Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[soccerstud652]

In the fight between our two turtle brothers, Raph and Leo, Raph is the obvious winner. But my understanding later (from Raph's comment to Splinter "I understand why you made him [Leo] leader.") is that Leo let Raph win?

I don't know exactly how to phrase it, but that is the feeling that I got afterward - he was being a good leader by letting Raph win? Or did Raph just whip Leo at the end to set up the capture and make up?

EDIT: Changed title to be less - spoilerie.

[CJStyles]

I think cause he realized he acts impolsivly at times so thats why he's not leader

[Buslady]

Leo in no way LET Raph win, Raph WON that fight.

[johnnyblaze]

I kind of figured that Leo won round 1, Raph won round 2. I mean they first fought when Raph was still only the Nightwatcher to Leo. They fought and Leo used Nightwatcher's anger against him and then hit him with an upper cut which layed him out.

Then because of that he finds out Nightwatcher= Raph and the 2 go at it after they argue. The match was definatly even until they locked up and Raph broke Leo's swords (which caught Leo completly offgaurd judging by the expression on his face) and Raph then took that opportunity to take Leo down.

1 Leo
1 Raph

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

He said that because he felt terrible after failing to get Leo back.

[johnnyblaze]

said what?

[Karai]

Raph's deal was that he was convinced he could lead himself better than Leo could. After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible - But that's what makes him a good leader (as Splinter says later when Raph returns, it takes humility to be a good leader in addition to strength and loyalty). Raph turns tail and runs because he realizes this and is overwhelmed by it. It's like having a big fight with your sibling and finding out that you were wrong after spending so much time yelling at each other. =P He realizes how much he needs Leonardo because he isn't ready to act on his own, and it makes him feel ashamed.

Then, of course, he's able to admit to his mistake once Leo is lost to Winters and comes back to his brothers to help get him back.

At least, this is my take on it.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

"I understand why you made him leader."

I forgot the whole statement.

[vagrant718]

how can yall say raph won that fight when leo embarrassed him as the nightwatcher. knocking somebody down and running away is not considered a "win" to me.

[johnnyblaze]

I'm still sticking to my

Leo-1
Raph-1

Because literally, thats how it went down: Leo beat Raph then Raph beat Leo

[vagrant718]

Originally Posted by johnnyblaze

I'm still sticking to my

Leo-1
Raph-1

Because literally, thats how it went down: Leo beat Raph then Raph beat Leo

i can agree with that

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

Raph let his anger get to him. He didn't realize that his anger nearly cost Leo's life until he was about to take it. Like Splinter said in the first movie, "It can be an unconquerable enemy." I believe Raph won the fight, but with a price. He finally realized that he needs Leo to be there for him. And he also figured out that it's his temper and anger that will keep him from being a proper leader that Leo is. You can tell his attitude totally changed after this and after Leo got kidnapped.

[Time Mistress]

I think Rahzar said it pretty well.

This was, as ThemanthatwouldRaphael said in his review thread the BEST TMNT fight in any of the movies. This was the best scene in the movie, it's the centerpiece in terms both of action and emotion. And I loved ever second of it. It's the Leo vs. Raph fight we've always wanted to see, with neither holding back. And they ARE evenly matched. There was some fear when I read the novelization that it might be more onesided (not that I wouldn't be glad for Raph to finally beat Leo but then all the Leo fans would be screaming) but that wasn't the case at all on film. It was definately, round 1 to Leo and round 2 to Raph. These guys were working all their strengths against each other and all their weaknesses were taken advantage of as well. Raph and Leo are two fighters who know each other inside because they are brothers but they also don't know each other in this fight because they have both gotten better in their time spent apart.

Raph's advantage over Leo when he breaks his swords and imediately following isn't one of skill, it's one of pure berseker rage. Raph's shame isn't just that he realizes what Rahzar said, but also that if Raph had continued to press his advantage at that point the outcome would have been that Raph's next move would have killed his own brother in his berserker rage (just like the Meet Casey Jones ep in the new toon where Raph almost kills Mike with the pipe in his rage). It's the thought that Raph could even come so close to commiting such a abominble act against Leo and just barely stopping himself in time that causes him to flee.

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

Originally Posted by Time Mistress

I think Rahzar said it pretty well.

This was, as ThemanthatwouldRaphael said in his review thread the BEST TMNT fight in any of the movies. This was the best scene in the movie, it's the centerpiece in terms both of action and emotion. And I loved ever second of it. It's the Leo vs. Raph fight we've always wanted to see, with neither holding back. And they ARE evenly matched. There was some fear when I read the novelization that it might be more onesided (not that I wouldn't be glad for Raph to finally beat Leo but then all the Leo fans would be screaming) but that wasn't the case at all on film. It was definately, round 1 to Leo and round 2 to Raph. These guys were working all their strengths against each other and all their weaknesses were taken advantage of as well. Raph and Leo are two fighters who know each other inside because they are brothers but they also don't know each other in this fight because they have both gotten better in their time spent apart.

Raph's advantage over Leo when he breaks his swords and imediately following isn't one of skill, it's one of pure berseker rage. Raph's shame isn't just that he realizes what Rahzar said, but also that if Raph had continued to press his advantage at that point the outcome would have been that Raph's next move would have killed his own brother in his berserker rage (just like the Meet Casey Jones ep in the new toon where Raph almost kills Mike with the pipe in his rage). It's the thought that Raph could even come so close to commiting such a abominble act against Leo and just barely stopping himself in time that causes him to flee.

Raph has the most potential to really lose it because of his rage. Honestly, if he had really hurt Leo or even killed him, he would of lived the rest of his life in shame. Raph is closer to the dark side than any of this brothers. I hope he finally seeks solitude in Splinter's help with his problem. And let's hope he never drinks alcohol either. That would only make it worse.

[Katie]

Originally Posted by vagrant718

how can yall say raph won that fight when leo embarrassed him as the nightwatcher. knocking somebody down and running away is not considered a "win" to me.

But remember, Raph had a TON of gear on as Nightwatcher. He could still move pretty good, but not like her would have au naturale.

I used to race street bikes. Walking around in leathers is hard work, much less having a fight in them.

[iris]

Originally Posted by Rahzar

After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible -

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

Originally Posted by iris

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues.

That was all very well said...I think that scene made the movie, it was the whole climatic turn and it was the part that really just got me. They may have concentrated on Leo and Raph for most of the film but they did it well

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by Katie

But remember, Raph had a TON of gear on as Nightwatcher. He could still move pretty good, but not like her would have au naturale.

I used to race street bikes. Walking around in leathers is hard work, much less having a fight in them.

granted he had alot of stuff on but it didn't seem to effect his movement at all

[Quiet_Guy]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle

Raph has the most potential to really lose it because of his rage. Honestly, if he had really hurt Leo or even killed him, he would of lived the rest of his life in shame. Raph is closer to the dark side than any of this brothers. I hope he finally seeks solitude in Splinter's help with his problem. And let's hope he never drinks alcohol either. That would only make it worse.

If Raph touched alcohol that would be akin to a natural disaster reaping havoc upon the world.

[johnnyblaze]

Originally Posted by iris

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues.

I thought his losing to Raph, then his saying that he needs him when Leo is saved was Leo coming around to respect his brother more. Granted he didn't get the chance to vent after the fight as Raph did but I think Leo telling Raph that he needs him, especially after how earlier in the film he questions why they need him at all, was supposed to show that