i was wondering....... - Page 2

*Cascadia* · 05-13-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swany

Yeah, I watched that one just the other day. I think because the second mutation was pretty much like an illness it was cureable.

I think the first mutation had pretty much reached the point where its irreversable, 15 years is a long time.

Plus it was different mutagens was it not? But I dont actually know if that would be a factor. I've only done High School Biology.

The first one was irreversible...his genes were altered and permanent from the first mutagen.. The 2nd one was like a disease in his case. DNA has the capability to restore and repair itself if it makes a mistake or something is introduced to it such as mutagens. But in Donnie's case, his DNA is a combination of the turtle DNA and whatever was in the original mutagen.

**Jester** · 05-13-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Strictly speaking of the original cartoon, it's perfectly reasonable that the Turtles weren't part rat. By the rules of the Fred Wolf Cartoon/Archie Comics, as soon as you contact the mutagen, you are mutated only into half of the last life form you came into physical contact with. The last life form the baby Turtles came into contact with was the dude that bought them... so they became humanoid Turtles -- Splinter sort of discovered them in mid-transformation, and the last person that touched him was Yoshi.

Yes...but....Yoshi hadn't been most recently with the rats. He cleadned of the boys. He should have almost been a 5th turtle...

*Shark_Blade* · 05-13-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sewer Bull

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

What a scary cover!

It's like Splinter is satan from hell and he unleashed the turtles for his revenge.

*Cascadia* · 05-13-2007, 01:26 PM

I used to have that cover...it is the 5th printing of the very first issue.

*Ninjinister* · 05-13-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenna

I for one believe that every creatue has a soul and that the turtles would have souls... but I remember the post by a fundamentalist Christian group (I know no religious debates here, I'm not judging or dissing) referred to them as soulless abominations or something like that because they were mutants. Well, I'm a 'mutant' too because I have red hair. (red hair is a mutated gene). So I think the argument is quite thin because I know I have a soul!

So that means I dated a mutant chick once? Hot damn!

*gobo* · 05-13-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triplexxx

They've been raised to be spiritual, haven't they? Though I can't say for certain which actual religion they abide to.

They were raised under Buddhist ideals, and Leo seems to be the strongest follower of that tradition among his brothers. The others can't adhere to the ideals of immaterialism. Donnie can't live without his gadgets. Mikey's main interest is fiction, so he might be able to suffice with only campfire stories, but television makes it all so much more convenient and rewarding. And, Raph just isn't enough of a follower to be too involved in religion. I tried to take all interpretations of the characters into account when making these analyses. So, that's how I see it.

*Rooish* · 05-13-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sewer Bull

That reminded me of my favourite TMNT comic cover. Issue #1, fifth print:

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

Wow. I can't really justify Splinter's actions there ... raising the Turtles to risk their lives for the sake of vengeance. Creepy.

Spawn Guy · 05-13-2007, 03:50 PM

Well, at the time it was meant to be a parody of martial arts flicks among other things (I assume). I would hardly say Mirage Splinter was entierly motivated by revenge. He got Mike a bunch of art stuff when they were kids, let them explore an underground world when they were only twelve, and helped out that guy who was being possessed by his ancestor or something. Pretty considerate and honourable acts for someone trying to raise his own assassins. He only let them face the Shredder when he felt they were ready and they actually got the guy on the ropes, so...there you go.

*triplexxx* · 05-13-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobo

They were raised under Buddhist ideals, and Leo seems to be the strongest follower of that tradition among his brothers. The others can't adhere to the ideals of immaterialism. Donnie can't live without his gadgets. Mikey's main interest is fiction, so he might be able to suffice with only campfire stories, but television makes it all so much more convenient and rewarding. And, Raph just isn't enough of a follower to be too involved in religion. I tried to take all interpretations of the characters into account when making these analyses. So, that's how I see it.

Well, there's more to their characters than people think. And Leonardo can be somewhat about materialism too, like the way he feels about his swords; and he's just as capable of being selfish/egotistical as his brothers.
The problem is: some people look at the turtles' stereotypical selves and just take it for granted instead of looking more into it, that's what I do.

But overall, all four of them are very spiritual (as the Lost Season proved), very unselfish/caring for others (considering how much they've all risked their lives for the safety of NYC and other places), and very loyal to their family.

Spawn Guy · 05-13-2007, 04:17 PM

Back on topic for a few seconds (Holy crap, I know), would the mutations really be that predictable? Ignoring the fact the script called for Splinter to be a rat, would his DNA rearrange itself logically? He probably just randomly ended up as a rat but there may be a good 50/50 chance he could have mutated into something else entirely. Also dosen't Leo say at some point that Splinter had been "Mostly" in contact with the rats? Maybe there was just a stronger DNA imprint, or whatever.

Another little theory for the pet rat incarnations: what if he was just a good mimic? He subconsciously took everything Yoshi did in without really getting it and upon mutation everything he needed to know about spirituality, focus, reason etc that would make him a capable martial artist not to mention teacher (Yoshi could have blabbed all that to him because, lets face it, it's cute to talk to your pets) came flooding to the surface. Thus he had the moves and then the know how.

*Buslady* · 05-13-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neutrino

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

I ain't religious but damn straight they have souls. All animals do. And nobody can tell me different.

weredog · 05-13-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buslady

I ain't religious but damn straight they have souls. All animals do. And nobody can tell me different.

One of the worst moments of my life was as a kid asking my preacher if animals went to heaven. When he said no, it felt like he punched me in the gut. Luckily I learned to think for myself. Dogs are very important to me. If they weren't allowed in Heaven, they couldn't very well call it Heaven. I had to have my 16 year old Cocker Spaniel April ( and yes she was named after TMNT april ) put to sleep a couple days ago. If anyone was to tell me she wasn't in Heaven now I'm afraid I'd have to hurt them.

Spawn Guy · 05-13-2007, 07:03 PM

Don Bluth would never lie to us.

*Tinuvielsdreams* · 05-13-2007, 07:11 PM

awwww...True story Spawny
I don't know that I have much to add to this thread but sorry about your dog weredog

*Revan* · 05-13-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooish

Wow. I can't really justify Splinter's actions there ... raising the Turtles to risk their lives for the sake of vengeance. Creepy.

ha you better believe it!

*Rooish* · 05-13-2007, 07:27 PM

I'm sorry I'm really off-topic ...

... but yeah, Neutrino, Sewer Bull ... that does put a really dark spin on TMNT, or Splinter at least, that is kind of overlooked, even in later Mirage comics.

And Leonardo even says something like, "Splinter wasn't perfect, but he was as close to it as anyone could get."

*odupianist* · 05-14-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Theory 2) The radioactive chemical waste of the TCRI Utroms is actually a hyper-evolution agent. When the Turtles are exposed to it, it's the equivalent to four red-earred sliders suddenly receiving millions of years of evolution.

I thought the Mutagen was part of the rearrangement of subatomic particles when tranpsorting on the Transmat. That's how I understood it. Isn't that what Mortu says in the 2k3 series?

And on the topic of the old cartoon, I thought the same thing, I just gave up trying to figure it out. While yes Yoshi spent a lot of time with the rats, he had most recently been with the turtles (wiping them off and all), so therefore (on the basis of the theory behind the OT ooze) he should have been part turtle. If Yoshi had been with the rats so much, shouldn't the turtles have been affected just a little? Wait, maybe that's how they got so nimble, picking up on some rat qualities. Who knows lol

*Scandia* · 05-14-2007, 08:12 AM

I did not interpret that cover in a malevolous way at all. I still like it a lot. But I see it as Splinter being both the teacher and the father of the TMNT. That he is proud of the sons he raised and the students he trained.

The revenge aspect may not be ideal, but it is still understandable. Splinter raised his turtles with love and taught them a lot of good things- so something good came out of it. Nobody's perfect.

I DO have serious issues with the Bushido aspect of what Leo told Shredder to do to gain his honor. I know there is such thing as cultural relativism- but according to the values of my religion, that is the worst thing a person can do. I understand that it was the way Splinter was raised and knew nothing else- but it is still something I cannot accept.

As for their having souls- well of course they do. And I cannot believe that someone was outraged and confused Buddhism with witchcraft (or worse- devil worship) and thus forbad his or her kids to watch TMNT simply because of that.

*gobo* · 05-14-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scandia

I DO have serious issues with the Bushido aspect of what Leo told Shredder to do to gain his honor. I know there is such thing as cultural relativism- but according to the values of my religion, that is the worst thing a person can do. I understand that it was the way Splinter was raised and knew nothing else- but it is still something I cannot accept.

Well, you see, the idea behind how they believe a warrior can regain honor by commiting seppuku is that he or she is ridding the world of the disgrace and failure that the warrior has brought upon himself and everyone who was counting on them. And, in this case, I assume having The Shredder rid the world of the evil he embodied was also another way of looking at it. In my opinion, that's slightly less dishonorable a suggestion because it isn't a selfish coward's way out of humiliation. It was more like self-imposed execution for unforgivable crimes of the distant past.

*Scandia* · 05-14-2007, 10:43 AM

Sorry, but according to my religious beliefs, that is NOT the way to go. The right thing to do is to turn your life around and atone for your past crimes- none of which are totally unforgivable. Which anyone and everyone can do. Suicide would be giving up and just stating that there is no hope for you- which is NOT true.

05-13-2007, 01:26 PM	#24
Cascadia Oregonian in heart & soul Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,731	I used to have that cover...it is the 5th printing of the very first issue. __________________ Formally known as Scientific freak

05-13-2007, 03:50 PM	#28
Spawn Guy Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Earth 616 Posts: 1,481	Well, at the time it was meant to be a parody of martial arts flicks among other things (I assume). I would hardly say Mirage Splinter was entierly motivated by revenge. He got Mike a bunch of art stuff when they were kids, let them explore an underground world when they were only twelve, and helped out that guy who was being possessed by his ancestor or something. Pretty considerate and honourable acts for someone trying to raise his own assassins. He only let them face the Shredder when he felt they were ready and they actually got the guy on the ropes, so...there you go. __________________ *THE TECHNODROME'S LITTLE YELLOW BOX LOVER* madpiratebunny (19:26:51): oh goodness, I've got an idea SpawnGuyThing (19:26:57): Do tell madpiratebunny (19:27:02): nononono madpiratebunny (19:27:05): no telling SpawnGuyThing (19:27:10): ... SpawnGuyThing (19:27:27): But I'm the imaginery friend you always wanted SpawnGuyThing (19:27:36): Your supposed to tell me everything

05-13-2007, 04:17 PM	#30
Spawn Guy Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Earth 616 Posts: 1,481	Back on topic for a few seconds (Holy crap, I know), would the mutations really be that predictable? Ignoring the fact the script called for Splinter to be a rat, would his DNA rearrange itself logically? He probably just randomly ended up as a rat but there may be a good 50/50 chance he could have mutated into something else entirely. Also dosen't Leo say at some point that Splinter had been "Mostly" in contact with the rats? Maybe there was just a stronger DNA imprint, or whatever. Another little theory for the pet rat incarnations: what if he was just a good mimic? He subconsciously took everything Yoshi did in without really getting it and upon mutation everything he needed to know about spirituality, focus, reason etc that would make him a capable martial artist not to mention teacher (Yoshi could have blabbed all that to him because, lets face it, it's cute to talk to your pets) came flooding to the surface. Thus he had the moves and then the know how. __________________ *THE TECHNODROME'S LITTLE YELLOW BOX LOVER* madpiratebunny (19:26:51): oh goodness, I've got an idea SpawnGuyThing (19:26:57): Do tell madpiratebunny (19:27:02): nononono madpiratebunny (19:27:05): no telling SpawnGuyThing (19:27:10): ... SpawnGuyThing (19:27:27): But I'm the imaginery friend you always wanted SpawnGuyThing (19:27:36): Your supposed to tell me everything

05-13-2007, 07:03 PM	#33
Spawn Guy Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Earth 616 Posts: 1,481	Don Bluth would never lie to us. __________________ *THE TECHNODROME'S LITTLE YELLOW BOX LOVER* madpiratebunny (19:26:51): oh goodness, I've got an idea SpawnGuyThing (19:26:57): Do tell madpiratebunny (19:27:02): nononono madpiratebunny (19:27:05): no telling SpawnGuyThing (19:27:10): ... SpawnGuyThing (19:27:27): But I'm the imaginery friend you always wanted SpawnGuyThing (19:27:36): Your supposed to tell me everything

05-13-2007, 07:27 PM	#36
Rooish Devil's Advocate Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 2,130	I'm sorry I'm really off-topic ... ... but yeah, Neutrino, Sewer Bull ... that does put a really dark spin on TMNT, or Splinter at least, that is kind of overlooked, even in later Mirage comics. And Leonardo even says something like, "Splinter wasn't perfect, but he was as close to it as anyone could get." __________________ Thanks evan2000 for the sig!

05-13-2007, 07:11 PM	#34
Tinuvielsdreams Nothing without passion Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,722	awwww...True story Spawny I don't know that I have much to add to this thread but sorry about your dog weredog

05-14-2007, 08:12 AM	#38
Scandia Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,265	I did not interpret that cover in a malevolous way at all. I still like it a lot. But I see it as Splinter being both the teacher and the father of the TMNT. That he is proud of the sons he raised and the students he trained. The revenge aspect may not be ideal, but it is still understandable. Splinter raised his turtles with love and taught them a lot of good things- so something good came out of it. Nobody's perfect. I DO have serious issues with the Bushido aspect of what Leo told Shredder to do to gain his honor. I know there is such thing as cultural relativism- but according to the values of my religion, that is the worst thing a person can do. I understand that it was the way Splinter was raised and knew nothing else- but it is still something I cannot accept. As for their having souls- well of course they do. And I cannot believe that someone was outraged and confused Buddhism with witchcraft (or worse- devil worship) and thus forbad his or her kids to watch TMNT simply because of that.

05-14-2007, 10:43 AM	#40
Scandia Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,265	Sorry, but according to my religious beliefs, that is NOT the way to go. The right thing to do is to turn your life around and atone for your past crimes- none of which are totally unforgivable. Which anyone and everyone can do. Suicide would be giving up and just stating that there is no hope for you- which is NOT true.