Is Splinter *really* skilled?

[Andrew NDB]

I was thinking about this the other day. Splinter's "experience" basically consisted of -- while he was a normal, unmutated rat -- watching Hamato Yoshi train and do katas from his cage, and kind of mimicking his martial arts moves, right? Then, maybe, maybe, in New York he read through some martial arts guides or something in the sewer while everyone matured post-mutation... right?

What I'm getting at is, as soon as the TMNT started getting out there and putting what Splinter taught them into actual practice (against the Foot) and started building up real, tangible hand-to-hand combat experience (not just training/play-fighting in the sewer)... something Splinter never got... I would bet they could kick Splinter's ass.

[Kendamu]

Splinter was always a bit of a prodigy, but with his apparent "age" by the time the comics began, the Turtles should've already been able to take down Splinter in one-on-one combat. I mean, consider what the Turtles did against several mousers compared to what happened to Splinter while only taking on a few in the early issues.

[Andrew NDB]

Quite true about the mousers.

Originally Posted by Goongasnootch

Splinter was always a bit of a prodigy, but with his apparent "age" by the time the comics began, the Turtles should've already been able to take down Splinter in one-on-one combat.

My point is that Splinter has no actual fighting experience... the Turtles, after they graduated their first few Foot Clan battles-to-the-death, do.

[Doc_ock_4mugen]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Quite true about the mousers.



My point is that Splinter has no actual fighting experience... the Turtles, after they graduated their first few Foot Clan battles-to-the-death, do.

And that's why the rat is always sending them on suicide missions... "AVENGE YOSHI!!!"
He might not have real battle experience, but stupid he ain't...

This topic is actually very thought-provocative. It really does make you think.
Ofcourse, I'm assuming we're talking about the Mirage universe. So yeah, it is safe to say that Splinter has no real hands-on experience the way the TMNT do.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Ryona

Ofcourse, I'm assuming we're talking about the Mirage universe.

Of course.

[Scandia]

If so, why does Splinter always manage to whip the Turtles' shells during training?

I do think he read a lot of Yoshi's martial arts books after his mutation- and probably acquired a few more as well.

[Roseangelo]

If you look at martial arts as a sport (not a stretch, since it is) and instead of using the term sensei or Master, but rather apply the word "coach," I think it's easier to see how Splinter's experience, or even lack-there-of, isn't necessarily relevant to his ability to fulfill his role in their lives.

Look at any world class athlete and that athlete has a coach. But it's not the coach who is out winning titles and Olympic medals. Many coaches have their own distinguished athletic career in the sport they coach, but not necessarily. There are many male coaches of female gymnasts, and I think it's safe to say that none of them have any experience in balance beam.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Scandia

If so, why does Splinter always manage to whip the Turtles' shells during training?

He doesn't. Not from anything we see in the comics, anyway.

I think its safe to assume that the Turtles are indeed more skilled than Splinter. Hence why he sends them to kill Saki instead of going himself. But, as Rose pointed out, it doesn't mean his knowledge and guidance isn't essential to them.

[sdp]

Its a reason I'm not a big fan of the mutated rat who knows martial arts, its a bit stupid. The OT origin makes a lot more sense.

[TheUltimateShredhead]

Damn right!

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

If you look at martial arts as a sport (not a stretch, since it is) and instead of using the term sensei or Master, but rather apply the word "coach," I think it's easier to see how Splinter's experience, or even lack-there-of, isn't necessarily relevant to his ability to fulfill his role in their lives.

Completely true. I just bring this up in regard to the perception that Splinter is so much better than the Turtles, or that he could perform better in a fight than them (even were he younger).

[Ninjinister]

Splinter is seen to be quite versed in perusing the astral plane. He very well could have somehow used that knowledge in physical arts as well....

[Coola Yagami]

Interesting point you brought up. Splinter's only real battle in the comics were defending himself against the Mousers, um... did he fight during the whole 'Silent Partners' arc when the Foot invaded April's place, and I think Casey and him fought the shark-wormclone shredder in Tales? I dunno. Seems Splinter never was out in the battlefield much in the Mirage comics.

The new toon kinda changed that making Splinter already a previous Battle Nexus champion.

[Leo656]

I'm pretty sure that's why the old cartoon gave Splinter the origin they did. It makes much more sense for Splinter to be a ninja master as a human-turned-rat simply b/c they established that Yoshi/Splinter was one of the most skilled Foot Clan members.

I know most people are married to the Mirage origin but I do prefer the "alternate" Splinter origin better for logistical reasons.

If a company ever does an "Ultimate" TMNT book they'll probably merge both Splinter origins to get one that makes perfect sense.

[Roland]

Splinter in one episode did the curlee manuver which classed him as the true master of the foot clan. None of the turtle know this move. Splinter must have secret moves to help himself when he is alone and in trouble. Maybe he is a great cook because his favourite food is sushi. In the epic begin he said rats can borrow through anything maybe that his special skill.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Roseangelo

If you look at martial arts as a sport (not a stretch, since it is) and instead of using the term sensei or Master, but rather apply the word "coach," I think it's easier to see how Splinter's experience, or even lack-there-of, isn't necessarily relevant to his ability to fulfill his role in their lives.

Look at any world class athlete and that athlete has a coach. But it's not the coach who is out winning titles and Olympic medals. Many coaches have their own distinguished athletic career in the sport they coach, but not necessarily. There are many male coaches of female gymnasts, and I think it's safe to say that none of them have any experience in balance beam.

So you're saying "Those who can do, those who can't coach"?
Or I guess as Splinter himself said in Secret of the Ooze: "You have youth, I have experience, but only those who now fight have both."

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I was thinking about this the other day. Splinter's "experience" basically consisted of -- while he was a normal, unmutated rat -- watching Hamato Yoshi train and do katas from his cage, and kind of mimicking his martial arts moves, right? Then, maybe, maybe, in New York he read through some martial arts guides or something in the sewer while everyone matured post-mutation... right?

What I'm getting at is, as soon as the TMNT started getting out there and putting what Splinter taught them into actual practice (against the Foot) and started building up real, tangible hand-to-hand combat experience (not just training/play-fighting in the sewer)... something Splinter never got... I would bet they could kick Splinter's ass.

in TSKSR there is a main master/head over the two schools/styles, as my sensei have told me he have never practiced any sword fight as any of the other masters that teach students, but he have it all in his head, knowing every move in the whole sword style.

Splinter knows most likely every move Yoshi have showed him, and according to issue one the time from nagi's murder to saki grows up and avenge nagi, splinter would have some time memorizing and train the kata's.

thinking about it Splinter was very intelligent even for a Rat, and he was a very old rat before he mutated

but his experience is limited when it comes to a real fight, and he's old (wicked old for a Rat mutated or not) so he won't have much stamina, thought he's fast, he can't keep up for a long time.

I think he knows his limitations and probably tried other martial arts where you use your opponents strength against them.

I think he's skilled but lacks combat experience

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Jester

So you're saying "Those who can do, those who can't coach"?
Or I guess as Splinter himself said in Secret of the Ooze: "You have youth, I have experience, but only those who now fight have both."

The actual old joke is, "Those who can't do, teach." (Attributed to playwright George Bernard Shaw, but the joke is probably older than that.)

And there have been modern additions, such as, "Those who can't teach, teach gym."

On topic, I agree with Kiwamu. Splinter in his old age might be past his ninja fighting prime even as he was teaching the Turtles, but to survive in the sewers for fifteen years as one's body changes is hardly something to expect of a weakling.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm pretty sure that's why the old cartoon gave Splinter the origin they did.

Actually, if I recall correctly, it was stated (I'm not sure by who, but I remember it was someone involved with the OT... or it might have even been Eastman or Laird) that Splinter's origin was changed to reflect that the mutagen in this universe acts very differently from that of the comics. Rather than just a simple "evolution", it instead changes a creature to resemble a mixture of itself and whatever other species it recently came into contact with. I'm not sure how that works (and to be completely honest, it seems a little more far-fetched, scientifically speaking, than the Mirage mutagen), but that is actually the reason for Splinter's alternate origin. Additionally, all the mutants from the OT (and from Archie) seem to be human beings, with the Turtles being the only mutants that were not originally humans.

I can see why people would prefer the alternate origin, as far as the logistics of his skills are concerned. But I honestly think it takes a bigger suspension of disbelief to accept the scientific properties of the OT mutagen. What would happen in the OT if someone got mutagen on them but was not in the contact of any other species recently? Or even if they were only in contact with their own species?

Sorry, that's probably a bit off-topic. To bring it back around, though, I will state that I think Mirage Splinter is skilled the same way that a pilot may be skilled if he aced all the flight simulations he's taken, but hasn't actually flown a real plane yet. Take that as you will.