Metal Gear Solid 4

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by Peanut

In terms of what I thought was sh*tty, I'd have to say that

Spoiler:

having those retarded looking arm things as the only enemies throughout all of Shadow Moses was a bad decision. Imagine how it would feel to play through that section of the game while facing actual guards again? It would have been terrific. Also, nanomachines pretty much became the MGS version of fairy dust. They're used to explain everything that seemed like it couldn't possibly have a normal (as far as Metal Gear goes) answer.

Spoiler:

The nanomachines being the answer to everything was pretty much bunk. It cheapened some of the few mystical connections Metal Gear had, such as Vamp's immortality. I mean, in a series where there are real psychics and ghosts, why is it any stretch of the imagination to have a real vampire?

[Peanut]

Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't very many things to unlock or extras in this one? I guess we're going to have to wait for the Substance/Subsistence version of MGS4.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't very many things to unlock or extras in this one? I guess we're going to have to wait for the Substance/Subsistence version of MGS4.

Other than not having a PS3, this is the main reason I'm waiting to get the game myself (although the former reason is like, the biggest one). Every major MGS game has had an upgraded release (although in the US, MGS1's rerelease, Integral was hacked down into just a bonus VR Missions disc). I'm betting MGS4 will not be any different.

[Peanut]

Yeah, and then I'll own 3 copies of the game.

[Peanut]

I just thought of something...odd. Maybe someone can somehow explain this to me.

Spoiler:

At the end of MGS4, Big Boss talks about how Eva and Ocelot "rebuild" him using pieces of Solidus and Liquid. Aside from the fact that there's something like 6 years between Big Boss' death and Liquid's death, in which time Big Boss is somehow kept alive, there's another thing that irks me. Revolver Ocelot grafts Liquid's arm on to himself, which would be fine, as it explains how Liquid's body ended up with the Patriots, and thus how it's used to rebuild Big Boss. The problem actually springs up in MGS2. When the tanker sinks, and Snake is thought to be dead, a body is pulled from the harbor, a body who's DNA is said to match that of Solid Snake. I do believe that body is supposed to be Liquid's. So...how does that work?

Edit: Actually, I think I figured it out...

Spoiler:

I guess the Patriots were the ones to take Liquid's body out of the harbor? I don't know how they could possibly use it for anything after being dead for that long, but who knows.

[Ninjinister]

Spoiler:

I don't know for sure, as I haven't played MGS2 too much... I think it's only been in my Xbox once since I got it over a year ago. Anyway, maybe it's a Solid Snake clone, like in Ac!d 2? Then again, Ac!d 2 was non-canon....

There's also the possibility that they didn't use actual physical parts to reconstruct Big Boss, but instead stem cell reconstruction.

[poiuytre]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I just thought of something...odd. Maybe someone can somehow explain this to me.

Spoiler:

At the end of MGS4, Big Boss talks about how Eva and Ocelot "rebuild" him using pieces of Solidus and Liquid. Aside from the fact that there's something like 6 years between Big Boss' death and Liquid's death, in which time Big Boss is somehow kept alive, there's another thing that irks me. Revolver Ocelot grafts Liquid's arm on to himself, which would be fine, as it explains how Liquid's body ended up with the Patriots, and thus how it's used to rebuild Big Boss. The problem actually springs up in MGS2. When the tanker sinks, and Snake is thought to be dead, a body is pulled from the harbor, a body who's DNA is said to match that of Solid Snake. I do believe that body is supposed to be Liquid's. So...how does that work?

Edit: Actually, I think I figured it out...

I guess the Patriots were the ones to take Liquid's body out of the harbor? I don't know how they could possibly use it for anything after being dead for that long, but who knows.

Spoiler:

Yes, that's pretty much how it supposedly went.

What I don't get though is why Ocelot underwent the hypotherapy and got the Liquid nanomachines. Couldn't he just have faked it after removing the arm? Seeing as the only Patriots alive were Zero, Ocelot and Eva (Big Boss too, I suppose, but he is presumed dead). With Zero being a vegetable and Ocelot and Eva being Big Boss supporters, they could have ended this mess much sooner. Not to mention much more easily, if everyone properly teamed up with Snake.

And what about the list of the Patriots in MGS2? That was the whole reason why Snake and Otacon were there.

::edit::
Wow, I just realised that Sigint was the person Ocelot killed in MGS1. I wonder what happened to Paramedic.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by poiuytre

Spoiler:

Wow, I just realised that Sigint was the person Ocelot killed in MGS1. I wonder what happened to Paramedic.

Spoiler:

The Ocelot hypnosis thing is a huge point of contention among fans right now. It's really weird, but someone had a decent theory about it that I read somewhere. I need to try and find it again.

And those Patriots that were in MGS2 were actually The Philosphers, I believe. All of which were dead by the time Snake and Otacon found out about it.

Para-medic was killed by Frank Jaeger aka Grey Fox aka Cyborg Ninja. She was actually the one who experimented on him and turned him into what he was in MGS1.

[愛]

You have no idea how hard it is not to push the Show button on these spoiler tags. I should avoid this thread altogether.

[poiuytre]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Spoiler:

The Ocelot hypnosis thing is a huge point of contention among fans right now. It's really weird, but someone had a decent theory about it that I read somewhere. I need to try and find it again.

And those Patriots that were in MGS2 were actually The Philosphers, I believe. All of which were dead by the time Snake and Otacon found out about it.

Para-medic was killed by Frank Jaeger aka Grey Fox aka Cyborg Ninja. She was actually the one who experimented on him and turned him into what he was in MGS1.

Spoiler:

That doesn't entirely fit with what Otacon said with the people in the list being dead for over a hundred years tho. I guess you can fix that by pretending Otacon had the wrong info or that he was exaggerating. Maybe it's just a retcon like how the doctor that experimented on Jaeger used to be a man.

Not that it really matters. When you're trying to make a deep storyline of previous plots and characters puzzled together, you're bound to make little slip ups once or twice if you didn't plan it from the start. They did a pretty good job at tying the games together.

I'm still interested in a link to the Ocelot theory you were talking about. Putting it in any coherent context will do at the moment. I wasn't a fan of the possessed arm debacle and they managed to make the character even more ridiculous.


On another note, I'm trying to do a no-kills, no-alerts run on BB Extreme. It's torture, people. TORTURE.

[Peanut]

Spoiler:

I just read in the database that the list of Patriots was created by the real Patriots to throw people off. I don't really get it, but I guess that's the official word on it. And as far as Naomi (I think?) saying the person who messed with Jaeger was a dude, the database also says that was an assumption on her part, because the name she knew was Dr. Clark, and not the full name.

I can't find where I read that Ocelot theory, and I can't really remember it. I find the more theories I read on it, the more confused I get about the entire thing. I was only kinda confused on a few things after finishing the game, but after all this backlash about Ocelot, I don't even know anymore.

And you're also crazy to be doing that. I won't even attempt to try it, seeing as PMC soldiers will spot Snake on a battlefield while they're being shot at from every direction, then ignore said shooting and focus on Snake entirely. I don't even want to go through the hassle of it. I set off more alerts in this one because of random sh*t I didn't even understand it isn't funny. I'd always know how I was spotted in previous games, but in this one, I rarely have any idea as to what happened.

[Mecha Cow]

I just finished it. One of the greatest games ever. Absolutely amazing.

Spoiler:

I can definitely understand why some people were upset by Big Boss' return at the end, but I personally thought it was great. The character was such an important part of the series' mythos and yet he was barely featured in the Solid games (Naked Snake is a much younger and different incarnation of him). I felt he needed the closure, and he helped provide closure for Snake, too.

A couple of things I still don't quite understand, though.

Who created Solidus, and why did the Patriots instate him as US president? They said he wasn't part of the Les Enfants Terribles project (EVA said she only gave birth to twins), but they never did explain when or why he was created, did they?

And what about Raiden? Have I completely missed something, or did they completely ignore how he...became a cyborg? What the hell happened to him? Also, anyone notice how the scientist who'd worked on Raiden was Dr. Madnar, the creator of the original Metal Gear?

As for the list of Patriots at the end of MGS2, I assumed they were the names of the Philosophers, but the game never got into that.

*E* I just read on the MGS Wiki that Ocelot was actually possessed by Liquid during MGS2, but removed the arm and replaced it with a cybernetic one (as seen at the end, which really confused me) before doing the hypnotherapy thing. Dunno if you guys knew this already, I didn't anyway.

[Peanut]

A bunch of those questions are answered in the Metal Gear Database. It's free to DL on PSN right now in the NA, so I'm sure it won't be long until it makes it over there.

[Ninjinister]

Must have more spoilers from the Database >.<

Spoiler:

Maybe it's just a retcon like how the doctor that experimented on Jaeger used to be a man.

Actually, although Peanut said it was explained in the database, it was never stated Dr. Clark's gender in the Japanese version. I'm guessing that's in the North American version of the database only.

Who created Solidus, and why did the Patriots instate him as US president? They said he wasn't part of the Les Enfants Terribles project (EVA said she only gave birth to twins), but they never did explain when or why he was created, did they?

I'm not so sure about that. Solidus was the third clone of Big Boss, and there was actually eight created through Les Enfants Terribles - only the other five did not survive, apparently (remember, until the end of MGS 1, they thought only Solid and Liquid survived until the bombshell conversation that revealed that the president was a third surviving clone). So maybe the others had different surrogate mothers?

[Mecha Cow]

Spoiler:

Solidus was the third clone of Big Boss, and there was actually eight created through Les Enfants Terribles - only the other five did not survive, apparently

Yeah, at the end of MGS1 Liquid said eight embryos were created through LET and that six were intentionally aborted to create him and Snake. When Solidus showed up as the third clone in MGS2, we just assumed that there had actually only been five abortions, but I don't think they ever said this outright.

But EVA said she only gave birth to twins, and Naomi seemed to imply Solidus was created for a different reason, leading me to believe he was created at a later time and wasn't one of the eight embryos after all. What does the Database say about him?

[ToxicRevolution]

My grad party is in a week, and I think I might have to spend a chunk of the money I get from it on a PS3 and MGS4.

[Peanut]

From the Database...

Spoiler:

Solidus Snake - 43rd President of the United States, George Sears. The third Snake; a pure clone created from Big Boss's body cells, perfectly matching his DNA pattern.

That's the entirety of information they give on him in terms of origin. The rest is all story related information, going on for about 5 pages, but no mention of anything we're interested in. Even the Relationship chart, which highlights every single relationship in the series only has

Spoiler:

Solidus connected to Big Boss as a clone, and then to Raiden as an adoptive father.

[Mecha Cow]

So basically Kojima himself doesn't know either.

[Ninjinister]

Spoiler:

I was kind of miffed that Solidus only got vague mentions in MGS4, and now the database doesn't have anything interesting to back it up?

Since he got less closure than Johnny Sasaki, I'm predicting (or rather, hoping) for Konami to come out with Metal Gear Solidus XD

Does anybody have the cajones to produce the relationships chart for those of us that aren't privy to it?

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by The S

Spoiler:

I was kind of miffed that Solidus only got vague mentions in MGS4, and now the database doesn't have anything interesting to back it up?

Since he got less closure than Johnny Sasaki, I'm predicting (or rather, hoping) for Konami to come out with Metal Gear Solidus XD

Does anybody have the cajones to produce the relationships chart for those of us that aren't privy to it?

Spoiler:

Dude, Solidus got f*cking set on fire, that's all the closure a character needs. Used and abused by the Patriots his entire life, then his mutilated body is further abused, before he gets burned "alive". I think that may be a little more than " vague mentions".

As far as the database goes, I don't think you really understand how the relationship chart works. There's a different chart for every single important time-period of the series. For example, it has a chart for the Shadow Moses Incident; and then has a debriefing chart following the Shadow Moses Incident. It isn't just one big picture, and it's entirely impossible to produce anything like it without some really serious effort. I would go ahead and screen cap it for everyone, but some of the charts are way too large, and the only possible way to see the connections is to be zoomed all the way in.