Dreamwave comics

[SHREDDER-X]

Originally Posted by wind

I am happy with the extra elements like aliens or superheroes in Mirage run. As Peter expresses in most of places TMNT is really really affected by Jack Kirby era and those were really superhero times. If all those alien / superhero / paranormal stuff was taken to a really maximum level, i dunno, maybe i can have a few complaints, but i really really like the current situation of the book. I mean, you buy an issue and see a lovecraftian tale in it...I am in love with that.
That makes the universe rich. Over the top ninja action may be cool but i am mostly happy when i see a turtle sitting in the living room with a remote control in hand and a slimy creature comes from the bath tube to unleash chaos... I think TMNT would not survive to this day if they had only used street thugs, street fights, old foes , treacheries, etc ,etc

*sigh*, Once again, I LIKE the ALIEN and MONSTERS in the Mirages's TMNT , BUT, I liked the fact that everything was done in the shadows without the general public knowing. That was the realism in TMNT. The turtles were underground heroes, almost an urban legend, and they fought there battles without the general public knowing. That was the appeal, because it brought a little realism to their world. I can beleive mutant turtles living in the sewers more than I can beleive in a guy swinging from webs, or a guy with a blue suit and red cape flying throuhout the city. The turtles were unique, but having a bunch of aliens and superheroes walking around in public, then you might as well have them living in the DCU or Marvel Universe.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by DrSpengler

Well, it was more than just the first issue. The first three, I think, were adaptations of episodes of the TV show, albeit from an alternate perspective.

I honestly think that the reason they didn't catch wasn't so much due to content (though I, personally, really didn't like the series) but more because kids, the target audience of the 2003 TMNT line, just don't read comic books anymore.

Today, the comics medium is primarily geared at young adults and older. You won't find very many kids in comic shops anymore, and even worse, you may have a hard time finding comic shops period (the comic book industry is dying an albeit slow, but still painful death).

Outside of Archie Double Digests, you won't find single issue comic books in grocery stores or on news stands. In order for kids to get into the Dreamwave TMNT comic, they'd have to have had a comic shop in their area, been aware the comic existed and convinced their parent to take them there.

Then, after all that falls into place, they'd have to actually like the comic enough to want to pick it up every month. The fact that, after 7 issues, the TMNT still hadn't met the Shredder, probably didn't help maintain the attention spans of 8 year-olds. Kids aren't especially interested in the traumatic childhood of Baxter Stockman or a psycho-analysis of April O'Neil. They want to see the TMNT fight the Shredder. And the Dreamwave comic refused to deliver.

As to why young adults and adults didn't get into the book and keep it afloat (like they do IDW's Transformers titles), it's probably because, since it was modeled after a kid's show, they likely figured it was a "kid's book" and paid it no mind. my comic shop put new issues up in the "children's corner" alongside Looney Tunes and Sabrina the Teenage Witch (the children's corner also happens to be the most unpopular portion of the store, as there are very few kids who frequent the business).


Comic shops are dying. These days, kids get their comics in graphic novel packages from Borders or other bookstores. And even then, American comics aren't as popular with kids as Japanese comics. Go into any borders and look at the amount of shelf space dedicated to American comics and then look at the amount dedicated to manga. Kids care more about the continuing adventures of Luffy and Naruto than they do Superman and Batman.

The Dreamwave TMNT book didn't have the appeal for children but seemed too kiddy for adults. It's demise was no surprise.

And at any rate, even if it had continued, Dreamwave's bankruptcy would have canceled it, anyway.

Normally I'd say this sounds too much like Chicken Little, but unfortunately it does seem like comics are on the decline. Which is kind of sad IMO. What happened? I mean, when I was a kid video games were popular, but we still had time for comics and other story telling mediums. I'd like to think that comics would eventually have a resurgence of popularity, but who knows.

It also kind of baffles me how anime is so hugely popular while American comics aren't so popular anymore. I can understand anime's appeal, but I don't see how it's all that different a medium from American comics that it is so much more popular. Is it because they hook the kids while they are young with Pokemon?

[PAAATE]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

It also kind of baffles me how anime is so hugely popular while American comics aren't so popular anymore. I can understand anime's appeal, but I don't see how it's all that different a medium from American comics that it is so much more popular. Is it because they hook the kids while they are young with Pokemon?

There are quite a few people who like anime and manga only because it is anime and manga

And personally I think those people need a life

I like Naruto because it's good storytelling, and I like Dragon Ball for nostalgic reasons, but that's it for me.. At the moment, anyway

[junkboy]

My thought is that when an anime or manga is good.. I mean really good such as Cowboy Bebop , GTO , etc, i can understand why they are popular and prefered. I cannot consider myself an otaku, but i believe i have enough amount of anime knowledge. Tho one does not need to be an otaku to see that in this age and time japanese comics are much more appealing to the kids than western comics. I am 27 now, do not consider myself young at the moment, over the years my love for anime and manga slowly died... I still watch or read the good ones. But really rare. My love for japanese culture still goes on. I like reading such comics that showing that culture to us, mainly Usagi
Yojimbo. But the thing is , i think i do not like the humor or jokes used in animes. They do not seem so cute to me anymore as they used to be in the past ( tho i really do not know the reason )
I do not think the comic industry is dying yet, but it is slowing down. In future i believe issues will start to come really rare. Probably they will be published as a webcomic or such. And if you wanna collect them you will buy the trade packs, which definetly will be a system i will totally hate.Tpb is really strange stuff. It both keeps the comic industry on feet and from another point of view it kills the comic concept we comic fans have known since childhood.

Comics are not made for kids only, but kids are ( or used to be ) a huge percentage of readers or ( potential readers ). This is changing ofc. One of the main reasons or effects is video games. ( the degree or level of effect is open to discussion ofc ). but i see lots of kids or young adults buying only the comic of a video game franchise when it is published. ( Street Fighter, Bionic Commando, MGS, etc )

Those all said , ofc comic industry must look into itself too. They must admit that there are too much crappy stuff out there. And most of them published by the big 2 publishers. ( don't care how popular or well selling they are or not ) also, there are really lots of smaller , less known publishers , putting out some great stuff.

I truly believe i will go on to read comics on paper form till i die, but i hope the coming generation does not read it on a tv or monitor on mediums such as Playstation network, etc etc. ( with no lettering or no balloons, the dialogues heard at background ... gah )
But if this is what the next-gen kids want, they deserve it

[Ninjinister]

I'm pretty much the same way, wind. I used to be a huge anime and manga fan back in high school, but most of that was because I was mentally fed by the anime club there. They acted like being "otaku" was a good thing, and basically turned me into a stereotype. Thank the gods that as the years have progressed, my obsession has waned. I still enjoy learning about Japanese mythology and history, but it is much the same as with Chinese or Greek myths and history, for example. I have always had an interest in martial arts - that has never changed. And I still occasionally read manga and watch anime, but it's not on a compulsive level anymore.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by SHREDDER-X

*sigh*, Once again, I LIKE the ALIEN and MONSTERS in the Mirages's TMNT , BUT, I liked the fact that everything was done in the shadows without the general public knowing. That was the realism in TMNT. The turtles were underground heroes, almost an urban legend, and they fought there battles without the general public knowing. That was the appeal, because it brought a little realism to their world. I can beleive mutant turtles living in the sewers more than I can beleive in a guy swinging from webs, or a guy with a blue suit and red cape flying throuhout the city. The turtles were unique, but having a bunch of aliens and superheroes walking around in public, then you might as well have them living in the DCU or Marvel Universe.

I also like how the TMNT have to hide, since humans fear the different. In the 1987 cartoon, the first three seasons often had this theme (like "Turtle Tracks" when the old lady holds a rifle towards the TMNT, and of course "Splinter No More"). After the "Big" trilogy the TMNT became more like heroes, accepted by society and in the future, in "Once upon a Tme Machine", they didn't live in the sewers but in houses.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by J 1982

I also like how the TMNT have to hide, since humans fear the different. In the 1987 cartoon, the first three seasons often had this theme (like "Turtle Tracks" when the old lady holds a rifle towards the TMNT, and of course "Splinter No More"). After the "Big" trilogy the TMNT became more like heroes, accepted by society and in the future, in "Once upon a Tme Machine", they didn't live in the sewers but in houses.

I love the hiding aspect too, but it's been done. The idea of the Turtles suddenly being able to enter society has the potential for great stories. Volume 4 hasn't quite tapped into that potential yet, but the avenue is open. After all this time, it's something you almost want for the characters themselves.

The idea of the Turtles entering society has almost become a staple of the franchise by now. Old toon, new toon, Mirage, and Archie all show similar futures.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I love the hiding aspect too, but it's been done. The idea of the Turtles suddenly being able to enter society has the potential for great stories. Volume 4 hasn't quite tapped into that potential yet, but the avenue is open. After all this time, it's something you almost want for the characters themselves.

The idea of the Turtles entering society has almost become a staple of the franchise by now. Old toon, new toon, Mirage, and Archie all show similar futures.

There have been a number of issues of Tales that go into the Volume 4 era stuff, and even take the Turtles off planet. These sorts of stories have happened just as much, if not more than the "hide in the shadows" aspects. To be honest, while I find both interesting, I lean more in the direction of the early days.

So really, both aspects have been done so to speak. Nowadays it just depends on who feels like writing what I suppose...

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by PAAATE

There are quite a few people who like anime and manga only because it is anime and manga

And personally I think those people need a life

That's the part I don't get. To me that's like liking a TV show or a movie simply because it's a TV show or movie.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by PAAATE

There are quite a few people who like anime and manga only because it is anime and manga

And personally I think those people need a life

I like Naruto because it's good storytelling, and I like Dragon Ball for nostalgic reasons, but that's it for me.. At the moment, anyway

Agrre, but anime and manga is "in" today, even outside Japan. But it's probably like those who say they listen too classical music since it's recognized "good music" in general (but when noone can see them, they listen to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dansband music)

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

There have been a number of issues of Tales that go into the Volume 4 era stuff, and even take the Turtles off planet. These sorts of stories have happened just as much, if not more than the "hide in the shadows" aspects. To be honest, while I find both interesting, I lean more in the direction of the early days.

I have to admit I haven't read much of Tales Volume 2. Still, what I'd like to see isn't just the Turtles interacting with aliens, or the Turtles' wacky space adventures, it's Turtles interacting with human society for the first time, and all the quandries that would entail.

Volume 4 has barely touched on that. If you can point me in the direction of any Tales issues that go in that direction, I'd love to get my hands on them.

That's the part I don't get. To me that's like liking a TV show or a movie simply because it's a TV show or movie.

That's pretty much where I stand on this. I like a handful of anime and manga, but it's because they're well done, not because they're Japanese. I don't care where something was made, I care if it's good.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Cipher

I love the hiding aspect too, but it's been done. The idea of the Turtles suddenly being able to enter society has the potential for great stories. Volume 4 hasn't quite tapped into that potential yet, but the avenue is open. After all this time, it's something you almost want for the characters themselves.

The idea of the Turtles entering society has almost become a staple of the franchise by now. Old toon, new toon, Mirage, and Archie all show similar futures.

I like how the TMNT how to hide in the present, and enter society in the future.

[junkboy]

Originally Posted by J 1982

I like how the TMNT how to hide in the present, and enter society in the future.

Seconded... Tho i believe it must be a really post-apocalyptic, dystopia type world. I mean the future...

Tho when i think about it maybe there will not be much of a "society" to enter in such an age.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by wind

Seconded... Tho i believe it must be a really post-apocalyptic, dystopia type world. I mean the future...

Tho when i think about it maybe there will not be much of a "society" to enter in such an age.

Like in the Archie comics.

[junkboy]

Originally Posted by J 1982

Like in the Archie comics.

Yeah... tho i prefer the future Mirage universe that is shown at some issues of current Tales of TMNT comic. It looks more depressing - which i love.

If you ask me i would make it darker tho... kinda lika a Bladerunner or such feeling movie.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by SHREDDER-X

I liked DreamWave's TMNT. In My opinion, it's WAYYYYY BETTER than Mirage's current volume of TMNT. ( I'm sorry, but there's no way in Hell that Jim Lawson can compete with the combined might of Peter David's writing and Lesean Thomas' artwork........let the hating begin.) I think the mistake was adapting the firts couple of issues directly from the tv series, instead of just going into new ones. The artwork was FANTASTIC !!! It was like reading animation, instead of just a regular comic, and I loved the fact the turtles interacted with different minorities in an Urban setting. I mean, c'mon the turtle live in New York, which is a melting pot, so it's good for them to hang out with people of different cultures. I was hoping the series would be big, and be like the Archie Adventures for the 21st century ( I've always thought Archie's TMNT told better stories than Mirage's, and to tell you the truth, I grit my teeth every time I buy the current Mirage TMNT with all of the aliens, werewolves, and super heroes, but hey I'm a diehard turtles fan,so I have to support the franchise). Say what you want about Dreamwave, but you can't beat their versions of the Transformers and TMNT, ( well in my opinion anyway).

They're not directly from the 2003 cartoon, since they tell the stories from the bad guys view.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by J 1982

I like how the TMNT how to hide in the present, and enter society in the future.

In the old toon the existence of the turtles was public knowledge since the first season. There were constant news reports about them and they were even guests on a popular talk show. They were accepted as heroes by a fair section of the public even before the "The Big Blowout". On the flipside a few post season 3 episodes still showed public resistence to them and them being treated as outlaws.

The Archie comics were a little different. Even though they adapted the firstseven episodes of the old toon everyone in New York seemed to forget about the turtle's existence but eventually knowledge of their existence was revealed after Mikey's capture by the government and they soon became accepted and even liked by society after the appearance on Inside Affairs.

Volume 4 doesn't necesarily negate them having to hide. They still live in the sewers and prejudice against non humans has been seen and referenced a few times in the current books.

Also when Laird ends volume 4 if he keeps the status quo then any writer could pick up a TMNT book were he left off and still have them hide and jump on rooftops and get involved in Ninja action.

As for the aliens, they don't have to be shown. Kind of like how in Marvel you have a district full of mutants that never gets shown or referenced outside the X books and mutant and superhuman prejudice is mostly only ever paid lip service outside the X books. And if a writer did want to use the Utroms and other aliens in a story or two they're right at the other end of the city on Moon Island.

While we have definitely lost something with Volume 4 there's something to be said the potential situation after it ends. You could potentialy have the best of both worlds. The old toon certainly showed that you can have your cake and eat it too in regards to whether the public are aware of the existence of mutants, aliens and other beings or not.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

In the 2003 cartoon, the TMNT travel around New York City in the "Battle Shell", a giant tank, without being noticed.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by J 1982

In the 2003 cartoon, the TMNT travel around New York City in the "Battle Shell", a giant tank, without being noticed.

Well there are such things as armored cars. I guess I can suspend my disbelief enough that no other motorists pay attention to whoever is driving. With the exception of certain two cops in the first episode.

The old toon was perhaps worse at this as the turtles would put their logo and shell designs on most of their vehicles and no one seemed to realise that was the turtles. Of course that's the part of the charm of the old toon.

The point I was trying to make was in most continuities the existence of beings like the turtles does become public knowledge and they gain some form of acceptance always in the present, never in the future. The only exceptions are 2k3 (although Donatello's image was broadcast on tv and an artist rendition of the turtles was put on the news) and the movies. At least in volume 4 they retain their anonymity.

[Coola Yagami]

I still think the DW comic should have shown some Shredder/Foot/Baxter/Triceraton action... Done to death... maybe, but hey, it's the Turtles. I can't imagine some brand new Batman or X Men comic comin out starting from scratch WITHOUT the Joker and Magneto in it. Sure, we can take the comic to a whole new direction, but first let's see some Foot-fighting action.

I wonder though, had the comic continued to this day, would they have adopted the Fast Forward storyline too? And Back to the Sewers? As well as the art style? I wonder how they would have handled Bishop back in the day when suddenly FF appears and announces he'll be a good guy eventually. Man, just so many questions. I gotta make another thread abou this...