Canon vs Fanon

*plastroncafe* · 06-09-2009, 12:22 PM

Canon vs Fanon.

It's a topic I give a passing think to every now and again: What aspects of plot, story, and characterization have been more heavily influenced by what I've read outside of canon, than can be supported by the actual cartoons/comics/movies etc.

What really got me thinking about this topic this time around was the thread from not too long ago discussing the relative death order of the turtles. In my mind I have a very clear time line for these events, but it wasn't until I read this the thread in question that I was reminded that this time line was all my fabrication and only tentatively based on what canon has said on the matter.

So I'm curious, anyone else do this?
And if not...what part of fanon do you like?
What parts can you just not stand in the slightest?

*DonatelloFan* · 06-09-2009, 12:40 PM

I'm really not trying to be an ass when I say this, but I didn't understand one part of what you were trying to 'ask'. I know you're talking about canon and fanon, but what's the question?

*Sage Ninja* · 06-09-2009, 12:46 PM

Raph wanting to be leader. Raph has never wanted to be leader, he just wants to have no one telling him what to do and call his own shots. He's never had any asperations toward leading the group, and I see to many fanons out there where Leo and Raph are in competion to be leader. It's not the dynamic of Raph and Leo's relationship, so I wish fanboy/girls would quit writing this in their little fanfics.

However I won't say that Raph, in canon, doesn't occassinally take up the position of leader on occassion when the situation demands it, he does and does it remarkably well too. But he doesn't actually have any active desire to lead the team.

*DonatelloFan* · 06-09-2009, 12:54 PM

Isn't a 'fanfic' supposed to be whatever the person writing it wants it to be?

*Sage Ninja* · 06-09-2009, 01:53 PM

well yeah but your taking what your writing from an existing story line, adding to it isn't bad but some people go way over board with it.

*plastroncafe* · 06-09-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonatelloFan

I'm really not trying to be an ass when I say this, but I didn't understand one part of what you were trying to 'ask'. I know you're talking about canon and fanon, but what's the question?

It's possible I should have worded it better.
Regardless, I'm curious as to whether or not fanon ideas have wormed their way into anyone else's head to the point of superimposing actual canon.

In addition to that, what points of fanon do people enjoy, or hate.

*DonatelloFan* · 06-09-2009, 04:22 PM

Ooooooooh, ok, I understand now. I haven't personally read a lot of 'fanons', but the only thing that's 'canon' to me is the original cartoon. No amount of fan stories can change what I think is going on.

I personally like stories that deal with their deaths, relationships between the turtles and others or each other, or what happens further into the future, a la 'Same as it Never Was'. That episode ranks high on my list of favorite TMNT episodes, and it's the only new toon episode that would crack my top 50 of both toons. So that's saying something.

And as far as doing whatever you want with a story, just because some people can't unwrap their mind from an official story, doesn't mean people can't do whatever they want with the TMNT. Yeah, there's an established story, but who cares, it's fan stories, not stuff that will be in the next TMNT comic or movie.

*Rooish* · 06-09-2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

Raph wanting to be leader. Raph has never wanted to be leader, he just wants to have no one telling him what to do and call his own shots. He's never had any asperations toward leading the group, and I see to many fanons out there where Leo and Raph are in competion to be leader. It's not the dynamic of Raph and Leo's relationship, so I wish fanboy/girls would quit writing this in their little fanfics.

However I won't say that Raph, in canon, doesn't occassinally take up the position of leader on occassion when the situation demands it, he does and does it remarkably well too. But he doesn't actually have any active desire to lead the team.

This = the definite truth.

Also, I can't really stand the whole Raph and Leo are the "big brothers" and Don and Mike are the "little brothers" business.

MurderOfCrows · 06-10-2009, 01:23 AM

Guilty, just a little, of indulging the Raph-as-leader fanon; but only when Leo is absent for whatever reason. (Training. Away. They're trapped in another dimension. Whatever.) I think when he matures he could be a capable leader, and will always be an excellent lieutenant of sorts to Leo's captain, spurring an otherwise cautious turtle, while being tempered by a steady hand.

However, I'm not sure if that's FANON anymore; the 2k7 movie has some leadership trials, and he outright says that he understands why Leo was chosen to lead, and Raph was meant to follow. I do believe it's the latter more then the former that grates on him -- he doesn't want to follow anybody (Whoever said I wanted to be lead?) -- but neither can he completely separate himself from his brothers and their team orientation.

If you aren't head dog, the view doesn't change. Raph doesn't want a view of Leo's tail...

...and quite honestly, is a bossy jackass a lot of the time.

Uh. Other fanon:

For me, Raph ends up a gear head. Donnie does more with electronics, software, and widgets then genuine mechanics, while Raph (thanks to Casey) enjoys cars and bikes, getting in their guts. But that's pure fanon... which actually sort of annoys me.

Leo has study and is well rounded, the most practiced and skilled, and the best at thinking through his battles; Donnie is brilliant with anything technical. Mike is quick on his feet, athletic, and cooks, writes, and draws. Raph has no 'other talent' outside beating the crap out of people and I think sometimes he got short-changed in the development department. (I don't think 'berserker' counts as a talent.)

*Cipher* · 06-10-2009, 02:09 AM

I pretty much only take what the story gives us, which often has a lot more depth than was even intended. (Comics, I'm talking about the comics here.) It might have something to do with studying English, which teaches you to analyze only what the story gives you, but to analyze it deeply.

So I'm not going to say, "I think Michelangelo is secretly jealous of Leonardo" or something if it's absolutely never implied by the fiction. On the other hand, there's a lot of reading-between-the-lines that can be done to flesh out character personalities, themes, and even plot events (my afore mentioned Deaths of the TMNT thread being a good example).

I suppose there are a few things I do that could be considered "fanon"-based, is considering some of the guest artist issues of Volume 1 when I talk about the Mirage universe. Because, really, they don't hurt anything, and some of them really help flesh out the history. Also, I have a pretty solid idea in my head of what the TMNT's elder years look like, but, as mentioned ealier and in that other thread, everything takes evidence from existing comics, and changes to accomodate them.

Newton Gimmick · 06-10-2009, 04:10 AM

I find there is enough ample material to interpret between the four or five TMNT canons (Mirage, NT, OT, Movie, Archie, etc) that I don't have to make stuff up. That's not to say I don't necessarily adopt different ideas in my head, such as April being a human for example, as the best for my personal feelings on the matter... But I'm not sure I've ever just randomly decided that Raph is next in line to be the leader, or other some such.

*Buslady* · 06-10-2009, 03:42 PM

I agree w/ Sage Ninja...Raph just wants to do his own thing, have his own space and life and make his own choices.

I'm guilty of writing crap...but hey, it was fun while it lasted. Raph met a lady, fell for her, was captured with the guys during a mission, sold to a zoo, poked & prodded, a rescue team gets em out...Raph becomes dad..yes i know lots hate this but i was having fun with it! Don becomes dad too...*hides*

I'm pretty much done writing, got no inspiration anymore

06-09-2009, 12:46 PM	#3
Sage Ninja Band of the Hawk Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,926	Raph wanting to be leader. Raph has never wanted to be leader, he just wants to have no one telling him what to do and call his own shots. He's never had any asperations toward leading the group, and I see to many fanons out there where Leo and Raph are in competion to be leader. It's not the dynamic of Raph and Leo's relationship, so I wish fanboy/girls would quit writing this in their little fanfics. However I won't say that Raph, in canon, doesn't occassinally take up the position of leader on occassion when the situation demands it, he does and does it remarkably well too. But he doesn't actually have any active desire to lead the team. __________________ Cassandra: You won't fight me, but will you fight--for him! Cassandra's Revenge ~Tangled the Series ________________________________ http://frankviola.org/2012/01/30/godsviewofawoman/ _______________________________ http://nox-artemis.tumblr.com/post/4...k-and-feminism

06-09-2009, 01:53 PM	#5
Sage Ninja Band of the Hawk Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 3,926	well yeah but your taking what your writing from an existing story line, adding to it isn't bad but some people go way over board with it. __________________ Cassandra: You won't fight me, but will you fight--for him! Cassandra's Revenge ~Tangled the Series ________________________________ http://frankviola.org/2012/01/30/godsviewofawoman/ _______________________________ http://nox-artemis.tumblr.com/post/4...k-and-feminism

06-10-2009, 03:42 PM	#12
Buslady WingsOfDarkness! Perkele! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In 7803... Posts: 4,366	I agree w/ Sage Ninja...Raph just wants to do his own thing, have his own space and life and make his own choices. I'm guilty of writing crap...but hey, it was fun while it lasted. Raph met a lady, fell for her, was captured with the guys during a mission, sold to a zoo, poked & prodded, a rescue team gets em out...Raph becomes dad..yes i know lots hate this but i was having fun with it! Don becomes dad too...hides I'm pretty much done writing, got no inspiration anymore __________________

06-09-2009, 12:40 PM	#2
DonatelloFan "The Pixel Dad" Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,764	I'm really not trying to be an ass when I say this, but I didn't understand one part of what you were trying to 'ask'. I know you're talking about canon and fanon, but what's the question?

06-09-2009, 12:54 PM	#4
DonatelloFan "The Pixel Dad" Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,764	Isn't a 'fanfic' supposed to be whatever the person writing it wants it to be?

06-09-2009, 04:22 PM	#7
DonatelloFan "The Pixel Dad" Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,764	Ooooooooh, ok, I understand now. I haven't personally read a lot of 'fanons', but the only thing that's 'canon' to me is the original cartoon. No amount of fan stories can change what I think is going on. I personally like stories that deal with their deaths, relationships between the turtles and others or each other, or what happens further into the future, a la 'Same as it Never Was'. That episode ranks high on my list of favorite TMNT episodes, and it's the only new toon episode that would crack my top 50 of both toons. So that's saying something. And as far as doing whatever you want with a story, just because some people can't unwrap their mind from an official story, doesn't mean people can't do whatever they want with the TMNT. Yeah, there's an established story, but who cares, it's fan stories, not stuff that will be in the next TMNT comic or movie.

06-10-2009, 01:23 AM	#9
MurderOfCrows Random Punk Join Date: May 2009 Location: Utah Posts: 16	Guilty, just a little, of indulging the Raph-as-leader fanon; but only when Leo is absent for whatever reason. (Training. Away. They're trapped in another dimension. Whatever.) I think when he matures he could be a capable leader, and will always be an excellent lieutenant of sorts to Leo's captain, spurring an otherwise cautious turtle, while being tempered by a steady hand. However, I'm not sure if that's FANON anymore; the 2k7 movie has some leadership trials, and he outright says that he understands why Leo was chosen to lead, and Raph was meant to follow. I do believe it's the latter more then the former that grates on him -- he doesn't want to follow anybody (Whoever said I wanted to be lead?) -- but neither can he completely separate himself from his brothers and their team orientation. If you aren't head dog, the view doesn't change. Raph doesn't want a view of Leo's tail... ...and quite honestly, is a bossy jackass a lot of the time. Uh. Other fanon: For me, Raph ends up a gear head. Donnie does more with electronics, software, and widgets then genuine mechanics, while Raph (thanks to Casey) enjoys cars and bikes, getting in their guts. But that's pure fanon... which actually sort of annoys me. Leo has study and is well rounded, the most practiced and skilled, and the best at thinking through his battles; Donnie is brilliant with anything technical. Mike is quick on his feet, athletic, and cooks, writes, and draws. Raph has no 'other talent' outside beating the crap out of people and I think sometimes he got short-changed in the development department. (I don't think 'berserker' counts as a talent.)

06-10-2009, 02:09 AM	#10
Cipher Foot Elite Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 3,454	I pretty much only take what the story gives us, which often has a lot more depth than was even intended. (Comics, I'm talking about the comics here.) It might have something to do with studying English, which teaches you to analyze only what the story gives you, but to analyze it deeply. So I'm not going to say, "I think Michelangelo is secretly jealous of Leonardo" or something if it's absolutely never implied by the fiction. On the other hand, there's a lot of reading-between-the-lines that can be done to flesh out character personalities, themes, and even plot events (my afore mentioned Deaths of the TMNT thread being a good example). I suppose there are a few things I do that could be considered "fanon"-based, is considering some of the guest artist issues of Volume 1 when I talk about the Mirage universe. Because, really, they don't hurt anything, and some of them really help flesh out the history. Also, I have a pretty solid idea in my head of what the TMNT's elder years look like, but, as mentioned ealier and in that other thread, everything takes evidence from existing comics, and changes to accomodate them.

06-10-2009, 04:10 AM	#11
Newton Gimmick Mad Scientist Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,154	I find there is enough ample material to interpret between the four or five TMNT canons (Mirage, NT, OT, Movie, Archie, etc) that I don't have to make stuff up. That's not to say I don't necessarily adopt different ideas in my head, such as April being a human for example, as the best for my personal feelings on the matter... But I'm not sure I've ever just randomly decided that Raph is next in line to be the leader, or other some such.