Similarities between Lotus Blossom and Karai

[CyberCubed]

So I just watched Lotus' ep in Season 3 again, and the similarities between her and Karai are almost uncanny.

She's a ninja master from Japan and we see a flashback to her as a little girl. Krang enlists in her help to replace Shredder since he failed too many times.

Lotus and Leonardo have a battle with one another and start to have affection for one another. Lotus asks Leo to join him as a mercenary, whereas Leo wants her to join him on the forces of good. By the end of the episode Krang thinks Lotus is a traitor and she joins forces with the Turtles. At the end of the ep Lotus visits the Turtles lair and says, "One day, Leonardo, we may be on the same side."

I know Lotus gets a second ep later on, but I find it funny how similar she is to Karai. They both have a thing for Leonardo, they both work with Shredder or the Foot for awhile, and they both seem confused about honor and what to do is right.

Lotus pre-dates Karai's existence in the comics, right? I wonder if Pete was somehow inspired by Lotus to create Karai, given he used to watch the original seasons of the toon until he got bored of it. I actually kind of wish they just named Lotus, "Karai" in the first place, she's pretty much the old toon version of her perfectly.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Lotus pre-dates Karai's existence in the comics, right? I wonder if Pete was somehow inspired by Lotus to create Karai, given he used to watch the original seasons of the toon until he got bored of it. I actually kind of wish they just named Lotus, "Karai" in the first place, she's pretty much the old toon version of her perfectly.

This might be plausible were it not for the fact that Lotus has jack-sh*t in common with Karai in the comics, other than the fact that they're both female ninjas.

Mirage Karai is the leader of the Foot, and all we really see of her is her professional side. She had a daughter who was killed by Shredder's Elite. She captures Leonardo and offers to end their fued with the Foot if they'll kill the Elite, which she upholds. That's it. That's all she does until she shows up again in Volume 4. No torn loyalties, no "romantic" interest in Leonardo. Nothing.

The 2003 version of Karai does have some similiatires with Lotus Blossom, but I doubt they were intentional. Since Shredder actually leads the foot in the 2003 cartoon and is actually evil, it would be hard to maintain Karai's not-so-evil character in any other way than having her be your standard "conflicted enemy."

[TheUltimateShredhead]

Yeah! I always got that impression to Maybe just cus there both female hard ass ninjas I don't know.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cipher

This might be plausible were it not for the fact that Lotus has jack-sh*t in common with Karai in the comics, other than the fact that they're both female ninjas.

Almost all the old toon characters are fairly different than their Mirage counterparts, however that doesn't mean there couldn't be some inspiration. For at least the first few seasons of the toon Pete/Kevin were involved with it, coming up with designs for new mutants and so forth.

And everytime I watch Lotus' two eps in the old toon, I think of Karai.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Almost all the old toon characters are fairly different than their Mirage counterparts, however that doesn't mean there couldn't be some inspiration.

So your argument that Lotus inspired Karai in the comics is that "They're nothing alike, so they're probably based on each other?"

Or, wait, wait, you're saying that Laird and Eastman sat down and saw a female ninja on the TMNT cartoon one day. Then, according to your theory, they said "Hey, let's use that character in the comics. Well, it won't really be anything like her, but it'll be a female ninja." Of course, that means they could've been inspired by any female ninja ever. Or maybe they were simply inspired by the instinctive knowledge that there could be female ninjas?

At what point do you draw the line for when a character is or is not based on another? Because sharing one common trait ain't exactly convincing stuff.

Also, and I'm afraid to ask, have you actually read "City at War"?

And everytime I watch Lotus' two eps in the old toon, I think of Karai.

Yeah. The 2003 Karai. Who was created ten years after Laird probably forgot all about Lotus Blossom, and whose similarities are cliched and likely accidental.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cipher

So your argument that Lotus inspired Karai in the comics is that "They're nothing alike, so they're probably based on each other?"

I didn't say it definitely did, I just think it may have.

Then, according to your theory, they said "Hey, let's use that character in the comics. Well, it won't really be anything like her, but it'll be a female ninja." Of course, that means they could've been inspired by any female ninja ever. Or maybe they were simply inspired by the instinctive knowledge that there could be female ninjas?

I don't see why this sounds so odd to you. The cartoons/comics inspire each other all the time. Has Pete ever stated on his blog where the idea for Karai started?

At what point do you draw the line for when a character is or is not based on another? Because sharing one common trait ain't exactly convincing stuff.

By that logic, are you saying Krang's design wasn't based on an Utrom? Because we know he was, and aside from a few similarities, Krang is fairly different from a standard Utrom. Could be the same here.

Also, and I'm afraid to ask, have you actually read "City at War"?

Yes.

Yeah. The 2003 Karai. Who was created ten years after Laird probably forgot all about Lotus Blossom, and whose similarities are cliched and likely accidental.

I always got the impression Leo/Karai had a connection, even in the comics. You should re-read some of Vol. 4 when Leo helps Karai with those warriors from the other dimension who are killing Foot soldiers, the "chemistry" is there.

So are you telling me that when you watched Lotus' eps in the old toon, she did not remind you of Karai?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So are you telling me that when you watched Lotus' eps in the old toon, she did not remind you of Karai?

2003 Karai, sure, a little bit. But I still use Mirage Karai's absolute lack of similarity to Lotus Blossom as evidence that she was not a source of inspiration.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

So I just watched Lotus' ep in Season 3 again, and the similarities between her and Karai are almost uncanny.

She's a ninja master from Japan and we see a flashback to her as a little girl. Krang enlists in her help to replace Shredder since he failed too many times.

Lotus and Leonardo have a battle with one another and start to have affection for one another. Lotus asks Leo to join him as a mercenary, whereas Leo wants her to join him on the forces of good. By the end of the episode Krang thinks Lotus is a traitor and she joins forces with the Turtles. At the end of the ep Lotus visits the Turtles lair and says, "One day, Leonardo, we may be on the same side."

I know Lotus gets a second ep later on, but I find it funny how similar she is to Karai. They both have a thing for Leonardo, they both work with Shredder or the Foot for awhile, and they both seem confused about honor and what to do is right.

Lotus pre-dates Karai's existence in the comics, right? I wonder if Pete was somehow inspired by Lotus to create Karai, given he used to watch the original seasons of the toon until he got bored of it. I actually kind of wish they just named Lotus, "Karai" in the first place, she's pretty much the old toon version of her perfectly.

Lotus first appeared in season 3 (1989) of the 1987 TMNT cartoon.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Cipher

2003 Karai, sure, a little bit. But I still use Mirage Karai's absolute lack of similarity to Lotus Blossom as evidence that she was not a source of inspiration.

Well I agree, she may not have been. However I do find it funny how Lotus Blossom and 2k3 Karai share quite a bit in common.

It's almost like how you can say the Evil Turtlebot from the 2k3 series was inspired by Metalhead from the original cartoon. It's really just a new version of a evil robot Turtle.

[sdp]

When the dvd of the Lotus episode came out I mentioned it in the S3 Vol.#** thread and I mentioned how she reminded me of Karai and basically got flamed for it


Also in the first TMNT movie in a scene were the foot training kids part there is this girl who I think looks like Karai and I think she even looks at the screen. I also got flamed for suggesting she was supposed to be Karai

[cMac44111]

wikipedia says that Lotus Blossom was based on Karai. So it must be true right? /sarcasm

[gobo]

Lotus Blossom was created well before Karai (not that anyone is arguing with that... aside from from some loser on wikipedia). The first movie also predates Karai.

[CyberCubed]

Y'know, even though Lotus pre-dates Karai, why can't we pretend she is the old toon version of Karai? Lotus Blossom could just be her "codename," like how Oroku Saki calls himself Shredder.

Here are my reasons why we can pretend Lotus is Karai:

- The real Karai never shows up in the old toon

- She is a female ninja

- She is from Japan

- In the flashback in her first ep, the kid of her looks like a young Karai with the same short hairstyle

- She works for the Foot for a short time

- She and Leonardo have mutual respect/feelings toward one another

- She changes sides and helps the Turtles, although she is honor bound when Shredder tricks her


So as far as I am concerned Lotus Blossom IS Karai, even though she pre-dates Karai's existence in the comics.

Who is with me?

[Raven]

Besides the fact that both were female ninjas, theres nothing to really compare. Considering both are very different in personality.

But hey, maybe Im watching the wrong show all together?

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Y'know, even though Lotus pre-dates Karai, why can't we pretend she is the old toon version of Karai? Lotus Blossom could just be her "codename," like how Oroku Saki calls himself Shredder.

Here are my reasons why we can pretend Lotus is Karai:

- The real Karai never shows up in the old toon

- She is a female ninja

- She is from Japan

- In the flashback in her first ep, the kid of her looks like a young Karai with the same short hairstyle

- She works for the Foot for a short time

- She and Leonardo have mutual respect/feelings toward one another

- She changes sides and helps the Turtles, although she is honor bound when Shredder tricks her


So as far as I am concerned Lotus Blossom IS Karai, even though she pre-dates Karai's existence in the comics.

Who is with me?

Well, I can't say I am completely, especially to what you said here:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Y'know, even though Lotus pre-dates Karai, why can't we pretend she is the old toon version of Karai? Lotus Blossom could just be her "codename," like how Oroku Saki calls himself Shredder.

Because there's proof here that Lotus Blossom and Karai are two separate entities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sew6CnkRSw

Just listen in at 1:36.

At any rate, here's my thoughts on the matter. Personally, I do not believe that Karai, as a whole, was inspired by Lotus Blossom. In City at War, she is nothing like Lotus Blossom. However, in the 2003 cartoon, I think there's a possibility that there might have been influence from the Lotus Blossom character. I'm not stating anything definitive, but I do believe that it's possible that there was some influence there. But Karai, as a whole, I'm incredibly doubtful of, since Karai's first incarnation (that being the one introduced in City at War) really bears no similarity to Lotus Blossom at all. And those are my two cents.

[sdp]

They keyword is pretend, I also like Lotus being the OT version of Karai and that one foot girl from the movie to be the movie version of Karai.

And how is that any proof? thats just a non-canon recording for a website.

[Prowler]

Yeah, I always thought Lotus Blossom and Karai were basicly the same character.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Originally Posted by sdp

They keyword is pretend, I also like Lotus being the OT version of Karai and that one foot girl from the movie to be the movie version of Karai.

And how is that any proof? thats just a non-canon recording for a website.

Perhaps "proof" is too strong a word, but it's certainly evidence of some sort. Though, really, I still hold on to the belief that the connection would never be made if not for Karai's portrayal in the 2003 cartoon. Prior to that show, Karai really was nothing like Lotus Blossom.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Y'know, even though Lotus pre-dates Karai, why can't we pretend she is the old toon version of Karai?

Because that's a sham? And a fanfiction?

[sdp]

Found this image and reminded me of this topic


Not to mention while finding this topic I found another Lotus/Karai topic. So a lot of people definitely see the similarities.