Newer interview with Murph

[odupianist]

They are faithful to a degree I think. Not 100% I agree, but still some what faithful I think.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by odupianist

They are faithful to a degree I think. Not 100% I agree, but still some what faithful I think.

I'd say allot of them Are Faithfull just very very very very watered down.
Well besides the whole Rat King Story, And city at war.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

The Shredder Strikes Back and The King, maybe Nobody's Fool, are the only episodes that come to mind that come close to being 100% accurate to the way the comic versions were.

I would say that there are a lot more than that.

And yes, there are some major differences, and yeah it is a bit "watered down." But for a cartoon show, I think they did pretty damn good. I mean come on, Leo actually cut's the Shredder's head off! Cut's his head off! ...in a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

Not to turn this into a 2k3 debate thread, but what I really loved about the show was how it took the comics (many of which are very disjoint) and linked them together so that they were one cohesive unit. Like when they did I, Monster and it turns out that...

Spoiler:

...the Rat King was Bishop's superhuman prototype built using Splinter's DNA.

That was awesome! (Even if the comic explanation is much different.)

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

I would say that there are a lot more than that.
And yes, there are some major differences, and yeah it is a bit "watered down." But for a cartoon show, I think they did pretty damn good. I mean come on, Leo actually cut's the Shredder's head off! Cut's his head off! ...in a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

I hate to get nitpicky here but he didn't exactly cut off Shredder head like he did in the comics he cut off a robots head something they did to foot soldiers in many episodes of the old toon.
I will admit I was shocked untill I saw the body smarking and get up and walk away with the head. It was cool and all but it's not the same destroying a robot body compaired to chopping of a human or clone version of shredders head.

[Andrew NDB]

Some of the eps are somewhat similar or true to their counterpart comic's spirit, though for the most part it's really it's own thing -- toned way down and with a clear merchandising/toy agenda -- with a plenty of homages to the Mirage comics. But that's all the similarities are, really... homages.

Except for the King episode. While it added a bit of this or that, the heart and story were nearly identical to the Don special. Got a good kick out of watching it.

It's cool, though. The 4Kids show is pretty much as ballsy and sound a TMNT cartoon as you could ever hope to see on a mass-market network for children. Boiling the first couple of seasons of the 4Kids stuff down to the raw, story-critical episodes and plot points, we'd get a movie just as good or better (creatively) than the original 1990 movie, I think.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

I hate to get nitpicky here but he didn't exactly cut off Shredder head like he did in the comics he cut off a robots head something they did to foot soldiers in many episodes of the old toon.
I will admit I was shocked untill I saw the body smarking and get up and walk away with the head. It was cool and all but it's not the same destroying a robot body compaired to chopping of a human or clone version of shredders head.

Well...duh. But it wasn't revealed to the audience that the Shredder was just a robot until after the decapitation. So at the time, he could have easily been thought of as human. People may have had their suspicions but it wasn't 100% confirmed. So I think it's a somewhat different situation than what the turtles were doing to the Foot in the 1987 cartoon, even if it was inherently the same.

And what about in Exodus when they all get the crap kicked out of them? Like when Karai accidentally impaled Leo and it makes that sickening noise...that was hardcore for a cartoon man. And what about when Agent Bishop gets impaled on a meat hook?! You could argue that he is cyborg-ish, but still mostly human. Anyway, my point isn't that it's on the same level as the comics, just that for a Saturday Morning cartoon, it really pushed the limits of violence.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Some of the eps are somewhat similar or true to their counterpart comic's spirit, though for the most part it's really it's own thing -- toned way down and with a clear merchandising/toy agenda -- with a plenty of homages to the Mirage comics. But that's all the similarities are, really... homages.

I would say that the similarities are a little more than just "homages." I mean they both have plot points that are exactly the same. But they did also have their major differences and I do agree that it was its own thing for the most part (not that it was a bad thing.) And the merchandising thing didn't really bother me. At least not too much. Things like the Battleshell I felt were appropriate. The only time it made me was when they had the monster catching gear and the jetpacks. I mean, it's like they weren't even trying to be subtle.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Well...duh. But it wasn't revealed to the audience that the Shredder was just a robot until after the decapitation. So at the time, he could have easily been thought of as human. People may have had their suspicions but it wasn't 100% confirmed. So I think it's a somewhat different situation than what the turtles were doing to the Foot in the 1987 cartoon, even if it was inherently the same.

They would have never let the real thing air on tv that's how you could know it wasn't a real person. And like said I was even shocked at first but knew they wouldn't get away with such a thing on TV let alone a kids show.
Also in the Old school show the turtles themselves didn't even know the foot where robots until it was said pretty much in the same way they found out shredder as in the 2k3 show. "Clang" "Did you just say clang?" "Dude these guys are robots!" or something like that you get my point.

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

And what about in Exodus when they all get the crap kicked out of them? Like when Karai accidentally impaled Leo and it makes that sickening noise...that was hard-core for a cartoon man. And what about when Agent Bishop gets impaled on a meat hook?! You could argue that he is cyborg-ish, but still mostly human. Anyway, my point isn't that it's on the same level as the comics, just that for a Saturday Morning cartoon, it really pushed the limits of violence.

Getting the hell beating out of you is hardly bloody cuts, heads being cut off, etc.
Sure that's wonderful and all especially since the good guys hardly ever have anything bad happen to them in TV shows.
And yeah that entire Karai sword thing annoys me to no end she obviously got Leo in a soft spot yet only a chuck of his shell is missing...nice.
Also in almost everyone favorite episode Same As It Never Was you can tell they wanted to do some crazy things but the episode seems to be censored to hell and back..making all the things happening look lame and cheesy.
Btw in that episode where Bishop happens to land on a hook I'm pretty sure the fluid on it was either green or black.
The Bishop one is a great example but Bishop isn't from the comics now is he? That's what we're talking about here The comics being adapted to TV form don't lose sight of that.
You know it's funny you've got me thinking even more now how come they can pull off gruesome things in episodes that aren't based on comic episodes yet in new story's like ones related to Bishop, Baxter, or the rat king they can. Something to really think about.
In fact those episodes are my favorite episodes.
I just find it funny when watching something like the Power Puff Girls it's allowed to have more gore, blood, and violance in it than something like the TMNT.
Oh Well I'm not Complain about the show infact I love 2k3 but I enjoy the comics allot more.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

They would have never let the real thing air on tv that's how you could know it wasn't a real person. And like said I was even shocked at first but knew they wouldn't get away with such a thing on TV let alone a kids show.
Also in the Old school show the turtles themselves didn't even know the foot where robots until it was said pretty much in the same way they found out shredder as in the 2k3 show. "Clang" "Did you just say clang?" "Dude these guys are robots!" or something like that you get my point.

That’s true. I mean, anyone with enough experience watching television would know that they wouldn’t allow death in that manner to air in a kids show. (Although on the other hand they did have Zog die a fiery death...hmmm...well, that was off screen so that’s a little different I suppose.)
However (#1) It was still awesome , (#2) even if the intelligent audience members knew something was up, the turtles still thought Shredder was human, and Leo cut his head off anyway thinking that it would kill him. And that fact alone makes me feel all warm inside. To me what really counts is the perception of what is going on in a movie/show at the time. Because the first time watching it, I wasn’t expecting him to actually do it. And when he does do it, there is that small frame of time right before you realize that it’s probably fake where you’re going “HOLY $#!&!!!” I’m not going to let it take away from the experience I had just because I was able to rationalize that it was a trick.

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Getting the hell beating out of you is hardly bloody cuts, heads being cut off, etc.

I don’t know man, Mikey had both his legs broken. Like, when it happened, I actually cringed, but broken bones just give me the hee bee jeebies. I’d take a nasty cut over broken legs any day...unless of course it was fatal.

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Sure that's wonderful and all especially since the good guys hardly ever have anything bad happen to them in TV shows.
And yeah that entire Karai sword thing annoys me to no end she obviously got Leo in a soft spot yet only a chuck of his shell is missing...nice.

Heh, and how did that even work? When she stabs him it doesn’t even look like it goes through his shell! Nor is there any evidence of it being shorn off as he falls.

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Btw in that episode where Bishop happens to land on a hook I'm pretty sure the fluid on it was either green or black.

There’s actually nothing on the hook, but I think there may be black or purple stuff on his coat when he’s climbing up the ladder. But this is in the same vein as the Shredder thing. You know Bishop isn’t going to be mangled and crippled for life because this is a kid’s show. But the mere fact that it happened I was like, “WHOA!” Then shortly thereafter, “Damn, he’s probably just a cyborg or something.”

Originally Posted by Putrescent

The Bishop one is a great example but Bishop isn't from the comics now is he? That's what we're talking about here The comics being adapted to TV form don't lose sight of that.

Are we? Crud, I think we’re actually arguing two different points here. Sorry about that.

Well I totally admit that they had to hold back. I agreed with your “watered down” comment in my initial post. I certainly don’t think 2k3 is the comics in cartoon form. Otherwise it’d be on HBO or maybe late night Cartoon Network. But what I am saying is that for a Saturday morning cartoon (and I can not stress that part enough), I think they did a damn good job getting it as close to the comics both in violence and atmosphere as they possibly could have, considering the constraints they had. And this includes content taken directly from the comics as well as new content created solely for the toon. Could they have done better without crossing the line? I think so. For example, they could have removed some of the cheesy things set up for figure variations. But for a lot of things, I think they really pushed the envelope. You may have a differnet opinion, but I know I was certainly impressed. The only thing in the same league that comes close to the maturity level of TMNT 2k3 in my opinion is Gargoyles.

Originally Posted by Putrescent

I just find it funny when watching something like the Power Puff Girls it's allowed to have more gore, blood, and violance in it than something like the TMNT.
Oh Well I'm not Complain about the show infact I love 2k3 but I enjoy the comics allot more.

Heh, it’s been a long time since I’ve seen any Power Puff girls. Was it really that graphic? My guess is because the animation was just so...caricatured and cartoony, that it wouldn’t have had the impact had it been done in TMNT since it was much more realistically drawn. Plus, TMNT is a much more serious show than Power Puff Girls. Heh, have you ever seen any Ren & Stimpy? Looking back today, what that show got away with blows my mind.

[Roseangelo]

Originally Posted by Janus Prospero

Heh, and how did that even work? When she stabs him it doesn’t even look like it goes through his shell! Nor is there any evidence of it being shorn off as he falls.

Couldn't resist.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Couldn't resist.

LOL! I was worried this was going to be a video clearly showing that part of Leo's shell getting sliced off. But this is much better. He he...

If would have been funnier if Raph had stabbed Karai afterwards. Then they could have started the music again.

[Spitfire]

The liquid coming out of Bishop is blue I paused it once to see.

And yeah the show can be edgy but that's not my point at all. My point was the show is far from accurate to the comics. I love it still don't get me wrong just after recently reading the Volume 1,2, and most of 3 runs of the comic series I don't see the show being as accurate as I once thought.

While on the subject, one of the majorly watered down characters is Zog. In the comic they let him stay in that poisoned state and don't do anything to help him breath. He slowly goes insane and in the process butchers tons of Foot Soldiers. Then he gets wasted at the hands of the clones, who make sense in the comic by the way. Also in that same arc Leo and Raph have a pretty intense fight which isn't seen in the cartoon version. Raph almost dies, the Leo Shredder fight is awesome, it's just so much better then the cartoon episodes.

My main problem with Laird's comic to toon adapts is he drags them out to long. Turtles In Space is one of the most boring arcs I've ever watched and after reading the comic version, including the Fuigitoid one shot, I see it could have been way shorter and would have been way better if it was. That's what Laird did to Zog. Zog could have been in the Return To New York arc instead they had him in a new story they made.

On that same note City At War could have stood to be a little longer.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

And yeah the show can be edgy but that's not my point at all. My point was the show is far from accurate to the comics. I love it still don't get me wrong just after recently reading the Volume 1,2, and most of 3 runs of the comic series I don't see the show being as accurate as I once thought.

Yeah, sorry. I got a little distracted explaining why I thought decapitation was cool.

But yeah, they did change a lot. I wouldn't make the blanket statement that they are "faithful to the comics" but they are certainly heavily inspired by the comics in that they take a lot of the story arcs from them.

I originally took your comment as “OMG The cartoon is nothing like the comics and therefore it fails at being any good!” But looking back, that probably isn’t the case. I mean, if you’re disappointed that they didn’t follow the comics more closely, I can understand that. As you point out a lot of the stuff is blatantly out of order/reworked/toned down, but to me that never really took away from the cartoon, especially since what we got is better than anything I ever imagined that we'd be getting from a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

While on the subject, one of the majorly watered down characters is Zog. In the comic they let him stay in that poisoned state and don't do anything to help him breath. He slowly goes insane and in the process butchers tons of Foot Soldiers. Then he gets wasted at the hands of the clones, who make sense in the comic by the way. Also in that same arc Leo and Raph have a pretty intense fight which isn't seen in the cartoon version. Raph almost dies, the Leo Shredder fight is awesome, it's just so much better then the cartoon episodes.

Yeah, the clones made very little sense in the new toon, compared to the comics. I kinda rationalized that the Shredder’s body is biotechnology, and in an attempt to make a new one, the bio part got messed up, so they just turned them into cyborgs or something...I don’t know. I could probably come up with a better explanation in pursuit of “The Grand Game” but it’d be tough.
And I wouldn’t have minded seeing more Raph and Leo conflict myself.

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

My main problem with Laird's comic to toon adapts is he drags them out to long. Turtles In Space is one of the most boring arcs I've ever watched and after reading the comic version, including the Fuigitoid one shot, I see it could have been way shorter and would have been way better if it was. That's what Laird did to Zog. Zog could have been in the Return To New York arc instead they had him in a new story they made.

Well I’ve only watched through the full series once, save for the first half of season 1, which I’ve seen twice due to the recent DVD release. I don’t remember ever being bored, then again that could change if I watch it again. Personally one of my favorite parts of the new toon was the long continuing story arcs. However I did watch the episodes back to back. I can certainly imagine it being frustrating if one were watching them week to week and had to wait forever just to move the plot along.

Originally Posted by Spitfire666xXxXx

On that same note City At War could have stood to be a little longer.

True that.

[odupianist]

Watered down is an excellent way of putting it. I think Exodus is one of the most violent episodes, but it'snot as violent as it could have been if it was on another station like Comedy Central for example (no I'm not saying CC would be the best place to air a more adult cartoon of TMNT, I just picked one). I also like how they made the Rat King Bishop's clone. I enjoy how they tie things together in this series (like Hun and Garbageman).

I think the reason they didnt do the Raph Leo conflict in RtNY was because they were stressing the unified family again. Leo just got his butt whooped and now they were pushing the family quality.

[Roseangelo]

IMO the Turtles in Space adaptation was fine; it was when they got back to Earth and fought the Triceratons for four or five more episodes, something that was 100% new and not from a comic book, that it got extremely tiring. That's actually the point in time where I realized just how tired I was of the extreme amount of sci-fi that was turning up in TMNT (both the TV series and the comics). For now, the fewer Triceratons I see, the better.

City at War was kinda a waste of the title.

However, to be a faithful adaptation does not mean it has to be an exact adaptation.

Oh, and if you watch Neil's Anime Next panel videos, it's actually said in one of those (the second one, maybe?) that someone got fired because of the Shredder decapitation in RTNY. And that SAINW did end up extremely watered down from the original concept.

I personally like that, for the most part, the series isn't just a straight adaptation of the comics. I mean, how boring would that be? Knowing exactly what's going to happen every week? And now at this point in time I'd rather have more brand new stories than more of the recycled old ones.

[darthsmozers]

What I don't understand is how his comments about The Forever War seemingly directly contradict what Dan Berger said just a couple of weeks ago about it looking like a 25th anniversary item.

Posted by Putrecent a couple weeks ago, from an email sent by Dan Berger:

"As of today it looks like it may be part of the 25th anniversary
celebration and won't be released until 2009.

Thanks for writing!

Cheers!
Dan Berger "

[The Shelf]

Well, "As of today" and "may" seem like pretty good indicators to me. His reasonably sure "2009" is only a logical conclusion to "25th anniversary" which he said "may" happen.

Sorry, I hope that didn't sound sarcastic. I didn't mean for it to. Murphy's in charge of all the 25th anniversary stuff, so I'd take his word over Dan's regarding that bit of info. Murphy had probably been going back and forth with the idea, and Dan caught him talking about it during one of those "forth" (positive) moments, but Murphy apparently ended with a "back" (negative) moment regarding Forever War.

EDIT: Speaking of which, who was actually in charge of finishing Forever War? Was it Murphy, or did someone else decide to quit working on it, meaning Murphy had nothing to do with the decision?

[gobo]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

I personally like that, for the most part, the series isn't just a straight adaptation of the comics. I mean, how boring would that be?

I know I'd find it disappointing. There's a difference between being edgy and being unforgiving. I prefer the former.

[Janus Prospero]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

IMO the Turtles in Space adaptation was fine; it was when they got back to Earth and fought the Triceratons for four or five more episodes, something that was 100% new and not from a comic book, that it got extremely tiring. That's actually the point in time where I realized just how tired I was of the extreme amount of sci-fi that was turning up in TMNT (both the TV series and the comics). For now, the fewer Triceratons I see, the better.

Heh, well I think you'd agree that Sci-Fi has always been a major staple in the Turtles Universe. It's something we won't ever get away from, but I do believe in doing things in moderation. I don't know if I like it being so wide spread as it is in Volume 4, with aliens and the turtles being able to walk in broad daylight and all. And I (as well as many others) do think that the story arcs involving urban ninja warfare are the more entertaining/engrossing ones.

But, the amount of Sci-Fi didn't really bother me in the cartoon, it felt appropriate to me for some reason. Sorry, I know that's kind of vague. I haven't really thought about it until now. And even if I felt it did go over board sci-fi wise, it would be really difficult for me not to like that story arc. The introduction of Agent Bishop and that big fight the guys have with him in the lab are some of my favorite moments in the new toon.

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

Oh, and if you watch Neil's Anime Next panel videos, it's actually said in one of those (the second one, maybe?) that someone got fired because of the Shredder decapitation in RTNY. And that SAINW did end up extremely watered down from the original concept.

Whoa really?!?!
I hadn't listened to it yet.
::goes and does so::
Wow...on one hand I'm really glad it made it in, but on the other hand I feel bad for the woman. Especially because it sounds like she was brow beat into going along with it. And does anyone know what "SB&P" is?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by gobo

I know I'd find it disappointing. There's a difference between being edgy and being unforgiving. I prefer the former.

The Mirage TMNT are unforgiving?

[darthsmozers]

Originally Posted by The Shelf

Well, "As of today" and "may" seem like pretty good indicators to me. His reasonably sure "2009" is only a logical conclusion to "25th anniversary" which he said "may" happen.

Sorry, I hope that didn't sound sarcastic. I didn't mean for it to. Murphy's in charge of all the 25th anniversary stuff, so I'd take his word over Dan's regarding that bit of info. Murphy had probably been going back and forth with the idea, and Dan caught him talking about it during one of those "forth" (positive) moments, but Murphy apparently ended with a "back" (negative) moment regarding Forever War.

EDIT: Speaking of which, who was actually in charge of finishing Forever War? Was it Murphy, or did someone else decide to quit working on it, meaning Murphy had nothing to do with the decision?

But I do know Chris Allan has expressed interest in completing it, and he + Dean Clarrain have put out a few issues of Tales. They both certainly can do the work, no problem. So, I don't see where the problem is.