Is Back to the sewer going to be a good show

[turtle142]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

in what way was Donatello's characterization weak? I thought it was dead on and got much closer to his personality than the first live action film.

I think it's less a problem with his characterizationn, and more a problem with his screen time, wouldn't it be wonderful if someone actually had the guts to write a movie story where Donatello took center stage? I think he's due.

[Sage Ninja]

If they ever do, Donatello vs. Baxter Stockman all the way. That would be the best Donatello centric movie.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

If they ever do, Donatello vs. Baxter Stockman all the way. That would be the best Donatello centric movie.

No way, make Donatello Trashes Slash: The Movie

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

in what way was Donatello's characterization weak? I thought it was dead on and got much closer to his personality than the first live action film.

Sorry. Mikey's characterization was weak. In my mind, Mikey should ideally have layers of conflicted emotions and a depth of pain and responsibility for his brothers which he hides under his metaphorical clown face by holding back his true potential because he feels that if he truly let himself go, it would destroy the family...but then again, my mind has gone weird from studying film and writing and watching too much Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
But what I really meant was that both Don and Mikey were poorly weaved into the plot. They didn't play important roles in the story. That's what I meant, and that's what I take issue with in the movie (although it certainly doesn't make it a bad movie, just not as good as it could have been).

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by Vincent

Sorry. Mikey's characterization was weak. In my mind, Mikey should ideally have layers of conflicted emotions and a depth of pain and responsibility for his brothers which he hides under his metaphorical clown face by holding back his true potential because he feels that if he truly let himself go, it would destroy the family...but then again, my mind has gone weird from studying film and writing and watching too much Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
But what I really meant was that both Don and Mikey were poorly weaved into the plot. They didn't play important roles in the story. That's what I meant, and that's what I take issue with in the movie (although it certainly doesn't make it a bad movie, just not as good as it could have been).

Problem is, I think all the interaction was between Splinter and Raph, Splinter and Leo, and Leo and Raph. if a TMNT 2 is ever made, I'd LOVE to see some focus on Mikey or Don.

By odd contrast, FF was almost completely Mikey's show. But his characterization was just as weak here. But it matched a lot of the other characters, over simplified.

All we need is good writers to make this a good show. Not that the FF writers were bad, but they were the wrong people for the job.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

All we need is good writers to make this a good show.

Agreed. In fact, I created a thread about it earlier.

[NameGoesHere1066]

Originally Posted by Drtooth

Problem is, I think all the interaction was between Splinter and Raph, Splinter and Leo, and Leo and Raph. if a TMNT 2 is ever made, I'd LOVE to see some focus on Mikey or Don.

By odd contrast, FF was almost completely Mikey's show. But his characterization was just as weak here. But it matched a lot of the other characters, over simplified.

All we need is good writers to make this a good show. Not that the FF writers were bad, but they were the wrong people for the job.

Mikey has always been like this though. Honestly I don't get what the point of his character is sometimes.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by NameGoesHere1066

Mikey has always been like this though. Honestly I don't get what the point of his character is sometimes.

That's what I've been trying to say all along, it's not like him being an annoying brat was anything new to FF, he annoyed the other turtles from the start.
I think it has allot to do with the writters just not knowing what to do with him besides making him the butt of jokes most of the times.
He's been the only character from the start of this revamp that I honestly just can't stand, totally obnoxious.

[Vincent]

The frustrating thing about Mikey is I know exactly what could be done with the character. There's some great emotional places the character could potentially go, and I know exactly how to do it, but the professional writers who are getting paid to tell stories on screen can't seem to think of anything other than "let's make him annoying!". The show needs better writers.

[Cure]

Originally Posted by Vincent

The frustrating thing about Mikey is I know exactly what could be done with the character. There's some great emotional places the character could potentially go, and I know exactly how to do it, but the professional writers who are getting paid to tell stories on screen can't seem to think of anything other than "let's make him annoying!". The show needs better writers.

You like to toot your own horn a lot, don't you?

[Coola Yagami]

Hey, give Vincent a chance... he can't be as bad as the 4Kids bunch.

[NameGoesHere1066]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

That's what I've been trying to say all along, it's not like him being an annoying brat was anything new to FF, he annoyed the other turtles from the start.
I think it has allot to do with the writters just not knowing what to do with him besides making him the butt of jokes most of the times.
He's been the only character from the start of this revamp that I honestly just can't stand, totally obnoxious.

Exactly. It seems like the point of his character is just to be random and unfunny, there is nothing about him that brings anything to the plot except to be running commentary and provide the cheap laugh. And I don't want to hear the defence "he's the morale of the group" because thats certaintly not how he's portrayed. He pisses people off more than he tries to boost people's spirits up. I didn't think it was possiable but he's worse now in FF than he ever was.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by NameGoesHere1066

Exactly. It seems like the point of his character is just to be random and unfunny, there is nothing about him that brings anything to the plot except to be running commentary and provide the cheap laugh. And I don't want to hear the defence "he's the morale of the group" because thats certaintly not how he's portrayed. He pisses people off more than he tries to boost people's spirits up. I didn't think it was possiable but he's worse now in FF than he ever was.

Sad to say but Mike's always been my least fave turtle besides in the mirage and image comics he's pretty ok there cause he's not clownish stereo type he's always been on tv.
Yeah allot of people say that about him in FF but I've been saying it all along, so I really don't see much of a differnce His voice actor really doesn't do anything to help matters either for me. *shruggs*

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by TheCure

You like to toot your own horn a lot, don't you?

Not really. It's not like I'm saying I should write for the show. Okay, sometimes I do say that out of sheer frustration, but it's not like I really mean it (otherwise I'd try to find out if it's possible for someone located outside of the US to write for US cartoons and then write a TMNT spec script or something instead of wasting my time on my own ideas). What I'm saying is that the writing shouldn't be so bad that the viewer is ahead of the writers (in more ways than one - I can guess most FF plot twists before they happen and before the characters even suspect it, and that's not supposed to happen with good writing). There are probably tons of writers out there who could and would do much better than most of the current gang. Just imagine if the head writer was replaced with, say, Peter David (of the brilliant short-lived Dreamwave TMNT comics), for example. It'd be not only a vast improvement but probably the best thing to ever happen to a cartoon.

[Drtooth]

Originally Posted by Vincent

The frustrating thing about Mikey is I know exactly what could be done with the character. There's some great emotional places the character could potentially go, and I know exactly how to do it, but the professional writers who are getting paid to tell stories on screen can't seem to think of anything other than "let's make him annoying!". The show needs better writers.

It goes back into what I'm saying. Mikey is pretty much the kid of the group, and always has been (though, in the OT he was more like the bucking the trend, being a random surfer Californian poser). Problem is, I see it as a smaller complexity with the character.

There was some fan letter in the back of a Rescue Rangers comic book that comes to mind. It basically said that Dale wasn't "Stupid" but had a special kind of juvenile innocence. One where he focuses extremely in a fantasy world, and has the naivety to try to apply it all in real life.

I see this in 2k3 Mikey. he is a kid. A kid that's also a fighter. Each turtle deals with it differently. Raph is moody, and has a bunch of resentment issues, Leo is accepting of it (and the most mature of the group, though he still has problems), Don is the token brain and Gadget man (though it goes a little deeper), and Mikey has a dual complexity of having the superhero comic book characters life. On one hand, he's living the dream that people his age usually dream about. On the other hand, it IS a scarey situation.

What sells the immature Mikey to me was his love for comics and the fact he's always picking on Raph. Problem is, the FF writers overemphisised those two things, and blended over everything else. And eventually he became more of a baby than a kid.

And in the Turtle titan episode, he basically was just re-doing a Darkwing Duck vs Gizmoduck episode.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Vincent

In my mind, Mikey should ideally have layers of conflicted emotions and a depth of pain and responsibility for his brothers which he hides under his metaphorical clown face by holding back his true potential because he feels that if he truly let himself go, it would destroy the family...but then again, my mind has gone weird from studying film and writing and watching too much Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

This is what I've always felt, this is the ideal potrayal of michaelangelo in my opinion. I get the sence Mikey holds back because he doesn't want to upset the family and team dynamic of Leo the serious leader, Don the technologial geniuos, and Raph the toughest fighter. Always thought that Michaelangelo should have some angst about the whole warrior code and all the darkness it entails. He is a good hearted idealist indivdual so I think he would have a problem with some of the darker aspects of being a warrior and the situations where there is no right or bad decsion but the lsser of two evils and him having to having to balance that with his natuarl iffinaity for goodness.

I see this in 2k3 Mikey. he is a kid. A kid that's also a fighter. Each turtle deals with it differently. Raph is moody, and has a bunch of resentment issues, Leo is accepting of it (and the most mature of the group, though he still has problems), Don is the token brain and Gadget man (though it goes a little deeper), and Mikey has a dual complexity of having the superhero comic book characters life. On one hand, he's living the dream that people his age usually dream about. On the other hand, it IS a scarey situation.

The writers could much deeper with Mikley's insistence in being a super hero if they tried but they never go deeper than Mikey just wanting to be one. Maybe I just read between the lines but i see Mikey creating turtle titan as his way of trying to make a place for himself that isn't over shadowed by his brothers and their stronger personalites. I think Mikey's gripe (and the reason he constantly annoys his brothers and throughs his accomplisments in their face) is because he feels that his brothers steal his thunder because they have definable niches in the group. I mean if Mikey wasn't there would the team be so crippled with out him or would it go with out missing a beat. So that is partly why he created turtle titan so that he could make a nich for himself independant from his brothers.

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by Vincent

Just imagine if the head writer was replaced with, say, Peter David (of the brilliant short-lived Dreamwave TMNT comics), for example. It'd be not only a vast improvement but probably the best thing to ever happen to a cartoon.

Yes then it would be TMNT Gangsta Land.
Dreamwaste had what 5 issues most of them are copies of the cartoon, it's hardly the best TMNT comic series, quite frankly I think it's one of the worst.
You talk about the Turtles not being themselves how about the fact that the turtles are hardly even in the series at all.

[gobo]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

Dreamwaste had what 5 issues most of them are copies of the cartoon, it's hardly the best TMNT comic series, quite frankly I think it's one of the worst.

There were seven issues. The first four were all new episode tie-ins, not "copies". The last three were entirely original, which, by the way, is staggeringly less challenging to accomplish. This was a very daring project in that there are only so many tie-ins one can write before contradicting established continuity. Granted, there wasn't a huge uproar when IDW decided to can the title. But, I just have to know what has your knickers in such a twist that you feel the need to berate the series without the facts to backup your arguments...

[VaughnMichael]

Originally Posted by gobo

There were seven issues. The first four were all new episode tie-ins, not "copies". The last three were entirely original, which, by the way, is staggeringly less challenging to accomplish. This was a very daring project in that there are only so many tie-ins one can write before contradicting established continuity. Granted, there wasn't a huge uproar when IDW decided to can the title. But, I just have to know what has your knickers in such a twist that you feel the need to berate the series without the facts to backup your arguments...

Sorry I didn't sit and look at how many issues the tmnt series I hate more than the next mutation has, even though I have all the comics to this series.
Not with me mind you, most of my collection is back in los angeles so it makes it a bit difficult for me to remember everything all the time Gobo.
I just felt with a title called Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles they should be the center of the series not trying to make it about the ghetto every issue or making it come off as TMNT meets the boondocks.
There's also really nothing to back this up the series was a flop, and then the company went under.
How can you seriously adore a series with 7 issues it only just got started if you really want to call what they did a start, all they simply did was rehash old tales and episodes of the new cartoon or did them in a slightly more boring perspective.
The only thing that really wasn't all that bad in the series was the art.
This series most def. didn't have me wanting the next issue every month, the only reason I even bought the thing and supported it was because it was TMNT.
They where finally going to get good and get past TMNT help the homies every issue with the turtle-bot issue then the damn thing gets cancled.
Now while I don't mind the turtles helping out african american characters it seems to me thats all they where trying to do with the series like I said Boondock Turtles.
I wish the cartoon had more of a diverse cast of characters to be honest, but for me this was overkill with just one.
Perhaps if it was every other issue or is the failed series lasted more than 7 issues it would have changed my opinion on the matter.
I didn't say everything in depth gobo because I don't want to turn this thread into a way off topic thing.
Happy now?
And seriously why is it any time I go against something I always have to state facts to say why me no likely something...like just about everyone else on here does to Fast Forward the old toon the new movie and everything.
I don't see you asking them to explain themselves Gobo.

But so this is on topic I think Back to the Sewer is going to be a hell of allot of fun.

[gobo]

Originally Posted by Putrescent

all they simply did was rehash old tales and episodes of the new cartoon or did them in a slightly more boring perspective.

That's the kinda accuracy I was looking for... ^_^