Anatomy of Mutant Turtles

[teletran]

I was thinking of putting together an anatomical workup of the turtles based on their appearance and abilities as well as the anatomy of real turtles.
I searched the web to find out if anyone had done anything similar and found this:
http://tmnt.besshudson.com/anatomy.html
Which is helpful but has several aspects that I would have done differently.
If you have any comments or suggestions for this project please let me know. I will update soon.

[teletran]

As far as I can tell the easiest way to determine the inner structure of the turtles is to start with an ordinary turtle and extrapolate how it'd structure must be changed to match the outer appetence of the TMNT. Actually the easiest way would probably be just to make it up as I go along but I'll hold that option in reserve for now.

The turtles would probably have mutated from a variety readily available to the New York pet trade in the late 60's early 70's (derived from their ages in the first issue of the comic). The turtles seem to be based on generic turtles which according to my research don't really exist as almost all species seem to have some gimmick or other which makes them instantly recognisable. This being said the box turtle is almost generic as its 'gimmick' is the ability completely enclose itself in its shell, which is subtle and would be completely useless once the mutation set in. official sources however have suggested the 'Red-eared Slider' which I had initially rejected because it has coloured stripes on it's body but that doesn't really matter because the differences for the most part are only skin deep.

An important question to ask is, was the mutagen changing them into something or away from something? Which is to say was it unlocking the hidden potentials in their turtle bodies or was it introducing human elements into there DNA? They are after all anthropomorphic turtles when all is said and done. The trouble with this question is that we don't have enough evidence to make a determination one way or the other as to my knowledge all subjects dosed with the mutagen (the turtles, splinter and leatherhead, let me know if you can think of any others.) were vertebrates within the same size range and with the same basic body plan.

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by teletran

I was thinking of putting together an anatomical workup of the turtles based on their appearance and abilities as well as the anatomy of real turtles.
I searched the web to find out if anyone had done anything similar and found this:
http://tmnt.besshudson.com/anatomy.html
Which is helpful but has several aspects that I would have done differently.
If you have any comments or suggestions for this project please let me know. I will update soon.

This was a project that myself and Bess worked on. I am a turtle breeder as well as a fan, with her incredible knowledge of anatomy and her art we did this. She went for the ribbed version where I like the version with the ribs fused to the inside of the shell and bridge. We had fun with it.

What things you would have done differently?

My thoughts on what the green goo had in it was a dose of human blueprints suspended in a preserving goo. Once the turtles were exposed, their skin absorbed it. The goo enabled the DNA to penetrate their own and reprogram their bodies as they grew, then finally maybe completing their form by say, oh 5 years old, then they continued growing into what they are now.
Officially they ARE Red Ear Sliders, Trachemys Scripta Elegans, probably from Chinatown, and were most likely bred and hatched in the south where they are easily kept and bred by the thousands. Maybe they were born at Abbots Turtle Farm!
Why no species identifying markings? Well, mutation removed the camoflage needed for survival in the wild. Their skin remains green. RES (short for red ear slider) skin is green but usually very dark, and as RES age they lose their pigment appearing nearly all black. I ignore that for creative license. There's a few things you just hafta overlook on purpose. ^.^

[Spacefille]

Originally Posted by Buslady

I am a turtle breeder as well as a fan,

Dude, that's gotta suck for you. I spent two hours one night trying to figure out what species of turtles they were and discovered that they don't look anything LIKE turtles at all. Including a finger count that is completely different than human or turtle. Their markings are off and turtles are rarely even green! Now I just look at them and shake my head, but you being around turtles all the time? You've got to completely suspend disbelief I imagine.

My theory on the mutation was much like yours, except I thought that maybe the residue human DNA was on them from the pet store handlers. Either way the only way the mutegen thing could make sense is if they're really half human/half turtle. With odd digit counts. O_o; As for the skin color... uh, maybe the human DNA was from a light skinned person and it balanced out? I don't know, it's an idea. ^^


Hey if they're half human they can probably interbreed with humans, right?

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by Spacefille

Dude, that's gotta suck for you. I spent two hours one night trying to figure out what species of turtles they were and discovered that they don't look anything LIKE turtles at all. Including a finger count that is completely different than human or turtle. Their markings are off and turtles are rarely even green! Now I just look at them and shake my head, but you being around turtles all the time? You've got to completely suspend disbelief I imagine.

My theory on the mutation was much like yours, except I thought that maybe the residue human DNA was on them from the pet store handlers. Either way the only way the mutegen thing could make sense is if they're really half human/half turtle. With odd digit counts. O_o; As for the skin color... uh, maybe the human DNA was from a light skinned person and it balanced out? I don't know, it's an idea. ^^


Hey if they're half human they can probably interbreed with humans, right?

I don't know why it would suck for me, I'm a hobby breeder not a huge scale breeder like Abbot's Turtle Farm. I've got 4 baby wood turtles right now and 2 on the way. Woo!
Actually red ear sliders do have green skin. My Ornate Woods have green skin too, more olive green. Green is often like the base color for many species. My woods, you got olive green background with red stripes lined with black. Red ears are green skinned with yellow stripes and a pair of big rad patches on each side of the head. Diamondback terrapins have bright light grey almost white skin with spots. Snapper's skin's green. Tortoises are most often brown though.

Well, as for interbreeding, they can in my fics. I like the odd idea of Raph being a father figure, I dunno, I get a kick out of it. It's something you will really never ever see in the mainstream. If they could their babies would probably look quite like them.

this is one of my hatchlings a couple months ago, brand new:


aint 'e cuuuuuuttteee?

[Daunt]

Off topic post to squee at the turtle picture. X) It's so cute!

[Spacefille]

That IS adorable Buslady. I want to hold it!

With the interbreeding, yeah I wrote fics back in High School where they could as well. XD Raph had a spunky daughter that looked like a ninja turtle with flaming red hair. Ahhh, the memories.

Still the only way that is possible is if they have compatable DNA, and the only way THAT is possible is if they have a bit more human DNA in them than your everyday turtle. ^^ But yes...

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by Spacefille

That IS adorable Buslady. I want to hold it!

With the interbreeding, yeah I wrote fics back in High School where they could as well. XD Raph had a spunky daughter that looked like a ninja turtle with flaming red hair. Ahhh, the memories.

Still the only way that is possible is if they have compatable DNA, and the only way THAT is possible is if they have a bit more human DNA in them than your everyday turtle. ^^ But yes...

And more often than not, I like to think nature always has a way. Mutation occurs naturally already, why not allow the guys to be able to produce a family with a human mate?

[Cascadia]

mutations can occur when your DNA copies itself. There are several types of mutations that can occur.

1) Environmental agents (mutagens)--UV, radiation and other chemicals
2) point mutations--A point mutation is a simple change in one base of the gene sequence.
3) frame-shift mutations--n a frame shift mutation, one or more bases are inserted or deleted, the equivalent of adding or removing letters in a sentence. But because our cells read DNA in three letter "words", adding or removing one letter changes each subsequent word. This type of mutation can make the DNA meaningless and often results in a shortened protein.
4) Deletion--Mutations that result in missing DNA are called deletions. These can be small, such as the removal of just one "word," or longer deletions that affect a large number of genes on the chromosome. Deletions can also cause frameshift mutations.
5) Insertion--Mutations that result in the addition of extra DNA are called insertions. Insertions can also cause frameshift mutations, and general result in a nonfunctional protein.
6) Inversion--n an inversion mutation, an entire section of DNA is reversed. A small inversion may involve only a few bases within a gene, while longer inversions involve large regions of a chromosome containing several genes.

[Jo Dawn]

Originally Posted by Spacefille

Hey if they're half human they can probably interbreed with humans, right?

*Looks at her Vicissitude fic; Grins evilly. Runs away*

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by Jo Dawn

*Looks at her Vicissitude fic; Grins evilly. Runs away*

Uh oh heheheheeeee......


I love that fic...freaking crazy....

[Jo Dawn]

Are you calling me crazy? Hahah.

That's ok... You may be calling me something else by the end of the fic (Yes, I'm still writing)... But, uh... Maybe not. I can say no more. (Though I do thank you for reading, Buslady, really... Highly appreciate it and all that.)

[Lord Nightwalker]

Man, I love this thread. I too have done sketches of what I thought their anatomy was like, Even going so far as to do sets with a more realistic look as well as their classic look. My little sister is a Herpatologist,(I think I had some influence on that line of work. lol.) So she has shared some of her research with me on occassion. also, I have pet turtles, Box and semi aquatics, and several books on them. I love this sort of speculative stuff. It verges on a cryptozoologic melting pot at times, But it's very interesting. I have had pretty much the same thoughts as most of you, But I have had a few curiosities of my own. Like, what if the mutation read into the history of the turles DNA, Pulling out their strenghts of the species. The best of the Aquatics, and land turtles, drawing on their common ancestry and evolving them as the underwent their genetic change..Farfetched, I know, But the thought of it was inticing. Something in the effect of them resulting in a reptillian hominid species...Not just a merging of cold blooded and warm blooded genetic make ups, But the creation of something new. Ekk! Sorry, I didn't mean to get carried away gang. Again, thanks for this awesome topic.

[Cascadia]

I have a book on Science & popular culture. It goes into information about mutations, in which it discusses alittle bit about TMNT. I will type information that the book provides if you want me to.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Originally Posted by Scientific freak

I have a book on Science & popular culture. It goes into information about mutations, in which it discusses alittle bit about TMNT. I will type information that the book provides if you want me to.

Please do. This topic is very interesting.

Oh and of all the mutations you mentioned in your earlier post, which would you say are probably the primary reason for the Turtles physiological structure?

(I imagine insertion might have something to do with it, but you mentioned nonfunctional protein, so perhaps not. )

Anyway, please elaborate further, if you don't mind, Donny-- I mean, Scientific freak.

[Cascadia]

Me, Donny? ...

Genetic mutations can produce new alleles of the gene that produce new traits in an organism--human traits. The mutation rate is typically slow unless the organism is exposed to mutagens--the ooze or anything that you would like to call it. Mutations can either handicap or benefit the organism's survival. Favorable mutations, which are rare in nature, are preserved whereas, unfavorable ones tend to fade away. However, our DNA usually repairs itself, which is why permanent mutations are rare but do occur. For instance, E. coli, the mutation rate is somewhere between 1 x 10-6 and 1 x 10-7 mutations per gene per generation.

In terms of the ones that I mentioned, these are the ones that happen in nature. But in terms of the turtles, it would be that human DNA was either inserted into the turtle DNA from mutagen or the exposed to the chemicals changed the DNA. Usually the mutations occur in unfunctional portions of our DNA.

[teletran]

I’ve mainly been a proponent of the ‘ultimate evolution of the turtle form’ theory. However I like the idea that the turtles came into contact with human DNA first, and then the mutagen allowed it to enter their cells. The problem with this is that it leaves the door open to Splinter becoming some sort of weird three-way hybrid between rats turtles and humans. I can’t help thinking it would be easier to achieve the same ends without any DNA transplanting at all. DNA tells the body what to grow into, so with a few subtle rewrites you could increase the growth rate, lung capacity, muscle mass, intelligence, the sky’s the limit. Well almost, if the turtles were exposed to the mutagen as embryos then they could have developed into almost anything but because they were already fully formed their options are somewhat more limited. The chances of a six armed two headed turtle are rather slim, alien creatures bursting out of their chests are unlikely, spontaneously growing teeth is just about within the realms of possibility and as for a decreased number of fingers, well that’s easy.

Since I mentioned Splinter I should point out that I’ve always assumed that his exposure to the mutagen was more limited and thus his mutation less severe.

Originally Posted by Buslady

This was a project that myself and Bess worked on. I am a turtle breeder as well as a fan, with her incredible knowledge of anatomy and her art we did this. She went for the ribbed version where I like the version with the ribs fused to the inside of the shell and bridge. We had fun with it.

What things you would have done differently?

Well I’d have stuck with the three finger two toe version probably by fusing the bones of the alternate fingers, got rid of the redundant rib cage and just generally made it more turtley. Here’s a skull design I did yesterday but it was just for a bit of fun and I may not use it in my final project.




By the way do you like my new avatar?

[Cascadia]

nice avatar. In terms of the notion about Splinter, I am not entirely sure if you look at the original cartoon origin. But the information that I provided can probably go along with the comics, 2k3 series, and the movies.

[Buslady]

Actually Teletran, they DO have a rib cage, it's simply fused to the inside of the carapace, you can see the spinal column and ribbing. So it's not redundant, it's there and has a purpose!
And yes, nice avatar.

[johnnyblaze]

thinking back didn't they use red eared sliders for the flash back scene in the first film? I also liked how in the flashback scene when they were starting to stand up that their eyes are still reptilian and not the human style eyes they have now