Leonardo?

[PWDESAI]

wow 4 leo fans WOO WOO! heh
i dunno, if you go by cartoon, then leonardo is the best fighter, besides teh clones
if you go by the comics and the cartoon it would still be leo, because in an ep with lotus, where shredder loses his temper and loses, the same would happen to raph,
now if you go by the comics alone, it could be equal, of course leo killed shredder both times, the peters favorite character is raph, and who knows maybe one ish they will fight, i think someone should ask dan berger to ask peter that... WHO WOULD WIN LEO OR RAPH!

[Deathknight]

The reason I didn't like Leonardo Lightens up is because they made Leonardo look like a total jerk which is why they wanted to zap with the personality modifing ray... That ep was an insult to Leo fans. They made Leonardo look extremely bossy and heartless.

[Reznorite420]

Donatello was my personal fave, mainly because he was the nerd of the group, just like I am

[Ninja Turtles Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Deathknight

The reason I didn't like Leonardo Lightens up is because they made Leonardo look like a total jerk which is why they wanted to zap with the personality modifing ray... That ep was an insult to Leo fans. They made Leonardo look extremely bossy and heartless.

I thought that was kind of the whole point of the episode. Leonardo being bossy and heartless, a.k.a. being a total jerk, taught the Turtles to appreciate Leonardo for what he is. The writers purposefully wrote him to be that way to get their point across.

The Turtles think he should lighten up, right? Well, what's the worst thing that could happen in that regard? Not only does he lighten up, he does so in a bad way.

I didn't think the episode was an insult to all the Leonardo fans out there. I'd say the episode drove its point home quite well.

If anything was an insult in that episode, it was the stupid villain. Why does a villain who can blow up buildings and steal stuff go ahead and blow up banks so he can afford more parts for his stereo? That villain was an insult to the viewers, not Leonardo.

"Leonardo, do yourself a favor and lighten up, will ya?" - Raphael, from "Leonardo Lightens Up"

[heretic888]

Nope Michelangelo is not the best fighter of them... The best comes close between Leo and Raph.

Really? Well, look at it this way: Michelangelo, out of all the four, has by far the greatest level of physical prowess. That's agility, dexterity, reflexes, flexibility, quickness (as opposed to speed), grace, accuracy, precision, and a couple of other things as well. In other words, overall physical skill with the body.

In a fight this manifests as the ability to connect with your hits, as well as dodge and/or block the opponent's hits. This would also account for one's ability to roll with a punch or knockdown to 'cushion' the impact of the attack. In a martial art that emphasizes full-bodied 'flowing' movement (as opposed to crude bone and muscle 'snapping' movement) such as ninjutsu or tai chi, this would also manifest as the level of damage and power that each attack has behind it.

Regardless to what you may believe about fighting, the turtles are ninja--- NOT boxers. Actual physical strength and speed are next to nothing when fighting with truly skilled fighters. Timing, distancing, rhythm, angling, flow, and the ability to use full-bodied momentum to utilize the power of the ENTIRE body in movement (as opposed to a single limb) and to utilize the speed of the ENTIRE body in a spontaneous instant (as opposed to just moving the legs alone) is what is key among higher-level martial artists.

In addition, the ability to utilize creative response and adaptability (as opposed to a primal animalistic 'hit and then think' response [Raphael] or a learned habitual response [Leonardo]) is what enables the true fighter to achieve victory.

So, tell me: who is really the better fighter???

now if you go by the comics alone, it could be equal, of course leo killed shredder both times, the peters favorite character is raph, and who knows maybe one ish they will fight, i think someone should ask dan berger to ask peter that... WHO WOULD WIN LEO OR RAPH!

Technically, the Shredder killed himself the first time and it was Donatello that knocked him off the building (not Leonardo). Besides, just because Leo killed Shredder does not mean he is the best fighter. Who is to say that Michelangelo or Donatello couldnt have done just as well? Leo just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

Peter Laird's favorite character is Donatello. Kevin Eastman's favorite is Raphael. Leonardo and Raphael did fight one issue (#19) and Raphael won, but then again Leonardo was holding back considerably (such as when he stopped short of plunging the bokken into Raph's throat) and Raph was not.

Leonardo would win in a fight with Raphael because he has higher physical prowess, more creativity, and more self-discipline. Raphael, when angered (which is relatively easy to do) fights to much like an animal; a serious weakness when battling against skilled martial artists.

[Karpo_007]

In what issue does it come out that Michaelangelo has greatest "physical prowess"? I know that he won agains raphael once but that's not enough... I have all the mirage volume 1+ spceials but because recent test week i havent really time to read... Im going at issue 7 right now. So if they in some later issue tell that mchelangelo is so superrior compared to other turtles, let me know.

PS.
Im really intrested where you get the Turtle's Physical status... So far no issues i've read has told that one turtle is really better at fighting than other.

And so far it's usually mike that get injured...

[heretic888]

Actually, Mike beat Raph in sparring twice (issue 2 and the Raphael special). If you will recall issue 2, the fight ended with Mike tossing Raphael into a bookcase with a rolling technique. In the Raphael special, Mike was dodging Raph's attacks and connecting with his own almost without effort (a fact which greatly enraged the proud Raphael). That fight also ended with Mike tossing Raphael to the side.

Much of this information (regarding the turtle's attributes) is gleaned from the TMNT rpg by Palladium which was written around the time that issue 4 came out. Eastman and Laird worked very closely with it and contributed all the artwork for it. The character profiles written therein are pretty much regarded as the 'official' profiles for the mirage tmnt. In them, Mike has a Physical Prowess of 24, Leo has a 20, Raph has an 18 (i believe), and Don has like a 16.

In the character profiles for the new, mirage-based animated series, Mike is also described as having a phenomenal level of agility (compared to the others). The other character profiles for the new cartoon seem to mach the comics characters precisely.

Mike only gets hurt more in fanfictions Raph tends to get hurt more in the comics due to his hotheadedness.

[PWDESAI]

yeah this guy is bsing the mike stuff.. so i may not be the best on my comics, all i remember is that leo killed em both times, the 2nd time was when the other turtles couldn't catch up cuz they were being beaten by the other weird thihgs.. leo i think is the best... I have to read that issue #19 where they fight, i forgot all about that one.... O yeah i know for sure that mike is not the best, ask anyone, even true mikey fans, most mikey fans like him for who he is not how he fights....

[heretic888]

i am not bsing. and shredder was NOT killed by Leo the first time. he killed himself with a bomb and Don knocked him off a building so he wouldnt kill them.

Mike and Don couldnt catch up because Leo went after Raph (who foolishly tried to fight Shredder by himself).

it doesnt matter who you THINK is the best fighter... in both the heavily mirage-based profiles on the TMNT rpg (which eastman and laird were VERY involved with) Mike has the highest physical prowess by a LOT. And in the new animated series, also heavily mirage and laird-based, Mike is also described as having the highest agility by a considerable degree.

Besides, Mike only 'gets hurt more' in fanfictions. And he kicked the crap outta Raph twice.

[Karpo_007]

For what i've read(I have a pdf of one of the rpg books), Only the art work for RPG books came from mirage. I can easily believe that Michelangelo is the most agile one, but then again he's the one that gets hurt more often than others... It's true that Michelangelo has beaten Raph, but when it has come to fight real enemies, Rapahel has always had better success. As for Leonardo HE's the most disciplined one. And He had a duel with shredder at the end of "Return to new york" but at the first time Leo didnt kill shredder. Shredder was half dead when he decided to take the turtles with him.

[Nturtle]

I found a site with that kind of information on it once, although it was not official it was intresting, I lost the link though or it has been swollowed up in the emmense blackhole of internet sites.
Raphael ussually looses when he loses his temper, I'd say Leo is the best fighter

[Kali]

Let me just say that none of the turtles are "the best fighter". They all have strengths and weaknesses. Overall, Mike's the most "well-rounded" fighter. Leo's most skilled, and Raph's most enthusiastic. Don's kinda a pacifist, but still knows what he's doing.

As for who would win between Leo and Raph. It'll all depend on circumstance.

[Karpo_007]

Thats pretty much right. And that is also what i meant by saying that "They work best as a team" Still it's interisting to compare their fighting...

[Nturtle]

can't argue with that. even if they did declare who was the best fighter etc... that would limit the action, story and everything else

[Deathknight]

I would never consider Mikey the best fighter out of all 4 tmnt. Michelangelo is always getting captured and beaten by the simplest of enemies... Splinter even says in Snakes Alive! that Leonardo was the most gifted.

[Kali]

Well, define "best fighter". Is it the most skilled? The most talented? One who puts in the most effort? The one who wins the most battles? The one who avoids them all together? What? And in which universe: cartoon, Mirage, movie, Image?

Everything considered, the turtles are a team, and a family, and thus, do their best when working together.

[RESOL]

Leo was is and always will be the best of the turtles.

[Brodie]

Leo's great, but he's about 3rd on my list, or a close to second (not quite though). Raph and Don are my favorite. I used to hate Donny, but now I just find that Mike is the one that erks me. If any of you learn anything from this thread, it's that Leo is better than Mike. Slash is the 4th favorite turtle. . .Mike is like. . .86. . .

[heretic888]

For what i've read(I have a pdf of one of the rpg books), Only the art work for RPG books came from mirage.

The profiles for the TMNT rpg were written around the time issue 4 of volume 1 came out in 1985. So, you are somehow telling me that the desriptions of the characters in the rpg are somehow radically different from the creators' ideas? That somehow, when they had only been in existence for four issues, the TMNT projected in the rpg are the antithesis of what Eastman and Laird envisioned as the strengths and weaknesses of each character?? Just disregard the fact that Eastman and Laird more or less 'authorized' the use and description of their characters and title in the rpg without any regard for authenticity??

Not quite.

And to further make my contention that Mike has the greatest Physical Prowess/agility/dexterity, in the newly created profiles for the TMNT animated series at foxbox.tv, Mike is described as a 'natural athlete' with 'incredible agility'. Laird has been working VERY closely with all the new tmnt mediums now, so i guess he once again was foiled in other people describing Mike in the complete opposite way that he wanted, despite the fact that this description is practically identical to rpg profile??? HMMMM?

I can easily believe that Michelangelo is the most agile one, but then again he's the one that gets hurt more often than others... It's true that Michelangelo has beaten Raph, but when it has come to fight real enemies, Rapahel has always had better success.

Yes, Mike is the most agile one... and as far as ninjutsu is concerned, more agility/dexterity + more creativity/intuition = better fighter/warrior. Kinda gives Mike a bit of an edge, dont yah think? Unlike most martial arts, ninjutsu is NOT based on crude strength and speed (Raphael's advantages) and is NOT based on robotic, drilled response (Leonardo's adavantage of 'discipline'). Mike also beat Raph twice, not just once (very easily the second time, i might add).

As for 'getting hurt more than the others', i hate to break this to you but fanfictions dont count. Mike only gets hurt more in fanfictions. In fact, it is Raphael and Leonardo that get hurt more in the Mirage storylines (only Eastman and Laird's stories count). Raphael moreso.

Who got his ass kicked by the foot and shredder at christmas time? Leo. Who got his ass kicked by the foot when he returned to new york? Raph. Who got his ass kicked when he fought the Shredder elite by himself in an attempt to get to Shredder? Raph. Who got captured and beaten down by Karai and the Foot? Leo. See a pattern here?

Ultimately though, who gets beat by how is up to the writers' whims. The fact remains that Mike still is the most agile, intuitive, and creative of his brothers, which in ninjutsu means he is a better warrior.

The REASON Leo and Raph get beat more than the others do and the REASON they are considered by most to be the 'best fighters' is very simply that they are the most impatient, arrogant, aggressive, and egocentric of the group. Mike is the most talented ninja among them, but he doesnt remind others of that fact or go around intimidating others with an aggressive or uptight attitude. Why? Because all that macho posturing is very un-ninja.

As for Leonardo HE's the most disciplined one.

That means little in a martial art like ninjutsu. The ability to shut up and follow robotic, drilled responses without regard for individuality may be prized in most systems of karate and kung-fu, but it is not in ninjutsu. Michelangelo has the best attitude regarding his training in that he is the only one of the four that genuinely LOVES the art for the art's sake. Leo trains because it is his 'duty' to Splinter. Raph trains because he has a thrill for adventure and physical violence. Don is an overly detached idealistic pacifist, and dislikes training. Mike actually loves the art with a pure heart and light spirit. Among ninjutsu circles, Mike's relaxed, pleasant attitude would be the most beneficial to development (probably one of the reasons that he IS the most agile). As I have said before, Mike is the most 'ninja-like' of the four.

[heretic888]

Let me just say that none of the turtles are "the best fighter". They all have strengths and weaknesses. Overall, Mike's the most "well-rounded" fighter. Leo's most skilled, and Raph's most enthusiastic. Don's kinda a pacifist, but still knows what he's doing.

As for who would win between Leo and Raph. It'll all depend on circumstance.

Not quite. In the rpg, it is described very ambigously saying that leonardo is the 'most skilled' fighter, Raphael is the 'most deadly' fighter, and Mike is the 'most talented' fighter. In actual gameplay, however, Mike possesses far superior ability to dodge and parry attacks and to connect with his own attacks than his other brothers do. And with his superior physical prowess and ninjutsu's reliance on coordinated full-bodied movement, he would realistically cause more damage with his attacks as well.

Leonardo and Raphael are better at rolling though.

I guess what you mean by Mike being the most 'well-rounded' is that he possesses qualities that enable him to damage his enemies and avoid their attacks much better than the other three do. leo is the most 'skilled' in the sense that he is the most rigid and the most concerned with 'form' (as opposed to formlessness). Raphael is the most enthusiastic in the sense that he is the most impulsive and enjoys violence more than the others (there's that egocentrism again).

And, under most circumstances, leo would beat raph.