this version may be more expensive or cheaper than the live version. There is much less props that go into the CGI version.

[Masked Ninja]

Maybe I'm just a freak, but I connect to animation pretty easily. It's the story and the way the characters are developed that matters, not how they look. Of course, that could be why I'm trying to get into the industry.

Originally Posted by Buslady

I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.

That bothers me a bit too, but it was obviously a conscious decision. Along with the super ninja leaping powerz, I'm sure it was meant to convey that they're stylizing the movie, in looks and action. The Turtles will not be "realistic," they will be stylized. And the humans too, to match. This never was intended to go for realism; it looks like they're trying to make it look like a living comic book rather than a real-life enactment of a comic book. I hope they don't do too many cartoony hover-in-the-air things in the actual film, but if they did I'd at least understand why.

The 1990 movie is still spectacular and I still love it. Dialogue sync still bothers me (as well as the horribly out-of-character Donatello and Leonardo) but the stunts are impressive and the story has heart. Sadly enough, people would look at a live-action TMNT movie today and say "they're still using animatronics? OLD." And in order to get the suits impressive enough to stop that reaction from happening, they would need a HUGE budget that they just don't have. I know many fans of the old movies are very loud about the "what the crap, we want live action" but I think the same people would be making fun of it had they done it that way.

Originally Posted by Buslady

With a CGI, there's nothing new being done. Yep, CGI...been there, done that. I'd like to know if they are creating any new techniques, systems, etc. for this movie like the Henson team did way back.

I know Pixar usually has one major thing they develop for each of their films. Monsters, Inc. for example, was the fur. (And freakin' awesome fur it was, too... especially in the blizzard) For TMNT, I don't expect the studio to have the money to develop too much. The "state of the art" muscle systems they're using that they mentioned in some interview do look nice - when Leo's onscreen in the trailer, his neck muscles especially look and move really nicely.

I can understand how live action feels more "real" to some of you. I agree, at least partially. It's the acting that really does it for me though, not how it looks*. I'm just eager to see how this new movie will be in tone and acting, no matter what kind of impossible acrobatics they pull out of their shells.

* unless it hurts my eyes SO much *coughFASTFORWARDcough* that I can't even look at it...

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

I can understand how live action feels more "real" to some of you.

Because it is real...

[Masked Ninja]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Because it is real...

One could say it's just as fake, because it's being acted.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

One could say it's just as fake, because it's being acted.

and one could also say it's real because it's a solid form and you can touch it and it's been created in the real world out of things unlike cgi which hes no fealing or life to it of course people used to say the same things about robots and look how far it's all come. I'm sure cgi will get to that point also but it's a long way off.

[TerranigmaFreak]

I have an easier time accepting the live action TMNT being real than their CGI counter part.

[Masked Ninja]

For me it's mostly about the acting - whether the voice inflections sound genuine. I also tend to notice timing and gestures - the live action turtles really bug me because the lip sync isn't very accurate at all. The fights look really nice, though, and manymany props to the actors for even being able to move in those suits.

But then again, I'm an animation major and I tend to be a little more accepting toward the animated side of things than most people. *shrug* And I'm looking forward to the freedom-to-play-with-physics that can allow the type of leaps and attacks only mutants can make.

...though now that I think about it... I do think that CG turtles in a CG world look more "real" in context than turtle suits in the real world. The thing is, the turtle suits aren't real, and the real world around them kinda calls attention to it for me. Which is why CG turtles in a live action environment would look even worse. When the whole world is generated by the computer, the Turtles at least match their world.

Guh. This makes me sound like I hate the live action movies. I don't - at least, not the first one. But as nice and awesome as the animatronic suits were, they are still pretty fake. *shrug* Doesn't stop me from enjoying the movie, though.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

For me it's mostly about the acting - whether the voice inflections sound genuine. I also tend to notice timing and gestures - the live action turtles really bug me because the lip sync isn't very accurate at all. The fights look really nice, though, and manymany props to the actors for even being able to move in those suits.

But then again, I'm an animation major and I tend to be a little more accepting toward the animated side of things than most people. *shrug* And I'm looking forward to the freedom-to-play-with-physics that can allow the type of leaps and attacks only mutants can make.

...though now that I think about it... I do think that CG turtles in a CG world look more "real" in context than turtle suits in the real world. The thing is, the turtle suits aren't real, and the real world around them kinda calls attention to it for me. Which is why CG turtles in a live action environment would look even worse. When the whole world is generated by the computer, the Turtles at least match their world.

Guh. This makes me sound like I hate the live action movies. I don't - at least, not the first one. But as nice and awesome as the animatronic suits were, they are still pretty fake. *shrug* Doesn't stop me from enjoying the movie, though.

You pretty muched sumed up my feelings as well.