Deaths of the TMNT

[Cipher]

This discussion began in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own topic. Looking at all the evidence in the Mirage continuity, what do you think is the order of the Turtles' deaths.

Here's where I stand on the Turtles' lifespans: Raph, Mike, Leo, Don. The hugest pieces in the argument are the Tales collected book frontispieces and a few allusions in various Tales issues.

About Raph. We know he continues to fight after the other Turtles, taking on Foot robots in Tokyo, hunting in the swamp, etc. In the Tales fronispieces, he appears far younger than any of the other Turtles. I know some people have said "Maybe that's just the last they saw of him." But I highly doubt that Lawson sat down with such a complicated intent when the most obvious conclusion from the drawings is that Rapheal died at a younger age.

It suits the series thematically as well, to have continued violence lead to a violent end. Every single violent or vengeful character in TMNT has either calmed themselves or met some horrible end. It's a running motif.

Mike's a mystery. We don't even know if he'll return home from his current star voyage. Future Raph ends Tales #55 by saying "Good night, Mikey. Wherever you are." The issue then ends with a picture of the moon. This could imply any number of things. Perhaps Raph has severed contact with his brothers. Perhaps Mikey is on an extended space voyage or never returns (although old Mikey's appearence in Donatello's hologram implies that he does return to Earth at some point).

Of all the Turtles, we have the most information on Leo's life. His entire journey from middle-age to old-age is revealed in Tales #41, "Swan Song" and #13-14, "Loops." We know he travels the world for years after Radical's death, and attains a state of zen like peace after killing Complete Carnage. On his 100th birthday, Donatello gives him a techno-katana. He continues to meditate in a hut outside a major city, and vows never to take another life. At the end of "Loops," Leonardo solioquizes that no one can cheat death. "Not even a Turtle. Not as far as I know." Plainly visible in the background are two tombstones. It's easy to read this as implying only he and Donatello are left alive. Their peaceful lifestyles support this as well.

Donatello is all guess work. But from his sullen, lonesome demeanor in "Plastron Cafe" and the Tales collected book, it seems clear that he's the last of his kind. He has a virtual reunion with his brothers, and Renet cries just watching him. I don't know how less subtle they could be about it.

[TristanHuwJones]

Here's what I honestly think. Leonardo is the first to bite the dust. Raphael dying first is just way too obvious. I think the thing with Raph is, the more he fights, the better he is at it. Which it is in reality. You get your ass kicked, but you eventually wise up and learn where your faults are. I think Leo's decision to stop killing will be his undoing.

We know Don goes blind, but we also know that Don is somewhat against the life chosen by Raph and Leo, who clearly continue fighting to an extent after Don does. I think Don's yearning to continue going back to Northampton instead of staying in NYC (as expressed in #55) is a good example of this, and the fact that he is on his own further down the road is another. His longing for a reunion with his brothers could mean a couple of things. It could very well mean that they're all dead, but it could also mean that something terrible happened and the likelihood of them ever reuniting is virtually non-existent. It could be that either Mike or Leo was killed and that tore them all apart. It might not even have anything to do with the brothers or their deaths, but something else altogether.

We know Mikey goes missing at somepoint, and that Raph has no idea what happened to him. The implication being that he's amongst the stars, but all this could be before any of them have died. Raph seems to be on a flooded earth. The same thing could be implied by the Leatherhead issue (the Turtle toddler story bookends). I'm not sure which Turtle that is, I assume it's Don, but that could even be the same flooded Earth, but a number of years down the track and somewhere else on the flooded globe. Then again, it could be an entirely different planet.

I'm standing by Raph outliving all the others, but as I said, I don't want to say why just yet. Someone will come across it the same way I did, and it really is smack-your-head-obvious when you see it. It's like poisons or toxins, or just about anything that kills you in that respect -- the more you expose yourself to it in controlled doses, the less damage you take each time after.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I'm standing by Raph outliving all the others, but as I said, I don't want to say why just yet. Someone will come across it the same way I did, and it really is smack-your-head-obvious when you see it. It's like poisons or toxins, or just about anything that kills you in that respect -- the more you expose yourself to it in controlled doses, the less damage you take each time after.

Please tell me you're not talking about Road Hogs....

[TristanHuwJones]

**** no. Something happens to Raph in the current time line. It isn't something that's seen in the future stuff.

I have to go with Cipher's list.

Raph is easily the first one to kick the bucket because of his bad habits such as leaping before he looks. You can only be lucky for so long. I see him getting killed rather young.

Mikey I'm totally uncertain with him.

Leo definetly lives right into old age, and I'm certain that he passes away by natural death like Splinter rather than getting killed like Raph (and posibly Mikey).

Don I'm betting he uses science to help extend his life, which makes him the last mutant turtle, as suggested by that one comic story Cipher mentioned.

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I think Leo's decision to stop killing will be his undoing.

That's absolutely ridiculous. Considering the martial arts master.. no, martial arts god that Leo becomes after 100 years of worldy training and experience, is more than enough to make Leo pretty much untouchable and a force to be reckoned with by anyone on Earth, even if he chooses to subdue rather than kill.
He developes an unnatural level of ESP, and he can even levitate for crying out loud (among other abilities he may have that are not revealed to us). He's pretty much on a super-human level.

The fact that Leo chooses to never kill again may very well be not only a humanitarian decision, but also a decision made because he's simply powerful enough that he doesn't have to kill what isn't a threat to him anymore.

[Vivi]

I can see Mikey dying young, as has been mentioned before in these forums. His nature is too sweet, the loss would be the driving force behind the turtles separation. At a time much later, Leonardo will fight a final battle, but allow himself to be killed when realising his time to join his brothers has come.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Ryona

I have to go with Cipher's list.

Raph is easily the first one to kick the bucket because of his bad habits such as leaping before he looks. You can only be lucky for so long. I see him getting killed rather young.

He also learns from his mistakes. You look at EVERYTHING that's happened to Raph. EVERY time he's gone off on his own, he's turned up trumps. Every time Leo says he's being stupid, he comes out on top. It's always close, but he always comes out on top.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Leo definetly lives right into old age, and I'm certain that he passes away by natural death like Splinter rather than getting killed like Raph (and posibly Mikey).

I'd say it, but I'd blow it. I want to see who figures it out. Raph can, and likely will, outlive the others.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Don I'm betting he uses science to help prolong his life, which makes him the last mutant turtle, as suggested by that one comic story Cipher mentioned.

It's never suggested he's the last one. It's suggested that he doesn't see his brothers for an extended amount of time. You're assuming he's the last one based on what you see. There are a number of interpretations. You'd also think that if he could use science to prolong his life, he'd use science to keep his vision. Clearly he doesn't.

Originally Posted by Ryona

That's absolutely ridiculous. Considering the martial arts master.. no, martial arts god that Leo becomes after 100 years of worldy training and experience, is more than enough to make Leo pretty much untouchable and a force to be reckoned with by anyone on Earth, even if he chooses to subdue rather than kill.

It's pretty well established that the Turtles are constantly up against things that AREN'T of this Earth. Saying "that's absolutely ridiculous" is absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Ryona

He developes an unnatural level of ESP, and he can even levitate for crying out loud. He's pretty much on a super-human level.

Splinter could levitate. A heart attack got him (from the looks of things). So he's super-human... so was Superman. Along came Doomsday and the dude got his ass served.

[Ninjinister]

You seem to be quite adamant about this, Tristan. Other than this thing with Raph you keep alluding to, there's got to be something that you know that we don't....

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

He also learns from his mistakes. You look at EVERYTHING that's happened to Raph. EVERY time he's gone off on his own, he's turned up trumps. Every time Leo says he's being stupid, he comes out on top. It's always close, but he always comes out on top.

When it comes to Leo, I'm usually a little biased because he's my fave, but I always go strictly be facts as well.

That said, I do believe you're being biased with Raph. I mean honestly... Raph the last one to die? There's simply no way. Raph's way of doing things is like a constant game of Russion roullette. He's been lucky many times, but his mentality is going to get him killed one day.
Warriors like Raph are the expendable type. They're amazing at war, but life of valor are always short. They either die young, or they retire young and live long.

I'd say it, but I'd blow it. I want to see who figures it out. Raph can, and likely will, outlive the others.

That above statement just shouts BIASED RAPH FAN.

You're a fan of Raph. That's cool. But Saying he'll outlive the others is really pushing it. It's your opinion and that's fine... but... come on...

Are we talking about the right Raph? Mirage Raph? Because really, the only Raph I could see outliving any of the other turtles is the Raph from the original 80s tv series. That Raph is the only one of all the Raphs who is level-headed and cool under fire.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by The Ninjinister

You seem to be quite adamant about this, Tristan. Other than this thing with Raph you keep alluding to, there's got to be something that you know that we don't....

Nope, it's right there in Volume 4, this Raph thing. I'm just going by what's in the books, but ultimately you have to look beyond what's actually on the page. What's there on the page is just the face value stuff. If you read into it, certain things become rather obvious, especially with Raph. I was actually kicking myself when I picked up on the Raph thing, because I couldn't believe it didn't hit me earlier.

[TristanHuwJones]

Originally Posted by Ryona

When it comes to Leo, I'm usually a little biased because he's my fave, but I always go strictly be facts as well.

Fair enough, but in all honesty, I'm totally Mike biased. If I had my way, he'd be the one that outlives all of them, which he may, nobody knows...

Originally Posted by Ryona

That said, I do believe you're being biased with Raph. I mean honestly... Raph the last one to die? There's simply no way.

Raph's way of doing things is like a constant game of Russion roullette.[/QUOTE] Not really. If it weren't for Raph, they probably would've had a much harder time taking down the Foot in Return to New York. He's the one that turned Zog into a weapon for them.

Originally Posted by Ryona

but his mentality is going to get him killed one day.

But who's it say he doesn't realise that? And who is to say that that day is before all the other turtles? Most warriors realise they're expendable, but they also get better at what they're doing. It's just a matter of knowing your enemy, and the only REAL way you can do that is by taking him on. Look at the Punisher. That mother****er should be dead. Based on the **** he does EVERY day, he should be dead, but it's reached the point where he's so good at it that, yeah he might take a hiding every now and then, but he knows what he has to do to get by it. I think Raph is very similar. I think he's strong willed enough that he would keep going simply through sheer force of will.

Also, now that I think about it, Raph is very similar to Bruce Wayne in his early days as Batman. Batman learnt how to fight villains, how to be smart about it. There's nothing to suggest that Raph can't do the same.

Anyway, this is all hypothetical, and ultimately boils down to whoever writes these things. As it stands, I am adamant that if all the Turtles were to throw down their arms and go into peaceful lives, Raph would still outlive his brothers by a mile. I am also equally as adamant, that unless he gives his own life, or a villain becomes REALLY clever, he will be the last to die. And this isn't based on something I have cooking as a writer, or something I've heard from inside Mirage, this is based on something that's happened in the comics themselves that everyone's overlooked (c'mon Cipher, you should have this by now !)

Your argument is pretty frail, and this is why...

First off, they're all warriors, all doing the same thing. Training in the arts, and kicking ass on the side for experience. Your speech there makes it sound like Raph is the only one who trains and fights.

Secondly, Raph would obviously become a better warrior over time, I'll give you that. But so will ALL of the ninja turtles. So again, you're singling out Raph as the only warrior of the four.

Third, Raph's tough, but Don's smart, and hell, Leo is both tough and smart. Raph might survive past Mikey (though Mikey is actually smarter than Raph), but Raph has extremely little chance to survive past Leo and Don. Your mind is your best weapon, and Leo and Don beats Raph in that department by miles. On top of that, Leo is simply a better warrior than Raph. This is FACT and this is CANON. It's undebatable.

Fourth, if the other turtles retire while Raph continues, this simply means that the odds of the other turtles dying first are extremely slim since they don't live dangerous lives anymore, where as Raph would still continue a dangerous lifestyle and have a high chance of getting killed, thus giving Raph great odds that he'll go first.

Simply put, chances of Raph being the last one to die are about as equal as you or I winning a free trip to the moon this week.



Oh, and saying Raph will live long because he's similar to characters like The Punisher, who happens to survive all sorts of **** is simply weak. There's a reason why characters like The Punisher never die. Because they're the bloody main character! Main characters almost never die. And if they do die, they're always brought back to life with some far-fetched solution.

[Scandia]

Tristan- Are you talking about when Raph gets turned into a Gamera?

Anyhow, I still think Don is the last one to die.

However, something strikes me as Mikey dying first, then Raph, then Leo, and finally Donnie.

I could actually see a posibility of Mikey dying before Raph. Only because he can be rather careless. Odds are Raph will surely die first, but there is that little chance that Mikey might go first.
Leo and Don will obviously be the last ones to go. It's the way of nature... The smartest and wisest of any givin species are typicly the ones who survive.

[TristanHuwJones]

I want to make it VERY clear here that I'm not taking shots at you here, and there's no hard feelings or anything, this is just a difference of opinions. We're not calling each other idiots or anything here.

Excuse me for saying this and excuse the language, but that's quite a load of horseshit.
First off, they're all warriors, all doing the same thing. Training in the arts, and kicking ass on the side for experience. Your speech there makes it sound like Raph is the only one who does that.

He certainly seems to do it a lot more than the others. It's a very clear trait of his character that he actually enjoys going out, be it with Casey or his brothers, and kicking ass in the downtime between training.

Secondly, Raph would obviously become a better warrior over time, I'll give you that. But so will ALL of the ninja turtles. So again, you're singling out Raph as the only warrior of the four.

It's pretty well established in #55 of Tales that Don wants nothing to do with the NYC lifestyle anymore. That he thinks they're better off in Northampton.

Third, Raph's tough, but Don's smart, and hell, Leo is both tough and smart. Raph might survive past Mikey (though Mikey is actually smarter than Raph), but Raph has extremely little chance to survive past Leo and Don. Your mind is your best weapon, and Leo and Don beats Raph in that department by miles. On top of that, Leo is simply a better warrior than Raph. This is FACT and this is CANON. It's undebatable

.

If it came down to the Turtles fighting each other to the death, then I'd agree with you, but it doesn't matter how good you are or how smart you are, there's always a bigger fish. A lot of what happens in life ultimately comes down to chance, so just because one is better than the other doesn't mean that he'll outlive the other.

If you want to go by what's fact and what's canon:
Leo was beaten nearly to death by the Foot in his one shot. Raph is caught under similar circumstances (being hunted by the Foot) in #19, and he deals with them pretty easily. In that same issue, Raph beats Leo, hand-to-hand in the opening pages.

Yes, Raph takes on the Elite and fails, Leo cleans up what's left, but then we jump forward to City at War. Leo gets is subdued and captured by Karai and a group of regular old Foot Ninjas. I'd also argue that what Raph does when he gets caught by the chain and jumps off the edge of the broken flooring is pretty smart fighting. Especially after one pulled the same stunt with the chains earlier (Raph also beat the Elite that caught him off guard too).

There's also The Survival Game, in which Raph outsmarts all his brothers (taking Leo down first by the way).

Based on what's there in the comics, I'd say that in the early days, they're fairly even when it comes to fighting abilities.

But the fact remains; there's something that happens in volume 4 that can be backed up by the Collected Tales openers that indicates that Raph can and most likely will outlive the others. This isn't opinion, it's something that's right there on the page, and unless Peter completely eradicates this in his last few issues of Volume 4, it stands up pretty solidly.

Fourth, if the other turtles retire while Raph continues, this simply means that the odds of the other turtles dying first are extremely slim since they don't live dangerous lives anymore, where as Raph would still continue a dangerous lifestyle and have a high chance of getting killed, thus giving Raph great odds that he'll go first.

Is that likely to stop a villain with a vendetta though? If the others retire, they fall out of form. Someone or something could get to them first and they might be helpless. At least Raph, doing his thing would have that edge. He'd more than likely be fitter, and again, what happened to him is likely to see him come out on top, no matter how bad the beating he takes (unless, as I said, the villain is clever).

Simply put, chances of Raph being the last one to die are about as equal as you or I winning a free trip to the moon this week.

You can't say that. Ultimately, the decision isn't up to either of us. Reread Volume 4. It's right there. Plain as day.

Oh, and saying Raph will live long because he's similar to characters like The Punisher, who happens to survive all sorts of **** is simply weak. There's a reason why characters like The Punisher never die. Because they're the bloody main character! Main characters almost never die. And if they do die, they're always brought back to life with some far-fetched solution.

I think it's valid. Since when has Raph not been a main character? It wouldn't be hard to replace the Punisher. It won't happen, but it wouldn't be hard. Batman just got killed. He'll be back of course, but they're filling his shoes for the time being. It's just the fanbase that keeps these characters who they are. Any costumed hero can have a legacy. A ninja Turtle, not so much. Unless Raph is cloned or has kids of course...

[funatic]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

As it stands, I am adamant that if all the Turtles were to throw down their arms and go into peaceful lives, Raph would still outlive his brothers by a mile. I am also equally as adamant, that unless he gives his own life, or a villain becomes REALLY clever, he will be the last to die. And this isn't based on something I have cooking as a writer, or something I've heard from inside Mirage, this is based on something that's happened in the comics themselves that everyone's overlooked

Gee thanks Tristan, now you have me examining vol 4 with a fine-toothed comb. Making a turtles fan re-read his comics, just shameful... are you sure this isn't just a gimmick to boost interest before issue 30 comes out?

[TristanHuwJones]

I promise you it's not. It's just a ridiculous coincidence that this conversation came up the day after I realised what I did. I have absolutely no idea what happens in Vol.4. All I know is that Peter said that something like two scenes take place, and that it's pretty much Mike centric (if I remember right)...

[funatic]

Don't worry, I believe you...

I've been scaning the issues these last few minutes and am already coming up with wild theories about vampire immortality & robot host-bodies... though it might hurt my case that I don't have the Collected Tales bits to compare and contrast.

[TristanHuwJones]

To be honest, the only Future Raph stuff we've really seen was him on the rooftop in Tales #55, him up against an aged Karai in #40, and the same Jacket-Cap-Eyepatched Raph appearing MUCH younger than his brothers in a few of the openers of the new Tales Collection. He appears the same in a holographic simulation of a reunion they must share at some point. Actually, now that I think about it and look closer at that particular part of the story, I don't think Don is actually blind. The can could just be a balance thing, and a holographic simulation of something would be kind of redundant to a blind individual...

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by TristanHuwJones

I am also equally as adamant, that unless he gives his own life, or a villain becomes REALLY clever, he will be the last to die. And this isn't based on something I have cooking as a writer, or something I've heard from inside Mirage, this is based on something that's happened in the comics themselves that everyone's overlooked (c'mon Cipher, you should have this by now !)

Jesus, Tristan, a guy's gotta sleep eventually.

I've read through Volume 4 at least a twice, and I just can't think of anything that implies Raph will outlive the others, unless violent aggression and bodily mutations are theraputic. I haven't seen anything that has made me change my mind yet, and for the most part I've agreed with Ryona's posts.

For the sake of discussion (and this has become a pretty good one), why don't you share your epiphany with us?

It's pretty well established in #55 of Tales that Don wants nothing to do with the NYC lifestyle anymore. That he thinks they're better off in Northampton.

Are you thinking of the right issue? Tales #55 is placed years before they first go to Northampton.