Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Shark_Blade

Do you think tha Leo just gave up the fight, like not putting much of a fight with Raph?

The fact is they both got hot-headed in that scene, but had no intentions of killing each other, and they both had something to learn from it. So no, no one gave up the fight.

[Risawn]

This may be slightly off topic, but still on topic. I was reading this thread and was reminded of how there always appears to be some kind of conflict between Raph and Leo in the 2k3 series and the movies and how Raph wants to lead whereas Mikey and Don are content with Leo being the big cheese.

Then my mind went to the '87 cartoon 'Take me to Your Leader' where Leo suddenly loses his motivation to lead and leaves the other turtles to decide who gets to lead in his absence. Of course, that Raphael has no desire to actually lead and is just as content with goofing off with Michealangelo.

So I watched that episode again and got a good laugh, mostly focusing on Raphael's wise cracking, fourth wall breaking and decidedly lack of brooding.

Hehe. . . I've always considered the '87 Raphael a whole different character from the other versions of him.

Back on topic, I think I need to go back and watch the movie again, the dynamics between Raph and Leo really does make this movie really succeed (the Winters storyline is kind of weak) and I did a search and there is still a theater playing it in town! I've only seen it the once on opening weekend, I think I need to go back and check it out again. Specifically, I need to watch this fight a little closer. Definitely my favorite part of the movie.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Risawn

Then my mind went to the '87 cartoon 'Take me to Your Leader' where Leo suddenly loses his motivation to lead and leaves the other turtles to decide who gets to lead in his absence. Of course, that Raphael has no desire to actually lead and is just as content with goofing off with Michealangelo.

So I watched that episode again and got a good laugh, mostly focusing on Raphael's wise cracking, fourth wall breaking and decidedly lack of brooding.

Hehe. . . I've always considered the '87 Raphael a whole different character from the other versions of him.

That is my favourite 87 toon episode ever!

Whilst OT Raph is very different from the Raph we all know, the way I see OT Raphael is like the core of the Raphael we have seen in the comics / 2k3 / films etc - who he would be if he wasn't so messed up.

And I reckon that Raphael's terror of the role of being leader in this episode reflects his real feelings about leadership - that he knows deep down he has none of the qualities that make Leo so appropriate. I think his competing for the role of leadership is just a distortion of him competing with Leo for Splinter's love. Raphael made it clear in the new film that he thought that by choosing Leo as leader, Splinter was declaring him the most loved, the favourite. Raph just translated it wrong. He interpreted reward from the sensei as love from the father. That's why Raph wanted to be leader in my opinion. That, and he hates taking orders - especially from Leo (which he also does in 1987 toon).

Also notable about this episode is that of all the brothers, Raphael fails most miserably at being the leader. He falls at the first hurdle.

[MoreCowbell5263]

I've always wondered if Raph really wanted to be leader this whole time. Because it seems to me that he just doesn't like taking orders, which is why he went off fighting crime on his own in the new movie. I think Raph just wants more freedom but just tries to give people the idea that he can lead just as well as Leo can, but deep down, I think he's afraid of leading. But I'm not sure, it may just be me.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by jenna

I think his competing for the role of leadership is just a distortion of him competing with Leo for Splinter's love. Raphael made it clear in the new film that he thought that by choosing Leo as leader, Splinter was declaring him the most loved, the favourite. Raph just translated it wrong. He interpreted reward from the sensei as love from the father. That's why Raph wanted to be leader in my opinion. That, and he hates taking orders - especially from Leo (which he also does in 1987 toon).

I really like how TMNT addressed the Raph/Leo conflict. That scene with Raph and Splinter is so powerful.

In the OT, Splinter rarely refers to the boys as sons. It's usually "turtles" or "students." Might be why OT raph doen't mind taking orders from Leo. Ha, if Splinter doesn't love them anyway, why does it matter?

[jenna]

Saw the film for the 7th time at the weekend and I have to say I came back with a new perspective with regards to Raph & Leo and their little spat.

Viewings 1-6
Found Raphael's portrayal so poignant that I had a huge amount of sympathy for him. There was a great sense of sadness about him which has never been present in other incarnations before. I'm not saying that I thought he was right and Leo was wrong: I never voted in the "Who should have won" poll because I don't think it's a case of black / white, either / or, right / wrong... Neither should have won, but I really felt Raph's anguish.

Viewing 7
Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo. Imagine it! Your little brother, whom you love, arguably that you are closest to despite your differences, fighting you so hard that he breaks your precious swords, glaring at you with pure, mad venom, then getting you into that position, poised to kill you, when you don't really know what you've done that's so wrong. True, Leo and Raph fighting is nothing new, but this time it's different. This time Raph is driven by bitterness that is so deep that Leo is only now seeing the depth to Raph's resentment of him. Imagine the realisation that your little brother who is simultaneously so tough and so vulnerable has hated you this much for so long and you had no idea. You thought it was about something as petty as who gets to call the shots.

No wonder the look of Leo's face as he is lying there and later watching Raphael run away is one of disbelief and pure devastation....

[Raphamel]

Originally Posted by jenna

Saw the film for the 7th time at the weekend and I have to say I came back with a new perspective with regards to Raph & Leo and their little spat.

Viewings 1-6
Found Raphael's portrayal so poignant that I had a huge amount of sympathy for him. There was a great sense of sadness about him which has never been present in other incarnations before. I'm not saying that I thought he was right and Leo was wrong: I never voted in the "Who should have won" poll because I don't think it's a case of black / white, either / or, right / wrong... Neither should have won, but I really felt Raph's anguish.

Viewing 7
Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo. Imagine it! Your little brother, whom you love, arguably that you are closest to despite your differences, fighting you so hard that he breaks your precious swords, glaring at you with pure, mad venom, then getting you into that position, poised to kill you, when you don't really know what you've done that's so wrong. True, Leo and Raph fighting is nothing new, but this time it's different. This time Raph is driven by bitterness that is so deep that Leo is only now seeing the depth to Raph's resentment of him. Imagine the realisation that your little brother who is simultaneously so tough and so vulnerable has hated you this much for so long and you had no idea. You thought it was about something as petty as who gets to call the shots.

No wonder the look of Leo's face as he is lying there and later watching Raphael run away is one of disbelief and pure devastation....

WELL said! And that's it, that's what's so sad about it. Leo had no idea how deep the hurt ran and thus doesn't understand how Raph can possibly be so spiteful. What really pains me, though, is that he didn't get to see Raph's chasing him after he was captured or his confession to Splinter... in fact I can't remember a time where Leo really gets to "experience" Raph's true feelings for him. Whenever Raph shows his vulnerable side, Leo is hurt or unconscious (like in the new toon) or he's already captured and gone (like in TMNT).

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot. So no, he didn't apologize to Raph. I can understand that now. Raph's views can be so warped because he's so hellbent on thinking in opposites--that Leo doesn't care about him or that Splinter doesn't regard him as highly as Leo or the others. But it's also because Leo doesn't see the vulnerable side of Raph very often that Leo hadn't yet *accepted* the fact that down deep Raph's love for him can (and does) outweigh any and all bitterness or resentment. Their fight proves this to them both. I think Splinter has always had an idea of the scope of Raph's true feelings and isn't as hard on Raph as he could be whereas Leo, like you said, thought their feud in this film was just something petty and superficial and therefore is harder on Raph than he should be. It's obvious Leo understands Raph better by the end of the film, and that makes me happy.

While I've always sided with them both, I guess I was more sympathetic to Raph in the end just because not many other people seemed to give Raph's anger/hurt real understanding or consideration (and because he obviously *does* have a unique bond with Leo that's too complicated for words) but Leo definitely has his moments, ya gotta love him. Leo just rocks and always has. Period. I watched "Tales of Leo" again today and found myself with tears in my eyes like an idiot during Raph's breakdown when Leo was hurt. Why do you continually do this to yourself (and me), Raph? STOP BEING A STUBBORN DOLT!

...and you've seen TMNT 7 times!?!?!?! Wheeee! Lucky girl!

[PrivateRadio]

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

The reason for that is he doesn't believe it so much as that he's saying it to get Raph worked up. That's WHY he says it, and why it comes out the way it does. Leo is the stronger fighter (as always, because of Raph's lack of control more than actual skill, a great example of this is in part 3 of Return to New York which I just re-read last night actually), and even lays a sword on Raph's shoulder during the fight. The entire encounter serves to show WHY Leo is the leader, in a film that otherwise never really does.

He teaches Raph his lesson, and Raph knows it when he talks to Splinter.

I'd bet some of the stuff that was cut explains what's going on in that scene even more explicitly.

[Seiza]

Originally Posted by jenna

Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo.

Seventh time's the charm, eh?

Originally Posted by jenna

Also notable about this episode is that of all the brothers, Raphael fails most miserably at being the leader. He falls at the first hurdle.

Funnily enough, Raph in 2k3 toon seemed the opposite--when Leo wasn't around, he seemed to subconsciously step up. I'm thinking of the ep where Saki is trying to enlist Leo, and Raph stops his brothers from intervening. And just... generally across episodes, I guess, they come across as near-equals.

But I think that movie!Raph got a lot of his frustrations mixed up--he wants to move on his own, yet wants to lead, yet doesn't like taking orders... You can't have both: if you're the leader, you MUST answer to Splinter; if you're a lone ranger, you don't have anyone to lead.

For Raph, I felt it all boiled down to Splinter's love: he wanted to earn it, saw two ways of doing it, but neither worked out for him--he wasn't the leader (and in his mind, the favourite) and it appalled him to have to follow the leadership of someone he resents (nevermind that Leo's orders are extensions of Splinter's orders...). So he's got all his hurt in him that he doesn't know how to fix, and takes it out on the one who seemed to balance it out: Leo.

Originally Posted by Raphamel

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot.

I get that vibe off him too, that he feels his attempts at... er, friendliness?... is always being shrugged off by Raph (heh, remember the awkwardness when Leo first returns? And the snippets from the novel that I believe Rooish posted elsewhere), and it shaves off a little bit more of his patience day by day.

Their visions are a limited: Raph feels Leo's the favourite son/student, while Leo likely feels Raph gets away with too much.

I felt the movie also sorta acknowledged the resentment briefly with his "I'm the only one that has to be responsible?!" line-- it's like eldest!speak for "Why won't you pull your weight? Why won't you help me? Can't you see I'm doing this for everyone, including you?" (Oh, wait, Leo does say that last bit out loud... :3)

It's the inability of both turtles to walk in the other's shoes. So Leo can't see things from Raph's view, maybe even takes everything he says at face value-- up to and including "We got along just fine without you!"

What really pains me, though, is that he didn't get to see Raph's chasing him after he was captured or his confession to Splinter... in fact I can't remember a time where Leo really gets to "experience" Raph's true feelings for him. Whenever Raph shows his vulnerable side, Leo is hurt or unconscious (like in the new toon) or he's already captured and gone (like in TMNT).

That's so true. Well, that's just Raph's style with everyone, I think... Although Mikey did get to savour some Raph!concern when he faked his unconsciousness in a 2k3 toon episode.

But as for Leo, yeah, I don't recall him knowing just how much Raph loses it when he gets hurt. It's definitely not something Raph would talk about later, it's not something I can see him talking about with Don and Mike; and if Splinter's actions are any indication, he doesn't get involved in Leo and Raph's dynamics. So it's not surprising Leo can honestly believe his own brother hates him. (Which is a shame since I think it would teach him not to take Raph's words literally when the latter is mouthing off in anger.)

Originally Posted by aabxx

All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter).

(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

And I still think that Leo's problem wasn't pride, at least to the extent that "the world revolves around him." Other than his "I'm better than you" line, all I've seen from him through the movie is self-doubt, and more events that feed fire to that self-doubt. I felt his "issue" in the movie leaned more towards teamwork: I'm still wondering how did he got the idea that his brothers could function without him?

[Risawn]

Ah yes, why do they have to cut these scenes?

I got a lucky second showing of Ninja Turtles today, I was hoping to catch it one last time in the theaters. The first time I was just watching the movie and I think being in a theater full of screaming kids and noticing the total disregard for Physics and Astronomy really bugged me when I initially viewed it. This time I focused on other things, accepted the plotline involving Stars aligning and focused on the character development. I must say, I enjoyed it much more the second time around.

I also paid more attention to this fight and really got into it. I always loved all the turtles, but I've got a newfound respect for Leo more then I had before.

I'm not going to go into an analysis on the deeper meaning of it, but I got to say, I'm really impressed with the animation and character design, which I also paid closer attention to this time around.

Did I totally jump around there or am I just surfing the forums late again?

[PrivateRadio]

Originally Posted by Seiza

(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

Yeah, the comics generally implied that Leo was the strongest fighter.

I haven't read the majority of them in a long time (I only actually own a few issues) but a really interesting thing that I believe I actually remember and am not just making up, is that Michelangelo is said to have the most potential of the four if he were more focused/disciplined.

Raph is generally the second strongest fighter but the anger control thing always comes up.

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by Seiza

(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

Again, I'm saying that this is all presumptious. What he learned in TMNT 4 when sent for further training was just how dependent he was on his brothers, his training wasn't effective without them, which goes for the others as well. And in 2k3, every turtle got their skills built up and shown off, especially the Lost Season, they were ALL chosen by the Tribunal, and they accomplished the same thing the Tribunal did.
And I pointed out, every turtle has a certain advantage over their brothers (and canon says it), Raphael=strength // Leonardo=skill/field-strategy // Michaelangelo=speed // Donatello=intellegence/scientific-strategy. Any of these adavantages can prove to be good for victory in battle on any given day.

[aabxx]

I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

*SPOILERS*

Their were some indications in the OT that Leo was the best fighter...
- He's litterally the leader. Seeing as he's not a table top general but leading the fights, there's a good probability he's the best fighter.
- In follow the leader the team looks lost without Leo. And just when they're in some serious trouble with a robot, Leo comes in and kicks the robot's sorry ass.
- Raphael is sometimes portrayed as a bit cowardly. Leo is almost always the opposite.
- The same goes for Mikey. There is especially one episode where he is left to his own devices and becomes very uncertain of what "little him" can do alone. Leo's the opposite - he regains his selfconfidense when his brothers are in trouble in follow the leader. I might be wrong here as I'm taking this from memory, but in the red sky seasons, I remember Mikey getting stick from the rest of the group because he's become a liabilty to them because of a serious lack of discipline or something. He'd rather have a pizza than train or fight I suppose... Besides, he had the worst weapon to begin with (nunchakus), but to make it worse, he got stuck with the grappling hook later on
- Donatello... mmm... well... he's a geek... I would assume he's more busy inventing things than training. In fact, the OT did on several occasions show that it was Leo that took training most serious. As the rest here, it's only an indication, but it's not too farfetched to assume that Leo being the only turtle in OT who actually cares a lot for the "warrior code" and trains the most,
probably is the best fighter.

In the comics, as someone mentioned, quite early Raph throws Leo into a wall or something one time when Leo tries to stop an angry Raph from leaving. Does not exactly prove much though, does it... in combat situations I've always had this feeling that Leo is the best fighter (like for instance when he finished off "Shredder") but admittedly I've not read enough of the comics and might be biased because of Leo's portrayal in the other mediums. But at least, he's shown off as the leader type and the most disciplined. Certainly, making good decisions is also part of combat and Raph is sometimes shown as doing some really stupid things because of his anger or berserker rage or what have you Raph also seems to have some serious issues with the spiritual side of ninjitsu... which supposdely would put him at an disadvantage in certain combat situations (at least if we listen to Splinter I suppose ). Certainly, Leo seems to be the best ninja but being ninja is a lot more than just fighting so I'm keeping that out of it.

Anyway, Leo and Raph are portrayed as the two best fighters IMO. I would say Leo has the upper hand but someone might disagree. As mentioned, I haven't read enough of the comics anyway.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Raphamel

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot. So no, he didn't apologize to Raph. I can understand that now. Raph's views can be so warped because he's so hellbent on thinking in opposites--that Leo doesn't care about him or that Splinter doesn't regard him as highly as Leo or the others. But it's also because Leo doesn't see the vulnerable side of Raph very often that Leo hadn't yet *accepted* the fact that down deep Raph's love for him can (and does) outweigh any and all bitterness or resentment. Their fight proves this to them both. I think Splinter has always had an idea of the scope of Raph's true feelings and isn't as hard on Raph as he could be whereas Leo, like you said, thought their feud in this film was just something petty and superficial and therefore is harder on Raph than he should be. It's obvious Leo understands Raph better by the end of the film, and that makes me happy.

Yeah, I definitely agree. The novelisation actually makes quite a big thing of Leo's lack of apology. Raph apologises to Leo after rescuing him from the monster cage, and Leo says: "I know" whereas he could easily have said "I'm sorry, too" or something.

I did like how the film did it though. The lack of "I'm sorry"s was less cheesey and there was a mutual understanding between them which was unspoken - in that very heart-rending moment where they just smiled at each other.

I think Leo, in seeing how desperate Raphael had become during the fight and in running away afterwards, recognised the true anguish and understood for the first time. He'll be more tolerant of Raphael in the future so in a way it's a victory for both of them: Raphael learned to see his anger for what it really is, and so did Leonardo.

...and you've seen TMNT 7 times!?!?!?! Wheeee! Lucky girl!

I know!! I'm so proud. My hubby laughed at me and called me a loser. I told him that he was the loser because he can't see the beauty of TMNT and he's missing out. I mean, come on! If you can't cheer yourself up with simple pleasures like a good movie and a hot chocolate, then what will become of you???

[triplexxx]

Originally Posted by aabxx

it's not too farfetched to assume that Leo being the only turtle in OT who actually cares a lot for the "warrior code"

Well, that part is. They all care about the "warrior code" and doing the right thing. Why else would they always be risking their lives for each other and for other innocents?
Splinter raised them all to live honorably, and that's what they do.
No offense to anyone, but anyone who says ALL the turtles aren't actual "warriors" or don't all follow the "warrior code", that's a load of bull****.

And about Leonardo training the most: maybe so, but it's never been clarified exactly how much more he trains. Say the others train 7 hours a day, he might do maybe 7.5-8 hours, which is only an hour more max.

And about him finishing off Shredder, for one thing, in 2k3, the only reason he was able to decapitate Shredder was because of the sword of Tengu, and even then, no turtle ended up getting the glory of actually "killing" him. And remember how the turtles put in some practice with each others' weapons in What A Croc!, you never know, if one of the other turtles had been carrying the Tengu sword, they could've decapitated him had they been given the opportunity.

[Revan]

and what exactly is the warrior code

[Avatar Yuffie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

Technically, real ninjas don't practice this, that's why they're the samurai's enemies in the first place. But I guess that's an exception in the TMNT universe.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Originally Posted by PrivateRadio

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

The reason for that is he doesn't believe it so much as that he's saying it to get Raph worked up. That's WHY he says it, and why it comes out the way it does. Leo is the stronger fighter (as always, because of Raph's lack of control more than actual skill, a great example of this is in part 3 of Return to New York which I just re-read last night actually), and even lays a sword on Raph's shoulder during the fight. The entire encounter serves to show WHY Leo is the leader, in a film that otherwise never really does.

He teaches Raph his lesson, and Raph knows it when he talks to Splinter.

I'd bet some of the stuff that was cut explains what's going on in that scene even more explicitly.

I noticed it. It's like he was forcing himself to say those words. He didn't really mean them, but nothing else was working for him to get through to Raph. So essentially Leo gave him what he wanted to hear, and it worked.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by PrivateRadio

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

This is not the only line that was delivered akwardly. There were different lines throughout the film that sounded off.

Ex) Leo: "Raph if you have some you want to get off yourschell, now's the time."

he seems to run 'your' and 'shell' together and pronounces shell akwardly.

Anyway I don't agree with PR's analysis on Leo's I'm better than you but that's the beauty of opinions.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Leo doesn't think the world revolves around him at all. In fact, if you listen to him, he really doesn't think that highly of himself. There are a lot of times where he thinks he's been a failure, or isn't good enough. You could see when Splinter gave him that medallion after he returned home that he didn't think he even deserved it. He just stood there staring at it like he didn't know what to do with it. And if you notice, sometimes when he knows he's done a good job, getting praise makes him a little embarrassed, as if he's uncomfortable of being called attention to.

Humility is being humble and modest of yourself. He doesn't behave arrogantly, self-righteously, or egotistically as one would think the world revolving around them does. That would imply that he was selfish, and Leo is not by any means selfish. As Splinter said to Raphael though while he had the merits of strength, passion, and loyalty of a great leader, he did not have the humility and compassion to balance it out as Leonardo does.

Agree 100%. Leo's humility in his success is almost to a fault. However, while I don't think that he thinks that the world revolves around him, I do think that Leo does have a little arrogance, but not in a way that contradicts his character. Leo sees his humility as a virtue, (and it is) but he also recognizes Raphael's lack of the virtue. But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

So now is the revelation; that Leo learns Nightwatcher is Raph. It becomes a whole 'nother ball game at this point. Leo can't believe his own brother would be doing something like this. Raph starts on his tirade with Leo. Leo tries to get his brother to see that he's wrong, but nothing is getting through to him in the least. That's when he says something he would never otherwise; "I'm better than you."

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. And after seeing the movie five times, I still think it's out of character. It's super arrogant, which I don't think Leo ostensibly is. I think Leo may think that he's the better fighter amongst his brothers, but it's not something he would ever gloat about or hang over their heads. Now, as to why he said this, here is what I think: Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Leonardo Mystic

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.

Actually, this is incorrect. The fight starts with both of them charging each other, after Raphael initiates the conflict as himself.