Watchmen, the 1985 comic series

Type 97 Chi-ha · 03-09-2009, 10:52 PM

Yes, I actually read it (in the collected book form) in the early 1990's. Anyone else did?

SPOILER ALERT:

I liked how it dealt with how the world might have been with real costumed superheroes, and how it showed that it wouldn't be like in the comic books. My favorite part was when they showed how, when the NYC police all went on strike, the superheroes tried to keep the city under control themselves...but found it beyond their capabilities.

What I didn't like was the ending, which I found disappointing and hokey. I couldn't believe they all believed Adrian so quickly and easily. Also the idea the monster would cause the great unity of the human race. For that matter, Nixon still being President, with term limits removed. Having been initially elected to the office in 1968, he would have had to have been re-elected five times to still be in office in 1985! About as likely as winning the lottery ten times, if you ask me.

~~Leo656~~ · 03-10-2009, 04:46 PM

I didn't read it 'til I got the trade in '02 or somewheres, and I still wish I'd gotten it from the beginning. Ah well.

I agree that the ending was the weakest part, the whole "alien invasion leads to world peace" angle. I thought in that case the movie revision was justified.

I always figured Nixon's job now had "special executive powers" post-Vietnam, and since there were likely political shenanigans happening anyway, it's not all that farfetched...

**Jester** · 03-10-2009, 04:49 PM

I'll just steal my post from TGWTG.com: (It's mainly about the movie...but I did "watch" the GN too.

I liked it...but then again I went in blind. The only prior Watchman exposure I had was the "motion comic" which is well over 5 hours in itself and I hadn't finished when I went to see Watchmen (I think I got to the chapter involving Rorschach's origin before going to watch it.) I finished it and must say, I'm not sure which ending I prefer. Both are rather implausible, and the "Squid" ending made me think, "Really? The book is based in a fairly realistic world (well maybe aside from Dr. Manhattan and Nixon's 5 terms.) this 'alien invasion' ending seems odd to me." Then again, if everyone knew Silk Specter was close to Jon, why not have her in custody, since in the movie she and Daniel don't go underground like they did in the GN.

I admit some of the lack of action in the GN works much better than the action in the movie. I prefer Rorschach's confrontation with the kidnapper/murder in the book as opposed to the movie, it's less physically brutal, but much more psychological. They took a few little liberties with Rorschach that seemed to work much better in the GN. Though I agree the Black Freighter being cut really doesn't effect the movie one way or another.

Like you said though Spoony (seriously watch his stuff), this is a spring board for me. Having watched both "films" I plan on picking up the actual GN and giving it a read, or at least a browse, to see how much the panels actually moved and what the book actually looks like.

Type 97 Chi-ha · 03-10-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I didn't read it 'til I got the trade in '02 or somewheres, and I still wish I'd gotten it from the beginning. Ah well.

I agree that the ending was the weakest part, the whole "alien invasion leads to world peace" angle. I thought in that case the movie revision was justified.

I always figured Nixon's job now had "special executive powers" post-Vietnam, and since there were likely political shenanigans happening anyway, it's not all that farfetched...

If you've ever seen the ancient Doctor Who episode "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" (with the original Doctor), there's the line, "You weren't expecting the great unity of the human race, were you?"

Political shenanigans or no, the idea of Nixon being voted into the Presidency five times was also hokey. Winning a war is not enough to keep a chief executive popular. Ask the first George Bush. Or Indira Gandhi, for that matter (after the victorious 1971 war with Pakistan).

*ZariusTwo* · 03-11-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I didn't read it 'til I got the trade in '02 or somewheres, and I still wish I'd gotten it from the beginning. Ah well.

I agree that the ending was the weakest part, the whole "alien invasion leads to world peace" angle. I thought in that case the movie revision was justified.

Hardly. The movie's ending is ridiculous because it doesnt "get" why the Squid is there.

*Mecha Cow* · 03-11-2009, 02:15 AM

The squid doesn't lead to 'world peace'. It just distracts everyone enough to defuse the nuclear threat, at least temporarily. "Nothing ever ends".

*raphael_is_cool* · 03-11-2009, 06:53 AM

One thing I really liked about the graphic novel was how young Rorschach (or Walter Kovacs then) supported the Hiroshima bombing and yet when confronted with the same idea in principle couldn't accept it.

*Mecha Cow* · 03-11-2009, 12:12 PM

Rorschach is hypocritical in many ways. I think it's part of what makes him so terribly damaged, and why he's by far the most interesting character in the comic.

Type 97 Chi-ha · 03-11-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecha Cow

The squid doesn't lead to 'world peace'. It just distracts everyone enough to defuse the nuclear threat, at least temporarily. "Nothing ever ends".

That was what I found the most ridiculous part of the story. The USA created (by accident) Dr. Manhattan as a superbeing; why wouldn't it have been assumed the US government might have created the squid as well? If anything, the squid would have more likely caused a world panic. "Oh, no, look at what they're creating now!" FYI, the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 nearly led to nuclear war, though the problem was solved by negotiations.

Another thing which bothered me: why weren't there any Soviet superheroes in the story? For propaganda purposes if nothing else?

*Mr._Mutant_Man* · 03-15-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raphael_is_cool

One thing I really liked about the graphic novel was how young Rorschach (or Walter Kovacs then) supported the Hiroshima bombing and yet when confronted with the same idea in principle couldn't accept it.

I never thought about that.

I guess that's why this comic is so well remembered. There's just so many little things that you pick up every time.

Type 97 Chi-ha · 03-16-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raphael_is_cool

One thing I really liked about the graphic novel was how young Rorschach (or Walter Kovacs then) supported the Hiroshima bombing and yet when confronted with the same idea in principle couldn't accept it.

It's not the same thing at all. Hiroshima was a city in a nation we were at war with, who had attacked us and were committing atrocities in other nations such as China. The idea of the Hiroshima bomb was to prove what damage we could do to them. (The Nagasaki bomb was to prove what we did wasn't a fluke and we could repeat it.) Also it was reportedly an industrial city, so it was an attack on their fighting ability as well.

*raphael_is_cool* · 03-16-2009, 06:07 PM

Yes, but the young Walter Kovacs simply acknowledged it as a lesser evil than the many deaths that would've followed had the war had continued. Hence, why I said 'in principle'.

You think Alan Moore just threw that in there randomly?

Type 97 Chi-ha · 03-16-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raphael_is_cool

Yes, but the young Walter Kovacs simply acknowledged it as a lesser evil than the many deaths that would've followed had the war had continued. Hence, why I said 'in principle'.

You think Alan Moore just threw that in there randomly?

I admit I read the series years ago and am going by memory. I actually don't remember the part about young Walter Kovacs and his attitude about the atomic bomb. I just remember his attitude having become from comparatively mild to infinitely more cynical after the incident with the child molester and the dogs.

*raphael_is_cool* · 03-17-2009, 12:39 PM

It's not really discussed. It's just from bits in his case file the psychiatrist has that you get to see at the end of one chapter, including him writing about a nightmare he had and drawing a picture. I've not checked it but you may be able to draw parallels with the Hiroshima shadow motif (also seen as the graffiti on a wall in the alley by where the squid hits, that Rorschach even mentions at one point makes him uncomfortable). I really do recommend you read it again. There are so many little things to pick up on.

Anyway, my point is that I agree with you, yeah, he has changed. The whole child murder incident being when he became Rorschach, and the young Walter being the old 'shades of grey' mindset.

03-09-2009, 10:52 PM	#1
Type 97 Chi-ha Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Brookfield, IL Posts: 1,333	Watchmen, the 1985 comic series Yes, I actually read it (in the collected book form) in the early 1990's. Anyone else did? SPOILER ALERT: I liked how it dealt with how the world might have been with real costumed superheroes, and how it showed that it wouldn't be like in the comic books. My favorite part was when they showed how, when the NYC police all went on strike, the superheroes tried to keep the city under control themselves...but found it beyond their capabilities. What I didn't like was the ending, which I found disappointing and hokey. I couldn't believe they all believed Adrian so quickly and easily. Also the idea the monster would cause the great unity of the human race. For that matter, Nixon still being President, with term limits removed. Having been initially elected to the office in 1968, he would have had to have been re-elected five times to still be in office in 1985! About as likely as winning the lottery ten times, if you ask me.

03-10-2009, 04:49 PM	#3
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,301	I'll just steal my post from TGWTG.com: (It's mainly about the movie...but I did "watch" the GN too. I liked it...but then again I went in blind. The only prior Watchman exposure I had was the "motion comic" which is well over 5 hours in itself and I hadn't finished when I went to see Watchmen (I think I got to the chapter involving Rorschach's origin before going to watch it.) I finished it and must say, I'm not sure which ending I prefer. Both are rather implausible, and the "Squid" ending made me think, "Really? The book is based in a fairly realistic world (well maybe aside from Dr. Manhattan and Nixon's 5 terms.) this 'alien invasion' ending seems odd to me." Then again, if everyone knew Silk Specter was close to Jon, why not have her in custody, since in the movie she and Daniel don't go underground like they did in the GN. I admit some of the lack of action in the GN works much better than the action in the movie. I prefer Rorschach's confrontation with the kidnapper/murder in the book as opposed to the movie, it's less physically brutal, but much more psychological. They took a few little liberties with Rorschach that seemed to work much better in the GN. Though I agree the Black Freighter being cut really doesn't effect the movie one way or another. Like you said though Spoony (seriously watch his stuff), this is a spring board for me. Having watched both "films" I plan on picking up the actual GN and giving it a read, or at least a browse, to see how much the panels actually moved and what the book actually looks like. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

03-11-2009, 02:15 AM	#6
Mecha Cow Gorgeous and modest too Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,699	The squid doesn't lead to 'world peace'. It just distracts everyone enough to defuse the nuclear threat, at least temporarily. "Nothing ever ends". __________________

03-11-2009, 12:12 PM	#8
Mecha Cow Gorgeous and modest too Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,699	Rorschach is hypocritical in many ways. I think it's part of what makes him so terribly damaged, and why he's by far the most interesting character in the comic. __________________

03-10-2009, 04:46 PM	#2
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I didn't read it 'til I got the trade in '02 or somewheres, and I still wish I'd gotten it from the beginning. Ah well. I agree that the ending was the weakest part, the whole "alien invasion leads to world peace" angle. I thought in that case the movie revision was justified. I always figured Nixon's job now had "special executive powers" post-Vietnam, and since there were likely political shenanigans happening anyway, it's not all that farfetched...

03-11-2009, 06:53 AM	#7
raphael_is_cool Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,151	One thing I really liked about the graphic novel was how young Rorschach (or Walter Kovacs then) supported the Hiroshima bombing and yet when confronted with the same idea in principle couldn't accept it.

03-16-2009, 06:07 PM	#12
raphael_is_cool Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,151	Yes, but the young Walter Kovacs simply acknowledged it as a lesser evil than the many deaths that would've followed had the war had continued. Hence, why I said 'in principle'. You think Alan Moore just threw that in there randomly?

03-17-2009, 12:39 PM	#14
raphael_is_cool Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: England Posts: 2,151	It's not really discussed. It's just from bits in his case file the psychiatrist has that you get to see at the end of one chapter, including him writing about a nightmare he had and drawing a picture. I've not checked it but you may be able to draw parallels with the Hiroshima shadow motif (also seen as the graffiti on a wall in the alley by where the squid hits, that Rorschach even mentions at one point makes him uncomfortable). I really do recommend you read it again. There are so many little things to pick up on. Anyway, my point is that I agree with you, yeah, he has changed. The whole child murder incident being when he became Rorschach, and the young Walter being the old 'shades of grey' mindset.