Beast Wars

[kev trashcan]

i loved this show, it was better then transformers. the action and stoyline was awesome, anyone else like this one?

[DrSpengler]

Great series, what else can be said.

The limited number of characters meant plenty of individual character developement and depth and that's really what sold this show, it was so character driven. The story was great and they had everything planned out in advance with a definate direction in mind, but the characters are really what made Beast Wars so fantastic.

I'm also one of the fans who thoroughly enjoyed Beast Machines and thought it was a perfect conclusion to the Beast Wars storyline. There were things about it I disliked, but overall it was the most sophisticated and daring Transformers show we've ever gotten and are likely ever to get.

[Janus Prospero]

Silverbolt FTW!

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

I'm also one of the fans who thoroughly enjoyed Beast Machines and thought it was a perfect conclusion to the Beast Wars storyline. There were things about it I disliked, but overall it was the most sophisticated and daring Transformers show we've ever gotten and are likely ever to get.

I have to strongly disagree. BM was a contrived pile of crap for several reasons, Its characters took major steps backwards from BW, other characters became grim, darkened reflections of themselves. Its not a question of "change" either, change is good when there handled properly, and almost none of them were.

The only thing that I liked about it was Rhinox as Tankor, even if they castrated him in the finale by having Megatron revealed to have been manipulating him AND Optimus all along, it made a great deal of logical sense for the Scientist to understand and appreciate what Megs was doing, and that the Maximals didnt have to take their experiances in the BW that seriously.

Cybertron being completly organic was junk. Keep the Captain Planet/ecological politics out of TF and tell a war story, whatever happened to an alien world that stayed true to what it was?

BM has great concepts, but it is not, and never will be, Transformers except in name and toyline. And Hasbro have been retconning it ever since much to the delight of the majority.

BW, and TRUE Transformers, ended with "Nemesis"

[Jon]

Well, I also thought Beast Machines was a pretty good series.

As for the organic Cybertron stuff, people seem to have it slip their mind that the '80s Transformers series gave clues to this as well (the biggest being the ep. "Dweller in the Depths", when the 'depths' of Cybertron the Decepticons venture into are shown to be stone).

[Meeko]

Beats Wars was awesome. I thought the story and characters had much more depth than in previous Transformers series's. I personally think Beast Machines was horrible though.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Jon

Well, I also thought Beast Machines was a pretty good series.

As for the organic Cybertron stuff, people seem to have it slip their mind that the '80s Transformers series gave clues to this as well (the biggest being the ep. "Dweller in the Depths", when the 'depths' of Cybertron the Decepticons venture into are shown to be stone).

No, I recall that distinctly, and it makes sense in the context of The Quintessons being their creators, but BW is an amalgamation of canons

[Mecha Cow]

Ugly as sin, but I loved it back in the day. Still have some of the toys. Never saw Beast Machines, but from everything I've seen and read the show seems horrible anyway.

[DrSpengler]

As far as the characters in Beast Machines "evolving", I do agree that some of their personality changes weren't so good, while I do appreciate others.

Silverbolt, the shining knight of Beast Wars, reveling in his evil deeds as Jetstorm and then lamenting all the terrible things he did once freed was a perfectly acceptable character change and a rather fascinating one at that.

Cheetor finally growing into his role as a leader (which was being worked up to through Beast Wars), challenging Primal's authority and dropping the whole "Bigbot" thing. It was exactly where the character needed to go and really grew him up. His challenging of Primal was especially required, considering that Primal's entire ideology was WRONG for the whole of season one and nearly cost them the entire planet.

You already mentioned Rhinox which was another character advancement I enjoyed. Although I didn't view his last minute redemption/repentance before his death to be a "wuss out" so much, personally.

Megatron turning into an orangics-loathing tyrant was wonderful and set the show up to be from an angle no Transformers series had been before it: the good guys severaly out numbered and out matched by the badguys. In all the previous shows there were either twice as many good guys as bad guys or relatively equal numbers. In Beast Machines the Maximals were out numbered by Vehicons 1000 to 1 putting them at a distinct disadvantage.

As for the ones I didn't like...

Blackarachnia became much less of an independant woman and began doting on her friends and obsessing over Silverbolt way to much. I can fully understand the change in character, as when stuck on a world entirely populated by machines that want to kill you, teamwork is essential, but she felt severly weakened from the strong female character she was in Beast Wars.

Rattrap. Oh Rattrap. I understnad why he turned into such a dork. They're fighting a war against all odds and Vector Sigma sticks him in a body with no weapons or combat abilities. I suppose that would turn anybody into a pussy. Still didn't like it, though.

The new characters weren't so hot, either. Nightscream was nerve-grating while Botanica, as essential to the plot as she was, felt devoid of any memorable characterization.


As for Techno-Organic Cybertron, I felt it was an interesting concept that got botched by some very poor visuals in the last episode. Cybertron has always had in organic core in all G1 continuities at the time, be they Sunbow or Marvel. In Sunbow you clearly see Cybertron's organic core in "Desertion of the Dinobots" and in Marvel Primus possessed an organic asteroid after coming out of limbo and turned it into Cybertron. So I felt that was perfectly acceptable. But Mainframe didn't design Techno-Organic Cybetron well at all which left a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths since it was the last shot of the show. It definately looked more organic than techno, anyway.


Beast Machines may have been different but it was different in a refreshing sort of way. It told a very dark and very sophisticated story about religious fanaticism, racism and environmentalism. It took a lot of guts to tell the kind of story it did, at least in a children's medium. It wasn't perfect, but I'd gladly take its level of story telling over Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon and Cybertron any day.


And as far as Hasbro trying to "erase" Beast Machines, I don't see that at all. The continuity reboot was primarily Takara's doing and importing Japanese cartoons and dubbing them was just a cost-effective choice on Hasbro's part. Besides, Hasbro had plans to continue the story past Beast Machines, Transtech, which would have had plenty of robot-robots and wouldn't have all been techno-organic bots, but they chose to go the cheaper route, instead.

The only stories I see trying to "erase" Beast Machines are those god awful 3H/Fun Publications comics they release at BotCon and through the fanclub magazine. Those are written by the worst of fanboys, probably the same pricks that sent Marv Wolfman death threats, so I put no stock in them whatsoever.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

The only stories I see trying to "erase" Beast Machines are those god awful 3H/Fun Publications comics they release at BotCon and through the fanclub magazine.

Furman is a prick?

I like some of what they accomplished with "Universe", except turning Blackarachnia evil again, that was stupendously inane and more of a step backwards

Wolfman was sent death threats too? Bob Skir I know got tons for BM, but what did Wolfman do? He brought back Prime.

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Silverbolt, the shining knight of Beast Wars, reveling in his evil deeds as Jetstorm and then lamenting all the terrible things he did once freed was a perfectly acceptable character change and a rather fascinating one at that.

The bumbling, overdramatic hilariously loyal-beyond-sense knight as a brooding, emo NBC logo is something I'll never get. He was too "by the books" as far as brooders go. Blackarachnia's fully developed romantic side was intersesting, but had almost no pay off until the romantic subplot was shoehorned into the final minutes of the finale (they focused too much on Rattrap's stupid romance with Botanica, Megatron, and Optimus in "Endgame")

You already mentioned Rhinox which was another character advancement I enjoyed. Although I didn't view his last minute redemption/repentance before his death to be a "wuss out" so much, personally.

It was vastly rushed, like Homer Simpson walking in for a quick gag on "Lovematic Grandpa", he should have spent the entire episode as Primal's guide inside the Oracle, a reminder of his past to temper his ideological self. Instead he simply says "I'm good again fanboys, happy now?" and leaves.

Blackarachnia became much less of an independant woman and began doting on her friends and obsessing over Silverbolt way to much. I can fully understand the change in character, as when stuck on a world entirely populated by machines that want to kill you, teamwork is essential, but she felt severly weakened from the strong female character she was in Beast Wars.

I thought that was an interesting concept actually. I didnt like the entirety of the execution as much as I loved Rhinox becoming a worthy nemesis. Blackarachnia retained her independence, she just finally realized she had taken Silverbolt for granted for years and wanted her best friend back, and her dismay when he came back as emotionally wrecked as she once was was the ideal irony, and with it came the fear she would never have Silverbolt back again as he was.

BM had interesting concepts, but none of them stuck together. When they did, it was never for long. It played with the audience too many times and changed the landscape of what it was trying to accomplish just to be more "fanboyish"

I would rather have stuck with the Maximals fighting against Megatron and Tankor/Rhinox's forces, with both enemies factions fighting their own little war in between with each other, than have watched the emofest messes with the Sparks, Nightscream's infautation with the annoying Savage/Noble (not taking away from Kaye's tour de force as Noble), Botanica, and Silverbolt now completly unrecognisiable or distinct.

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Furman is a prick?

I like some of what they accomplished with "Universe", except turning Blackarachnia evil again, that was stupendously inane and more of a step backwards

Wolfman was sent death threats too? Bob Skir I know got tons for BM, but what did Wolfman do? He brought back Prime.

Got my writers mixed up, me thinks. You're right, it was Skir not Wolfman.


Fun Publications has been turning around a bit with their stories. I actually enjoyed Dawn of Future's Past (save for the whole Tigatron/Airazor retcon) and the recent Classics story with Bugbite was actually rather amusing. Their Cybertron comic, though, I couldn't really get into at all. I appreciate that they were trying to fill in gaps between episodes of the TV series, but all the Mary Sue characters just about killed it.

There was nothing redeemable about 3H's run, though. The Wreckers storyline was an abomination of fanwank and sadly, Fun Publications has decided to finish it up.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

There was nothing redeemable about 3H's run, though. The Wreckers storyline was an abomination of fanwank and sadly, Fun Publications has decided to finish it up.

I had no clue what was going on at all, and that was from picking up Issue Two. In contrast to that, you had the back-up strip "Dawn of Futures Past" which made COMPLETE sense despite being a second part. Furman is a professional of course, and these guys arent. They just get people to depict their crap well with good artwork (ironicly, the artwork for DOFP is inferior in contrast to Wreckers art, but the story for the latter is far superior)

[ToTheNines]

I was obsessed with Beast Wars, and kinda hated Machines. I'd say BW is my favorite version of Transformers... sure wish the season sets were cheaper

[Time Mistress]

I've always been of two minds about BM.

I think BM is a good show, it's just a lousy Transformers show. If the show had been completely original with no relation to TFs it would have been great, but as another sequel show to the TF franchise it just didn't work in a lot of ways. Organic Cybertron - please no! I did like the development of Cheetor and BA though. But Op and Megs acting like Sisko and Dukat from STS9 was rather strange. I wouldn't say it's the worst TF show ever made though, but I still don't want it in my TF DVD collection.

Loved BW btw! It brought me back into TF collecting.

[kev trashcan]

i never saw beaste machines, but after i buy bw seasons, ima check it out

[Wildcat]

Well what else can be said....except my own 2 cents....

I LOVED!!!!!!! Beast Wars....I still have all my toys from the series too.

Beast Machines is ok...Iv seen a few episodes....but its no where near as good as Beast Wars was.

[kev trashcan]

i think i'd be cool if the made another sequal

[ZariusTwo]

Trust me, you're better off not knowing what they've done with a "sequel"

[DrSpengler]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Trust me, you're better off not knowing what they've done with a "sequel"

You mean The Gathering?

Yeah, that was not so good. Pretty much just a wankfest for all the toys that didn't make it into the cartoon. I'm hoping the sequel is just a little bit better, but I doubt it.

I'm more looking forward to the Beast Wars profile books than the actual Beast Wars comic, which says something right there.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

You mean The Gathering?

Yeah, that was not so good. Pretty much just a wankfest for all the toys that didn't make it into the cartoon. I'm hoping the sequel is just a little bit better, but I doubt it.

Actually, I'm terrified that a time-hopping Galvatron and Beast Wars Neo's Unicron shows up.