tmnt and religio-spirituality

*heretic888* · 10-16-2002, 10:28 PM

tell me..... what do you guys think the tmnt are involved in religiously??

im inclined to think they are Buddhist of some sort, in that they were raised by a Japanese... perhaps with a rich smattering Tantra, Shinto, and Taoism with the Buddha Dharma.

what do you think???

*Skeletoncrew* · 10-17-2002, 12:18 AM

I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him.

Lanagirl · 10-17-2002, 07:41 AM

I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life

I'm joking.
By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father?
His brother's name is not Oroku Nagi in the cartoon though. I'm afraid to make a mistake but in russian version i heard Kacu Osaki-sounds very strange
oh those russian translations

))))

Serena · 10-17-2002, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanagirl

By the way:Is shredder american or japanese?

Shredder's an Asian guy.

**Kali** · 10-17-2002, 08:48 AM

I agree with SC, that they are trying to find their own way. They probably learned from the religions mentions, but as with everything they had, it probably had to be adapted to fit their situation.

Then again, I'm not relgious myself, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

*heretic888* · 10-17-2002, 08:55 AM

"I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him."
-----
But, you have to take into account that several religions, such as Buddhism and some forms of Hinduism, are experiential in nature and the most popular form of religion, such as Islam and Christianity, is based on blind, unquestioning belief. "Relating to" a religion wouldnt be a problem if it is based on experiential processes. And, like I said, the Turtles are most likely Buddhists of some kind.

Humans are only usually 'put on top' in the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman religions. This is not the case in most indigenous and Asian systems of belief. Besides, in a lot of those religions, human beings are 'put on top' because we have a more highly developed/evolved consciousness. This advanced consciousness would apply to the turtles as well, so they too would be 'put on top' because of their humanoid awareness/intelligence.

I doubt Raphael would like ANY religion whatsoever because he is mostly egocentric in reference and wouldnt like anything requiring disciplined concentration (such as meditation) or sociocentric subservience (such as 'following the church').
---------------------------------
"I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life"
------
The goal of Buddhism is to transcend the Wheel of Dharma not to 'get promoted' in it.

Seriously though, the Turtles probably are Buddhists.
---------------------------------
"By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father?"
---------
Oroku Saki is a native of Japan, yes. His brother (in mirage) is Oroku Nagi. Saki's father is never named or mentioned in any tmnt universe.....

**HorseTechie** · 10-17-2002, 11:56 AM

The canon Mirage TMNT I see as beleive in Confucianism... or what ever popular belief that Hamaoto Yoshi and Splinter had. Could also might have been Shintoism, the native religion of Japan. Shintoism is a worship of the gods in Nature. It can appear to be like Buddhism in the ways they worship. But since I hadn't seen Splinter or the Turtles possess a shrine, I'd say they are followers of Confucius. This teaches a moral philosophy and code of behavior based on peace, order, humanity, courage, wisdom, and fidelity. Confucius refused to consider the question if there is a God, but his believers state now of a heavenly harmony which one can attain by nurturing virtues of Knowledge, Patience, Sincerity, Obedience, and the Fulfillment of Obligations between children and parents, subjects and ruler.

Then later during City at War, Leo was leaning toward Buddism and Zen concepts. And Don... he was contemplating God. Nothing was said, but you're left wondering if he was for or against.

Fanfics, on the other hand...

Boy, I have fun there...

*heretic888* · 10-18-2002, 08:58 AM

i dont think so.......

The concepts and principles you refer to are pretty much common to ALL Asian belief systems, particularly martial arts. The philosophical/spiritual backdrop of higher martial arts in Japan is referred to as budo (martial way) and for the ninja it is referred to as ninpo.

Besides, the idea that 'in all the universe, change is the only constant' is specifically Taoist and Buddhist in nature in that it seems to be advocating achieving formless consciousness and natural sponataneous adaptability.... not following a set of rules as seen in Cofucianism and bushido.

And, during the City at War story-arch the major theme was of growing PAST restriciting rules and laws..... both Splinter's 'cannibalism' and the turtles' allying with Karai demonstrated this..... the idea of transcending the sociocentric level altogether.... that is most definitely not Confucianist in nature. Besides, the Turtles (with the possible exception of Leonardo) never really seemed to me as guys that would just shut up and follow the status quo.

And besides, Confucians dont meditate......

**HorseTechie** · 10-18-2002, 10:12 AM

Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this.

Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion. My husband grew up in a Buddhist family, but yet they also believed in the way of Confucious too. At least this is how it is for Korean and Chinese buddhists.

I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there. No reason to get yourself worked up in a knot about it. *shrug*

Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy....

Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons.

*heretic888* · 10-19-2002, 10:37 AM

"Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this."
----------
Leonardo is probably the most 'religious' (dealing with sociocentric belief and subservience to an 'order' or 'law' or 'code') in the sense you are referring to; Michelangelo being the most 'spiritual' (dealing with personal intuitive sensitivity and compassion and the 'transcension' of rules). Raphal is most definitely the least religious AND the least spiritual (being pre-conventional and largely ego-centric in reference), however.

The Buddhism with 'prayer beads' and 'worship to a shrine' that you are referring to is a form of popular, layman Buddhism. Its mostly to provide conciliatory services (in this respect it is very similar to many forms of Christianity) to the largely ignorant masses. "True" Buddhism, however, involves meditative awareness and the evolution of consciousness. The Turtles and Splinter do not seemed to be involved in popular Buddhism, but rather the meditative form.

In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians dont meditate.

-------------------------------------------
"Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion."
-----------
Confucianism is a set of rules and beliefs intended to encourage social harmony and order. Buddhism and Taoism, in their 'true' forms, are not concerned with rules or beliefs but rather the evolution of consciousness via meditative practice. You dont have to beleive in a deity or god to be a 'religion'. Confucianism and Marxism are both religions, for example, where Taoism and Buddhism (in their true forms) are not.
---------------------------------------------------
"I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there."
-------
The way the Turtles lived during the early comics was a stage of development. They were, on the whole, mostly geared towards obeying a set of rules and codes Splinter set forth. It wasnt necessarily Confucian in nature, although there was undoubtedly Confucian influences in the philosophy. In ninpo, this is referring to as the 'omote' level of development, meaning 'outer' or 'shown'.

Later, however, the ninjutsu initiate learns to grow past restricting laws and rules altogether to true spontaneous right action (as it is called in Zen). This is referred to as the 'ura', which means 'inner' or 'hidden', level of development. Both levels take about 20 years to learn (so during City at War the Turtles were beginning to learn the ura level).

I am speaking about the Turtles as a whole here. Michelangelo, for example, however is a bit more postconventional and 'spiritual' than his other brothers so he didnt show as much growth during the City at War storyarch. Leonardo (and to a lesser degree, Donatello), being the most conventional and sociocentric, showed the most change. Raphael never really grasped conventional/sociocentric levels to begin with, so he never could really reach the postconventional.

I should add that Leonardo is more "Buddhist" in words and ideals... whereas Michelangelo is more "Buddhist" in thinking and behavior. One is more 'religous' and one is more 'spiritual'
------------------------------
"Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy....

Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons."
---------
These quotes by Splinter are pretty much common to all higher martial arts, Confucian or not. 'Right thinking' is a specifically Buddhist concept (it is part of the nobel Eightfold path). Disciplining the mind is almost universal among the martial arts (especially so in ninpo). The 'force' which binds them is alien to Confucianism, but well known among more 'internal' martial arts. In Japanese it is usually referred to as kotsu (essence) or ki (spirit). It is what motivates, guides, protects, and binds all spiritual
warriors.
--------------------------
laterz

**HorseTechie** · 10-19-2002, 11:23 AM

Has anyone told you, you'd make a good lawyer?

*heretic888* · 10-19-2002, 11:30 AM

you're the first.

**Kali** · 10-19-2002, 11:42 AM

I think you sound like a text book.

*ducks baps*

*heretic888* · 10-19-2002, 11:43 AM

i'll take that as a compliment and assume you're saying im smart....

**HorseTechie** · 10-19-2002, 06:42 PM

Well.. ya sure like to argue a point into the ground, with supporting evidence.

In all honesty, I actually do agree with the bit that Mike has spiritual potentual.

While I like to stay true to TMNT form in my fanfics, I also like to take their personality and expand on it a little more. Since I'm a Christian, and more familar with it's background than Buddhism... I had reasoned with myself how I could make Mike a someone interested in Chrisitanity. It seemed like an odd thing to other people, that Mike of all of them would go in that direction. But they are only considering his superfical side.

But Mike's not 100% sure about it yet in my fanfic. He's just looking into the Bible, to get ideas on the war of the angels for a story he was writing there. Then it would confuse him. Many of these religious are designed for Human kind, or bent on conquest. No say about animals (like in Zulli's excellent triology). Do they even have the soul, or the chance to also be saved or enlightened by a higher power?

And what is truth, myth, or acceptable? I planned to have Mike then look into Christian history, to understand better the turmoild of evil against good. About the Crusade and martyring. About how Japan was strongly against the missionaries. And then Mike's apprehension of admitting to Splinter he was interested in Christianity.. but feared that Splinter would later betray him.

Then I have my FourHorse man supernatural theory that the whole story is based off of. Damn.. I'll admit I get headaches trying to reason out that theory so it all ties in with Buddhism and martial arts law, etc.

GreenWillow · 10-20-2002, 09:06 AM

~Methinks Heretic has done his homework.

Heretic wrote: In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians don't meditate. icon_razz.gif

~I remember turning the comic sideways and reading all those titles on the bookshelf in #2 and thinking "Oh, wow....these guys know their schtuff!"
And of course, recall in the new TMNT comic that Mike was ribbing Leo about having read _The _Art of_ War_ 20 times or something....
I know several fanfic authors have tried to work one or more turtles into Christanity somehow, but I just don't see how they get there. The "species-centricism" (?) of the "book" religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) pretty much rules out any hope of "salvation" for non-humans. All the "beasts" exist only to serve Mankind in that paradigm. Well, so do the women, but that's another issue ...<ducks baps>

Anyway, yeah. What Heretic said.

~GW

GreenWillow · 10-20-2002, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heretic888

And, during the City at War story-arch the major theme was of growing PAST restriciting rules and laws..... both Splinter's 'cannibalism' and the turtles' allying with Karai demonstrated this..... the idea of transcending the sociocentric level altogether.... that is most definitely not Confucianist in nature. Besides, the Turtles (with the possible exception of Leonardo) never really seemed to me as guys that would just shut up and follow the status quo.

.

~YES! Everyone was changed by the end. But Leo also challenged his own beliefs in City at War. He was the first to accept Karai as a potential ally -- an expediant move perhaps, but certainly a sign he was letting go of the blood feud and battle for Honor which had informed their entire existence from day one. When Raphael asked him "What about Honor?" he said something very uncharacteristic like, "I'm not sure there is any place for Honor in this world." (That may not be the exact quote, but it's close) And he also tells his brothers that he'd gladly die for Splinter, but he's not sure he is willing to give him his life.
That's *growth*, folks!

~GW

*heretic888* · 10-21-2002, 01:56 PM

Your fanfiction sounds like a very interesting read, but I must add that Michelangelo, as the most developed out of the four of them, would probably be the least interested in a dogmatic religion that defines itself on proper belief (such as mainline Christianity or Islam) as opposed to an experiential religion concerning a deepening of oneself (such as Buddhism or Tantra). Out of the four of them, Leonardo would be the most likely candidate for Christendom (although he would probably refuse it due to his upbringing).

The animal vs humans thing would also prove a difficulty fo Mike. That is also probably why he would be more likely to embrace a Buddhism or Taoism philosophy, because "all things are buddha things". That includes turtles. In most forms of Christianity, turtles dont even have souls.

If Michelangelo was to embrace a form of Christianity, it would most likely be some form of mysticism or Gnosticism. He would probably find more inspiration in the writings of John of the Cross or Meister Eckhart as opposed to the synoptics or the myths of the old testament and revelations. He might also have an affinity for the AUTHENTIC letters of Paul (such as Galatians and Romans, as opposed to Timothy and Titus), which mostly deal with spiritual experience as opposed to religous laws ("The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life").

The four horseman tie-in is interesting though..... keep going...

*heretic888* · 10-21-2002, 02:06 PM

Wow, GW you noticed the books just like I did, neh?

I am inclined to agree with your ideas about Christianity and the TMNT. The 'beasts' serve mankind in the Bible, nothing any of the turtles are inclined to agree to....

Your thoughts about Leonardo seem to be right-on, GW. Becuase Leo was primarily at the sociocentric level, he received the most character growth with the City at War theme of throwing off restrictions. Michelangelo grew probably the least in that he was probably already at a postconventional level to begin with, so a 'throwing off rules' theme would have the least to offer him. Unfortunately, Mike is often depicted as a background character and this level of his growth is rarely addressed (something Laird should work on, methinks.....)

Alas, poor Raphael never really entered the sociocentric level to begin with so he received little in the way of growth. I really dont want to piss anybody off by saying this, but Raphael would receive the most growth if he would just be a little bit more like Leo: disciplined, conformist, and sociocentric. Only after embracing sociocentrism and conventionalism can one hope to transcend it (like Mike and, to a lesser degree, Don have).

I loved the City at War.... deep.......

**HorseTechie** · 10-21-2002, 03:29 PM

Ack... just make it harder for me to get this story finsihed, will ya?

Actually, I had Don thinking in the way as you described as for Mike. But that's me... since I had seen more Mirage referances of Don possibly contemplating that mre than the others. (Twilight of the Ring and Mirage Vol 2) The reasoning I had for Mike being the way I imagined him, was from a near death experience from a previous story. So in a sense, he's out of Logical Mirage Context by the time this present fic I'm speaking of comes along.

As far a Leo goes, yeah, I agree. I have read a fic by an adult fan, Aignatious, that shown her unique view of Leo in the future. He had a son that was into Christianity (Seth) visit him... and then his deeper insanities come out. Very intriqueing.

I also have many answers for the forementioned questions I posed above. Romans 10:10-14... this implies that it doesn't matter if you are human, as long as you have a soul that confesses your acceptiance and obedience to Christ. Other answers I'm not admitting here... cause then that'll just ruin the plot!

As for the four horseman theory.. yes. I am stuck in finding a believable theory for this. I wasn't comparing them to the beasts though. But to the four archangelic riders that represent famine, pestilence, war, and the false messiah (antichrist). I named the four Turtles with one of these... and then I speculated that they are like a spirit in a spirit. When they die a supernatural way, they become one of theses dreaded demons.

That was my first idea... it's changing now, the more I think of it. I may just end up making this a crossover with the Lord of the Rings concept. Just have an omnipresent evil that is taking over the world... and it craves especially the TMNT, for they possess a special something the evil wants back.

Yeah.. something like that...

10-16-2002, 10:28 PM	#1
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	tmnt and religio-spirituality tell me..... what do you guys think the tmnt are involved in religiously?? im inclined to think they are Buddhist of some sort, in that they were raised by a Japanese... perhaps with a rich smattering Tantra, Shinto, and Taoism with the Buddha Dharma. what do you think??? __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-17-2002, 07:41 AM	#3
Lanagirl Hench Mutant Join Date: May 2002 Location: Friends are not sent here Posts: 346	i agree I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life I'm joking. By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father? His brother's name is not Oroku Nagi in the cartoon though. I'm afraid to make a mistake but in russian version i heard Kacu Osaki-sounds very strange oh those russian translations))))

10-17-2002, 08:55 AM	#6
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm "I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him." ----- But, you have to take into account that several religions, such as Buddhism and some forms of Hinduism, are experiential in nature and the most popular form of religion, such as Islam and Christianity, is based on blind, unquestioning belief. "Relating to" a religion wouldnt be a problem if it is based on experiential processes. And, like I said, the Turtles are most likely Buddhists of some kind. Humans are only usually 'put on top' in the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman religions. This is not the case in most indigenous and Asian systems of belief. Besides, in a lot of those religions, human beings are 'put on top' because we have a more highly developed/evolved consciousness. This advanced consciousness would apply to the turtles as well, so they too would be 'put on top' because of their humanoid awareness/intelligence. I doubt Raphael would like ANY religion whatsoever because he is mostly egocentric in reference and wouldnt like anything requiring disciplined concentration (such as meditation) or sociocentric subservience (such as 'following the church'). --------------------------------- "I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life" ------ The goal of Buddhism is to transcend the Wheel of Dharma not to 'get promoted' in it. Seriously though, the Turtles probably are Buddhists. --------------------------------- "By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father?" --------- Oroku Saki is a native of Japan, yes. His brother (in mirage) is Oroku Nagi. Saki's father is never named or mentioned in any tmnt universe..... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-18-2002, 08:58 AM	#8
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	confucianism? i dont think so....... The concepts and principles you refer to are pretty much common to ALL Asian belief systems, particularly martial arts. The philosophical/spiritual backdrop of higher martial arts in Japan is referred to as budo (martial way) and for the ninja it is referred to as ninpo. Besides, the idea that 'in all the universe, change is the only constant' is specifically Taoist and Buddhist in nature in that it seems to be advocating achieving formless consciousness and natural sponataneous adaptability.... not following a set of rules as seen in Cofucianism and bushido. And, during the City at War story-arch the major theme was of growing PAST restriciting rules and laws..... both Splinter's 'cannibalism' and the turtles' allying with Karai demonstrated this..... the idea of transcending the sociocentric level altogether.... that is most definitely not Confucianist in nature. Besides, the Turtles (with the possible exception of Leonardo) never really seemed to me as guys that would just shut up and follow the status quo. And besides, Confucians dont meditate...... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-19-2002, 10:37 AM	#10
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem (longish!) "Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this." ---------- Leonardo is probably the most 'religious' (dealing with sociocentric belief and subservience to an 'order' or 'law' or 'code') in the sense you are referring to; Michelangelo being the most 'spiritual' (dealing with personal intuitive sensitivity and compassion and the 'transcension' of rules). Raphal is most definitely the least religious AND the least spiritual (being pre-conventional and largely ego-centric in reference), however. The Buddhism with 'prayer beads' and 'worship to a shrine' that you are referring to is a form of popular, layman Buddhism. Its mostly to provide conciliatory services (in this respect it is very similar to many forms of Christianity) to the largely ignorant masses. "True" Buddhism, however, involves meditative awareness and the evolution of consciousness. The Turtles and Splinter do not seemed to be involved in popular Buddhism, but rather the meditative form. In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians dont meditate. ------------------------------------------- "Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion." ----------- Confucianism is a set of rules and beliefs intended to encourage social harmony and order. Buddhism and Taoism, in their 'true' forms, are not concerned with rules or beliefs but rather the evolution of consciousness via meditative practice. You dont have to beleive in a deity or god to be a 'religion'. Confucianism and Marxism are both religions, for example, where Taoism and Buddhism (in their true forms) are not. --------------------------------------------------- "I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there." ------- The way the Turtles lived during the early comics was a stage of development. They were, on the whole, mostly geared towards obeying a set of rules and codes Splinter set forth. It wasnt necessarily Confucian in nature, although there was undoubtedly Confucian influences in the philosophy. In ninpo, this is referring to as the 'omote' level of development, meaning 'outer' or 'shown'. Later, however, the ninjutsu initiate learns to grow past restricting laws and rules altogether to true spontaneous right action (as it is called in Zen). This is referred to as the 'ura', which means 'inner' or 'hidden', level of development. Both levels take about 20 years to learn (so during City at War the Turtles were beginning to learn the ura level). I am speaking about the Turtles as a whole here. Michelangelo, for example, however is a bit more postconventional and 'spiritual' than his other brothers so he didnt show as much growth during the City at War storyarch. Leonardo (and to a lesser degree, Donatello), being the most conventional and sociocentric, showed the most change. Raphael never really grasped conventional/sociocentric levels to begin with, so he never could really reach the postconventional. I should add that Leonardo is more "Buddhist" in words and ideals... whereas Michelangelo is more "Buddhist" in thinking and behavior. One is more 'religous' and one is more 'spiritual' ------------------------------ "Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy.... Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons." --------- These quotes by Splinter are pretty much common to all higher martial arts, Confucian or not. 'Right thinking' is a specifically Buddhist concept (it is part of the nobel Eightfold path). Disciplining the mind is almost universal among the martial arts (especially so in ninpo). The 'force' which binds them is alien to Confucianism, but well known among more 'internal' martial arts. In Japanese it is usually referred to as kotsu (essence) or ki (spirit). It is what motivates, guides, protects, and binds all spiritual warriors. -------------------------- laterz __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-17-2002, 12:18 AM	#2
Skeletoncrew Foot Elite Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bearing in on your spicy brains Posts: 3,275	I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him. __________________ Adult TMNT fan art and fiction contest Now accepting entries!

10-17-2002, 08:48 AM	#5
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	I agree with SC, that they are trying to find their own way. They probably learned from the religions mentions, but as with everything they had, it probably had to be adapted to fit their situation. Then again, I'm not relgious myself, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

10-17-2002, 11:56 AM	#7
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	The canon Mirage TMNT I see as beleive in Confucianism... or what ever popular belief that Hamaoto Yoshi and Splinter had. Could also might have been Shintoism, the native religion of Japan. Shintoism is a worship of the gods in Nature. It can appear to be like Buddhism in the ways they worship. But since I hadn't seen Splinter or the Turtles possess a shrine, I'd say they are followers of Confucius. This teaches a moral philosophy and code of behavior based on peace, order, humanity, courage, wisdom, and fidelity. Confucius refused to consider the question if there is a God, but his believers state now of a heavenly harmony which one can attain by nurturing virtues of Knowledge, Patience, Sincerity, Obedience, and the Fulfillment of Obligations between children and parents, subjects and ruler. Then later during City at War, Leo was leaning toward Buddism and Zen concepts. And Don... he was contemplating God. Nothing was said, but you're left wondering if he was for or against. Fanfics, on the other hand... Boy, I have fun there...

10-18-2002, 10:12 AM	#9
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this. Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion. My husband grew up in a Buddhist family, but yet they also believed in the way of Confucious too. At least this is how it is for Korean and Chinese buddhists. I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there. No reason to get yourself worked up in a knot about it. shrug Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy.... Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons.

10-19-2002, 11:23 AM	#11
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Has anyone told you, you'd make a good lawyer?

10-19-2002, 11:30 AM	#12
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hee! you're the first. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-19-2002, 11:42 AM	#13
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	I think you sound like a text book. ducks baps

10-19-2002, 11:43 AM	#14
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmmm i'll take that as a compliment and assume you're saying im smart.... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-19-2002, 06:42 PM	#15
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Well.. ya sure like to argue a point into the ground, with supporting evidence. In all honesty, I actually do agree with the bit that Mike has spiritual potentual. While I like to stay true to TMNT form in my fanfics, I also like to take their personality and expand on it a little more. Since I'm a Christian, and more familar with it's background than Buddhism... I had reasoned with myself how I could make Mike a someone interested in Chrisitanity. It seemed like an odd thing to other people, that Mike of all of them would go in that direction. But they are only considering his superfical side. But Mike's not 100% sure about it yet in my fanfic. He's just looking into the Bible, to get ideas on the war of the angels for a story he was writing there. Then it would confuse him. Many of these religious are designed for Human kind, or bent on conquest. No say about animals (like in Zulli's excellent triology). Do they even have the soul, or the chance to also be saved or enlightened by a higher power? And what is truth, myth, or acceptable? I planned to have Mike then look into Christian history, to understand better the turmoild of evil against good. About the Crusade and martyring. About how Japan was strongly against the missionaries. And then Mike's apprehension of admitting to Splinter he was interested in Christianity.. but feared that Splinter would later betray him. Then I have my FourHorse man supernatural theory that the whole story is based off of. Damn.. I'll admit I get headaches trying to reason out that theory so it all ties in with Buddhism and martial arts law, etc.

10-20-2002, 09:06 AM	#16
GreenWillow Hench Mutant Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Mountains Posts: 425	~Methinks Heretic has done his homework. Heretic wrote: In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians don't meditate. icon_razz.gif ~I remember turning the comic sideways and reading all those titles on the bookshelf in #2 and thinking "Oh, wow....these guys know their schtuff!" And of course, recall in the new TMNT comic that Mike was ribbing Leo about having read _The _Art of_ War_ 20 times or something.... I know several fanfic authors have tried to work one or more turtles into Christanity somehow, but I just don't see how they get there. The "species-centricism" (?) of the "book" religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) pretty much rules out any hope of "salvation" for non-humans. All the "beasts" exist only to serve Mankind in that paradigm. Well, so do the women, but that's another issue ...<ducks baps> Anyway, yeah. What Heretic said. ~GW __________________ Hugs, kisses, GreenFaerieDust(tm) and a small vial of Belladonna. Life is good.

10-21-2002, 01:56 PM	#18
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	in response to HT Your fanfiction sounds like a very interesting read, but I must add that Michelangelo, as the most developed out of the four of them, would probably be the least interested in a dogmatic religion that defines itself on proper belief (such as mainline Christianity or Islam) as opposed to an experiential religion concerning a deepening of oneself (such as Buddhism or Tantra). Out of the four of them, Leonardo would be the most likely candidate for Christendom (although he would probably refuse it due to his upbringing). The animal vs humans thing would also prove a difficulty fo Mike. That is also probably why he would be more likely to embrace a Buddhism or Taoism philosophy, because "all things are buddha things". That includes turtles. In most forms of Christianity, turtles dont even have souls. If Michelangelo was to embrace a form of Christianity, it would most likely be some form of mysticism or Gnosticism. He would probably find more inspiration in the writings of John of the Cross or Meister Eckhart as opposed to the synoptics or the myths of the old testament and revelations. He might also have an affinity for the AUTHENTIC letters of Paul (such as Galatians and Romans, as opposed to Timothy and Titus), which mostly deal with spiritual experience as opposed to religous laws ("The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life"). The four horseman tie-in is interesting though..... keep going... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-21-2002, 02:06 PM	#19
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	in response to Greenwillow Wow, GW you noticed the books just like I did, neh? I am inclined to agree with your ideas about Christianity and the TMNT. The 'beasts' serve mankind in the Bible, nothing any of the turtles are inclined to agree to.... Your thoughts about Leonardo seem to be right-on, GW. Becuase Leo was primarily at the sociocentric level, he received the most character growth with the City at War theme of throwing off restrictions. Michelangelo grew probably the least in that he was probably already at a postconventional level to begin with, so a 'throwing off rules' theme would have the least to offer him. Unfortunately, Mike is often depicted as a background character and this level of his growth is rarely addressed (something Laird should work on, methinks.....) Alas, poor Raphael never really entered the sociocentric level to begin with so he received little in the way of growth. I really dont want to piss anybody off by saying this, but Raphael would receive the most growth if he would just be a little bit more like Leo: disciplined, conformist, and sociocentric. Only after embracing sociocentrism and conventionalism can one hope to transcend it (like Mike and, to a lesser degree, Don have). I loved the City at War.... deep....... __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

10-21-2002, 03:29 PM	#20
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Re: in response to HT Ack... just make it harder for me to get this story finsihed, will ya? Actually, I had Don thinking in the way as you described as for Mike. But that's me... since I had seen more Mirage referances of Don possibly contemplating that mre than the others. (Twilight of the Ring and Mirage Vol 2) The reasoning I had for Mike being the way I imagined him, was from a near death experience from a previous story. So in a sense, he's out of Logical Mirage Context by the time this present fic I'm speaking of comes along. As far a Leo goes, yeah, I agree. I have read a fic by an adult fan, Aignatious, that shown her unique view of Leo in the future. He had a son that was into Christianity (Seth) visit him... and then his deeper insanities come out. Very intriqueing. I also have many answers for the forementioned questions I posed above. Romans 10:10-14... this implies that it doesn't matter if you are human, as long as you have a soul that confesses your acceptiance and obedience to Christ. Other answers I'm not admitting here... cause then that'll just ruin the plot! As for the four horseman theory.. yes. I am stuck in finding a believable theory for this. I wasn't comparing them to the beasts though. But to the four archangelic riders that represent famine, pestilence, war, and the false messiah (antichrist). I named the four Turtles with one of these... and then I speculated that they are like a spirit in a spirit. When they die a supernatural way, they become one of theses dreaded demons. That was my first idea... it's changing now, the more I think of it. I may just end up making this a crossover with the Lord of the Rings concept. Just have an omnipresent evil that is taking over the world... and it craves especially the TMNT, for they possess a special something the evil wants back. Yeah.. something like that...