TMNT rogues gallery expansion

[TristanHuwJones]

But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics. Chances are that once they were introduced, they'd be under more fan scrutiny than any other character. I did say that Peter was open to the idea. Cudley worked in the C.O.W.Boys crossover, but I can't think of too many more stories you can use him in without just retreading over the Archie material or making the stories straight-up bizarre. Admittedly, this is just my opinion based on the stories I've been thinking about.

[Andrew NDB]

I think Cudley could work in a Renet capacity. Sort of this thing that transcends dimensions and can meet multiple versions of the Turtles.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

The day Peter Laird ever lets Rocksteady/Bebop into Mirage continuity is the day hell freezes over.

Thank god.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics. Chances are that once they were introduced, they'd be under more fan scrutiny than any other character. I did say that Peter was open to the idea. Cudley worked in the C.O.W.Boys crossover, but I can't think of too many more stories you can use him in without just retreading over the Archie material or making the stories straight-up bizarre. Admittedly, this is just my opinion based on the stories I've been thinking about.

I'd really only want them in there if it was some Mirage meet Archie/Old toon kind of thing.

Part of Bebop/Rocksteady's charm was their stupidity, I could never see them fitting in the Mirage universe, even if they were different.

I haven't been following, is Bishop going to appear in Tales?

[turkishproverb]

I was always surprised somethign like Slash never appeared in mirage. Given the turtles parody origins, I figured a parody evil twin thing woudl be obvious.

[Dragon Turtle]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

Razorback is still something of an enigma, but I do have a big backstory that will be hinted at on the last page of #61. In my mind, it ties into why you don't see any superheroes in a world you know they exist in. But that's something for later (if things go well this year).

The Mangled Elite is more of a cameo at the moment, but when you see where he is placed and think about the situation it puts a new slant on certain characters and a big question mark over the intentions of others.

I was wondering if their was some significance to Razorback's armor, he always struck me visually as a traditional superhero comic book character.

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

But honestly, would you really want them in there? I mean, really, really want them there.

Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

I always saw Bebop and Rocksteady as possible products of a Doctor Moreau type villain or an evil corporation out to create disposable yet powerful mutant soldiers. Personality wise they could go through the same shift between old toon and Mirage as did the Shredder.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I mean, really, really want them there. You could make them work for maybe one or two stories without them becoming repetitious in their antics.

Who says they'd have to have "antics"?

As a one issue homage, or infrequetly returning characters, I think Bebop and Rocksteady could work. They're violent thugs with super human abilities. That's potentially scary sh*t. Maybe they could be some sort of mutant hitmen created by one of the Turtles' enemies. I like Dragon Turtle's experimental mutant soldier idea too. What if an agency (Razorback?) got ahold of the Turtles' DNA and used it to create them and send them out on tests? There's plenty you could do with those two.

I wouldn't want them becoming main characters or anything, but a one-off appearence by a retooled Bebop and Rocksteady could be, well, fun.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

It's been well-documented that Laird has said that Bebop, Rocksteady, and all of the Fred Wolf camp characters could be used to his whim. He just doesn't want to.

On this, I 200% support him.

Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

I always saw Bebop and Rocksteady as possible products of a Doctor Moreau type villain or an evil corporation out to create disposable yet powerful mutant soldiers. Personality wise they could go through the same shift between old toon and Mirage as did the Shredder.

Not a bad take on the characters, but it's not the Mirage Comics' duty to somehow redeem the characters. Better just to make new, better characters from the ground up.

Originally Posted by turkishproverb

I was always surprised somethign like Slash never appeared in mirage. Given the turtles parody origins, I figured a parody evil twin thing woudl be obvious.

I don't agree with the "parody" aspect to TMNT (homages and nods to Daredevil and Frank Miller's Ronin do not a parody make, even if the titular characters have an over-the-top title... their origin isn't any weirder than many existing superheroes at the time) but I will say at the same time... of all the spinoff children's characters that spawned via the cartoons and Archie comics and such... I think I'd be very OK with a revisionist take on Slash at Mirage.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Who says they'd have to have "antics"?

I just meant whatever they do within their characters and stories.

Originally Posted by Cipher

As a one issue homage, or infrequetly returning characters, I think Bebop and Rocksteady could work.

That's what I meant as well. You could only do so many stories with those characters before they became repetitious, so they'd have to be infrequent characters.

Originally Posted by Cipher

They're violent thugs with super human abilities. That's potentially scary sh*t. Maybe they could be some sort of mutant hitmen created by one of the Turtles' enemies. I like Dragon Turtle's experimental mutant soldier idea too. What if an agency (Razorback?) got ahold of the Turtles' DNA and used it to create them and send them out on tests? There's plenty you could do with those two.

My initial idea was that they were extra-dimensional criminals who accidentally crash into our dimension thanks to the Foot Clan's meddling with supernatural forces. A mystic is trying to summon some sort of para-natural being and ends up opening a hole to Bebop and Rocksteady's dimension, who, at that moment, are in a high speed pursuit with that dimension's authorities. They literally come crashing into our world. To make matters worse, they're about two to three stories tall. Anyway, all sorts of **** happens, lots of poking fun at the OT, and Don and Karai's Foot try to work together to send them back to their own dimension (first using the incantation the mystic used, then modifying Leatherhead's transmat) with Renet showing up and Splinter ultimately sending them somewhere using his own mysticism.

That was just one of the ideas I had, but I thought that one would leave things open for a potential return and was also the most fun out of the others.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I think Cudley could work in a Renet capacity. Sort of this thing that transcends dimensions and can meet multiple versions of the Turtles.

But what would you prefer, Renet, or Cudley? It'd be like seeing Renet in Archie -- cool, but they had Cudley.

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I haven't been following, is Bishop going to appear in Tales?

Mmmmaybe...

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

I was wondering if their was some significance to Razorback's armor, he always struck me visually as a traditional superhero comic book character.

When I wrote him, the main inspirations for me were Ninja and Solid Snake from the Metal Gear series, and the Interrogator from GI JOE (I think Cobra had some of the coolest looking villain designs around). You're on the money though, as I did want him to be one of those traditional comic book villains, kinda like Boba Fett in Empire, or Facade in Paul Dini's first Detective Comic. Initially they were more tech based visually, but then they became more like the Hydra-esque dudes we see now. They've undergone upgrades since though (you can check out Andres' designs on both our blogs). I think Paul is going to be drawing them in a slightly transitional fashion in #59.

Wait until you see Razorback in #61 though!

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Does Mirage own the rights to use Bebop and Rocksteady, the whole rights to various elements of the old cartoon are pretty complicated, with Fred Wolf Films selling pieces of it off left and right.

I'm pretty sure they got them back a couple of years ago in preparation for the anniversary.

Originally Posted by Dragon Turtle

Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with Bebop and Rocksteady, any character can become repetitive if their characters aren't developed from their initial appearences, a big reason why I don't particularly care for most arch villains in mainstream comics who are, for the most part, fairly one dimensional.

This is true, but I think the nature of the characters (depending on how you introduce them) limits them somewhat. The TMNT universe (Mirage) is fairly grounded in its own hyper-reality. Unless you introduced them post-volume 4, it'd be harder to really push their interactions with the Turtles and the outside world of Earth when most of the freak villains are still relatively human in nature. The Turtles are the only true freaks that are limited by their appearances and nature in general. People complained that they lost something when they could walk around freely in Volume 4, it'd be the same with Bebop and Rocksteady -- until you had a world where they could interact without everyone freaking out at the mere sight of them, you would be similarly limited in the stories you could tell with them.

I'm not saying that the number of stories are small, but they are limited.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Not a bad take on the characters, but it's not the Mirage Comics' duty to somehow redeem the characters. Better just to make new, better characters from the ground up.

I agree... with some exceptions, of course

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

But what would you prefer, Renet, or Cudley? It'd be like seeing Renet in Archie -- cool, but they had Cudley.

Honestly, probably Cudley. Renet has never really been established as someone that hops across dimensions, but rather just different points in time. Cudley demonstrated the ability to hop dimensions in the Archie books... it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that one dimension might be the Archie TMNT, and one might be the Mirage TMNT. I'm OK with that, and I think the bridger is cool (and doesn't necessitate a ton of baggage or continuity or anything... he's just a travelin' cow head). If I were to write a Mirage TMNT meets Archie TMNT story, he'd be a must.

I agree... with some exceptions, of course

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna read your Hun story with an open mind. If it seems lame or abitrary you know I'm gonna spank you, though, just the same...

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Bebop and Rocksteady could work very well in Mirage, actually. Tristan Jones offered this pitch as the story to the "Free Comic Book Day" issue of TMNT:

We open in another dimension (Caption: NOT Dimension X…), where the two massive brutes are being pursued by authorities in an intense car/other-dimensional-vehicle chase! Suddenly, a vortex starts opening in midair just ahead of them…

Cut to our world, where a Foot Mystic and a band of renegade Foot ninjas are trying to open up a portal to the Netherworld (to summon a demon to help them against the Turtles). Unfortunately, the mystic has misinterpreted one of the symbols in the spell used to open the portal correctly. A portal opens, but when the vehicle Bebop and Rocksteady had hi-jacked comes thundering out and pastes the mystic, it becomes very clear that it’s not the right one!

The rest of the Foot renegades scatter and Bebop and Rocksteady check out this strange new world they’ve stumbled into. They are massive too, at least twice the size of Leatherhead. A registered, costumed superhero flies down to try and stop the duo, but they pulverize him (in a comically brutal way, not to death, but there’s no way a normal human would be able to take it).

Cut to the Turtles’ lair, where Raph, Don and Mike are watching late night television (Leo is reading something). A sudden live news broadcast interrupts and reveals that Bebop and Rocksteady are tearing up midtown as police try and take them down.

After getting a call from April (who’s been caught in the midst of the carnage), they spring into action (they would be disguised somehow, either in gear similar to #36, or civilian clothing – long coats, etc.).

They pluck April out of the danger zone and get her to safety without being noticed, everyone seems too freaked out by the massive duo to care.
Mike notices that Karai and a band of her best warriors are on a nearby rooftop. They join her to try and find out what’s going on, and Karai reveals that a rogue mystic had recently stolen a tome from their archives containing spells/rituals that could supposedly open pathways to parallel dimensions. However, without the book they have no idea what spell/ritual was used, or how to send the two creatures back to where they came from. Don and Karai discuss their options and agree to try and come up with something together, but it means that Mike, Leo and Raph, along with the Foot warriors, will have to try and keep the dimension-hopping duo occupied.

As Mike, Leo and Raph fight Rocksteady and Bebop (taking a number of jabs at the old cartoon along the way), Karai and Don manage to put together a trans-dimensional portal using Leatherhead’s makeshift transmat device and various other bits and pieces Don has accumulated over the years. By channelling the mystic energies of a similar spell through the device, they are able to open a wormhole to another dimension (though not necessarily the one they came from).

The group lures Rocksteady and Bebop to the area above Leatherhead’s old lair (where the portal will open), but the two brutes realise they’re being herded towards a trap and start playing dirty. Don and Karai can only keep the portal open for a small amount of time, and with the brutes wise to the trap, the portal overloads the device that opened it.

At a loss for what to do, Mike suggests they call Renet, but none have any idea how to do that – considering she’s just appeared every time they’ve needed her. However, true to form, she does appear, having sensed a disturbingly large tremor in the space-time continuum. The guys fill her in, and Renet floats up towards Bebop and Rocksteady. She begins channeling her energies, chanting (similar to good ol’ Doctor Strange), but suddenly – WHAM! One of the monsters punches her into a building, sending the sceptre scattering off into an alley.

Don rushes to her aide while Raph, Leo, Mike and the Foot launch another assault on the pair. When it looks as though all is lost, Splinter suddenly arrives on the scene, standing quietly between the battle-weary warriors and the battle-ready monsters. The Turtles freak out, thinking Splinter has finally gone insane, and Bebop and Rocksteady find the situation hilarious. But Splinter has Renet’s sceptre!

Splinter mumbles something and suddenly the two are sucked into the sceptre itself!

With the city saved, Don returns with Renet. Karai tells them that she will help provide the funds to repair the damages caused in the chaos. (If you like the alternate ending, Mike could ask where Splinter sent them).

The turtles return home with their master, exhausted.

ALTERNATE ENDING (one final jab at the old cartoon):
We cut to find that Rocksteady and Bebop have been transported to a dusty, arid dimension, somewhat similar to the surface of Mars. They have been secured by hi-tech restraints and are being marched towards a gigantic construct by hulking soldiers who look similar to The Thing. They stop at the base of the construct, just in front of what appears to be large boarding ramp. “New prisoners for you my lord! We found them inside the forbidden zone.”
Bebop and Rocksteady look up, and we see a grotesquely obese Utrom, sitting in the torso cavity of a massive exosuit (think Obediah Stane’s “Iron Monger” suit compared to Tony Stark’s Iron Man suit). The Utrom grins: “Excellent!”

We zoom out for the final panel, revealing that the construct is disturbingly similar to a certain subterranean construct made famous by the old TMNT cartoons..

I think that would have made for an amazing issue... but unfortunately, it was turned down. So instead of that, we're just getting another reprint of TMNT Vol.1 #1.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Ha, and I just realized that Tristan Jones was right here in the thread. Maybe I should read every single post first before offering my own comment, rather than just skim through everything.

Well, I certainly have egg on my face.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Clown Prince of Crime

Bebop and Rocksteady could work very well in Mirage, actually. Tristan Jones offered this pitch as the story to the "Free Comic Book Day" issue of TMNT:



I think that would have made for an amazing issue... but unfortunately, it was turned down. So instead of that, we're just getting another reprint of TMNT Vol.1 #1.

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If it seems lame or abitrary you know I'm gonna spank you, though, just the same...

Can you spank me anyway?

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

Yeah, I totally see where you're coming from. The intention was that it would be a one-shot that people could either leave or take, and the two characters would simply appear for the anniversary and be banished back to another dimension. It was simply an Avengers style bit of fun that would neither affect nor detract from already established continuity. As much as I hate the word, it'd be a filler. It wouldn't progress anything, simply be a one off bit of fun -- hence it being pitched for the anniversary year.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

I think it would be really cool to see Rocksteady and Bebop in the comics. Less goofy versions, of course. Not sure what their origin would be like. I've heard that there would be some kind of rights issue that would keep them out of the Mirage comic, though.

Maybe Tokka and Rhazar, then?

Tokka and Rhazar are goofy. Let Bebop and Rocksteady rock instead.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hm... well, having read that now, actually -- literally -- having the Bebop and Rocksteady of yore cross dimensions and enter the Mirage universe/dimension for a minute/for a story, that might be entertaining. That might be fun.

It's just the idea of, actually creating a Mirage version of Bebop and Rocksteady and shoe-horning them into things... (arbitrarily, just out of some kind of nostalgia for the old cartoon by TPTB) that would make me think about burning my collection.

But isn't Hun also 'a Mirage version of Hun being shoe-horned' in there instead of making some new big guy from the ground up?

[VaughnMichael]

I say who cares if they want to bring things into the comic as long as it's for fun and isn't going to screw things up.
I'd def. rather see the Archie versions of Bebop & Rocksteady though than say the cartoon ones, or hell make them dif. all together.

[CyberCubed]

Cody Jones should appear in Mirage with the future Turtles, like with old Leo, old Raph, that we've seen in the other issues.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

But isn't Hun also 'a Mirage version of Hun being shoe-horned' in there instead of making some new big guy from the ground up?

Yeah, he is. Jury's out on this one.

This man may need to be dispatched after Tristan:

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Cody Jones should appear in Mirage with the future Turtles, like with old Leo, old Raph, that we've seen in the other issues.

You think Mirage should tie into the Fast Forward stuff? F*** no.