Animated Wonder Woman

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Brodie

Yeah, and that's why there's oh-so-many fantastic stories people can name off hand about her, arcs that define not just the character but offer a glimpse of how legitimate sequential art is in our society. As well as stories that are cherished not just by WW fans, but the general public and literature enthusiasts alike.


Oh, wait...

I can name plenty of stories and arcs as you describe.

The thing about Wonder Woman is -- and DC themselves still hasn't really figued it out -- ... she's never really going to be a super popular character. Short of coming out with an adults-only "Wonder Woman ****s the JLA," it's just not in the cards. There's just too many factors against her, at least in the realm of comics -- she doesn't fit the mold of comic book "bad girls," she's not quite relateable or appealing to the 12-30 male bread and butter comic book readership, and then there's the whole toxicity of "Well, if I start reading now it's just gonna get rebooted/revamped in another couple of years because that's what always happens with WW."

And I have a lot of problem with the "general public" argument. What the most number of lemmings gravitate toward has no bearing on the merit of a particular character versus another.

I see it kind of like:

Superman: an alien who crash-lands on Earth raised by human parents, protecting Metropolis with his superpowers and never killing. A bald rich guy has a weird hard-on for him. Interesting to a point, but pretty vanilla. The best Superman stories are the simplest... and there's a reason for that.

Wonder Woman: Amazonian Princess, carved of clay and given life by the Gods, is sent to Man's World as its emissary and ambassador. She has a love of all things, protects the world, occasionally kills, and the Greek God of War is her nemesis.

[Spitfire]

I thought the WW movie was horrible. It was okay once but repeat viewings killed it for me. The best thing about the WW DVD was the documentary on her creation and the state of the world at the time.

The GL movie I didn't even like the first time I watched it. I bought the bluray version and aside from how great the animation looked the film fell short. They didn't really do much with GL as a hero. He was badly developed and stood in the background while side characters did most of the talking.

To answer your question I wouldn't care for a WW TV series. She was fine in JLA when she took the spot light now and again but I can't see her doing that every episode.

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's my understanding that Wonder Woman was created solely to be a soft-core bondage porn character. She wasn't supposed to have character and depth, but be pretty and get tied up a lot.

actually I think in the earliest comics of the WW franchise the bondage was supposed to be a sort of metaphore for the economic and psychological bondange women suffered in society, and WW getting tied up by men and then bursting free was sort of her sort of "breaking free" from that and being a liberated woman. Actually I think I have something on that:

In countless stories, she is chained and bound by male villains, only to break free and triumph. The ropes and chains are symbols of patriarchy and the drama is her ability to break the shackles of male domination they symbolize.

It wasn't ment to be perverted...orginally. however I think your soft porn assumtion is also spot on as well because, when other writers took over:

Unfortunately, most comic historians have ignored the feminist elements of the series, and focused on these elements of bondage, reducing the complexity of Marston’s Wonder Woman mythos to little more than a thinly disguised sadomasochistic sexual fantasy.

so...yeah. You pretty much have that dead to rights Plaston. I just wanted to point out that wasn't the orginal intent of the mythos. It's too bad really, that it got mishandled eventually and perverted. I think the dude who created this genuanly wanted to give female readers a posetive female role model to look up to that was strong and capable. The creator was even know to say this:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power…. Women’s strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”

the Greek God of War is her nemesis.

oh sh*t! Wasn't that Xena's shtick?

[Brodie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I can name plenty of stories and arcs as you describe.

And I have a lot of problem with the "general public" argument. What the most number of lemmings gravitate toward has no bearing on the merit of a particular character versus another.


Superman: an alien who crash-lands on Earth raised by human parents, protecting Metropolis with his superpowers and never killing. A bald rich guy has a weird hard-on for him. Interesting to a point, but pretty vanilla. The best Superman stories are the simplest... and there's a reason for that.

Wonder Woman: Amazonian Princess, carved of clay and given life by the Gods, is sent to Man's World as its emissary and ambassador. She has a love of all things, protects the world, occasionally kills, and the Greek God of War is her nemesis.

Again, YOU can name those arcs. But they're lost in the slew of ******** comics that character has been accumulating for 40 years. You can have an issue with the general public argument all you want, but that's one of the reasons why WW consistently fails to sell: The general public doesn't want her.

The best Superman stories aren't the simplest, I think you're wrong in that regard. Complex explorations of the character, humanity (or if an alien can really ever cope with "humanity") are the best. Not the stories wherein he bounces some ****ing bullets off his face. From this month's Brightest day, we've seen that a majority of the DCU can do that now, with Aquaman being the newest addition to the bulletproofed ********.

Your definition of WW is just another rehash of mythology, or story tellers trying to make stories so heavily ingrained within mythology. We've seen it before. A lot. A lot.

You explain the set up to Superman as being "pretty vanilla," but its way more unique than WW, ESPECIALLY considering how long ago his storyline was established, before the influx of copycat characters.

WW's setup? people still don't want it.

You're right about DC not knowing how to make interesting stories with her, or how to handle her, but she's almost not interesting enough to attempt at garnering those stories.

[Turo602]

Wonder Woman is good and all, but I could see how her stories are just a rehashes of Greek Mythos. Which starts to get old after you've seen it all. But I would enjoy a cartoon on her just to see it come to life in animation. I also liked her in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, espeacially with the whole Batman crush thing that got funny.

And don't mess with Supes! Batman and Superman are the two best and most whored characters of DC. And it never gets tirering. It's always cool to see Superman go dark. Like when he owned Darksied.

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by Turo602

Wonder Woman is good and all, but I could see how her stories are just a rehashes of Greek Mythos. Which starts to get old after you've seen it all. But I would enjoy a cartoon on her just to see it come to life in animation. I also liked her in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, espeacially with the whole Batman crush thing that got funny.

And don't mess with Supes! Batman and Superman are the two best and most whored characters of DC. And it never gets tirering. It's always cool to see Superman go dark. Like when he owned Darksied.

Darksied always gets his ass beat by Superman which got kind of old.
As for a Wonder Woman cartoon I'd like to see if the writers could pull it off, but she's just so damn inconsistent it's to really get into her. One day she's all I love the world and want to bring justice to it, another day she is all like f*ck you Superman I can kill if it's justified that anyone who writes her just does whatever the hell he/she wants and totally disregard her past which kind of sucks. At least Supes and Bats are consistent, safe for the occassional breakdown.

[Fledermaus]

Wow Brodie, who made your opinion the be-all-end-all of DC animated films?
Wonder Woman was a very decent film, certainly one of the best of the recent DC animated films - up there with Public Enemies and GL (I would rank Public Enemies, WW, then GL). Wonder Woman was not a bad film, and I'm not the only one who thinks so. Look up any number of major movie review sites. In fact, the attitude here is perhaps the first truly negative response I have encountered (on the web or IRL) regarding the recent Wonder Woman animated movie.

The problem with a Wonder Woman TV series boils down two things, which are in fact... intertwined: 1) the main demographic of comic book fans are dudes. Wonder Woman is.... a woman. And not a sexed up bad girl type. 2) Wonder Woman was and always has been a feminist type icon. A major reason the movie had any integrity may well have been that it was directed by a competent female (which, no offense ladies - you haven't been in the workforce as long- is in itself rare). Likewise, the creator of WW himself was a feminist of sorts (albeit one with a very... odd philosophy... regarding bondage) In other words, Wonder Woman is a tricky character. She is a powerful female protagonist. Ergo, most guys will seriously avoid this thematic subject like the plague - unless he has absolutely no fear of anyone doubting his heterosexuality or the humongous size of his balls (eg. James Cameron, Joss Whedon -and possibly Sam Raimi and Ridley Scott?- to name a few... very few - in fact, yeah, that's probably it.)

WW can be done, but whoever is writing/telling the stories should have a genuine understanding of the character.

I would not expect most guys to have that kind of genuine understanding of women (as anything other than girlfriend/wife/sidekick/innocent childlike character ala Disney Heroines - who btw were all created by heterosexual men who shot guns, drank beer and played football), and therefore Wonder Woman. So while it is not impossible to create a successful WW series (nor is it undeserving of one), I find it unlikely that many people in the industry would have the "background" to address the character and her themes adequately. Hers are not as obvious as more well-known, thoroughly analyzed characters such as Batman or Spider-Man (yeah, marvel, but same idea - more people know/understand these characters).

Although, who knows. The industry is changing, more women are entering the force, feminism isn't that big a deal any more in the public conscience. We may see a series in the next ten years - maybe - but definitely not any time soon. In fact, most female animation students I know (and believe me when I say I live, work, and breath among the current and future leaders in animation in both television and film) have little to no interest in superheroes (save one that I know of - who, ironically is perhaps the biggest comic book nerd in our class), and the male students who are into superheroes have no interest in Wonder Woman as a character (personality), other than her boobies - you know, kind of like women IRL.

[Brodie]

Originally Posted by Fledermaus

Wow Brodie, who made your opinion the be-all-end-all of DC animated films?

I never stated my opinion on the animated films. I was referencing this article, which is referencing this interview with Bruce Timm.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Brodie

A
WW's setup? people still don't want it.

It's more that Boys still don't want it, and theirs is the only demographics that matter in the present comic-themed marketplace.

[Candy Kappa]

maybe her outfit aint skimpy enough

[Brodie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It's more that Boys still don't want it, and theirs is the only demographics that matter in the present comic-themed marketplace.

True. But you also have to consider that the women who do read comics, and buy this stuff? A significant number of them are more apt to buy Batman stuff, rather than Wonder Woman stuff. So that too skews a portion of the demographic Wonder Woman is geared to.

I'd say more males enjoy reading about Wonder Woman's adventures than women do, in this generation.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by Brodie

True. But you also have to consider that the women who do read comics, and buy this stuff? A significant number of them are more apt to buy Batman stuff, rather than Wonder Woman stuff. So that too skews a portion of the demographic Wonder Woman is geared to.

I'd say more males enjoy reading about Wonder Woman's adventures than women do, in this generation.

You're so not wrong from where I'm sitting. Actually, what you're talking about pretty much defines where I'm sitting. As a comic geek of the female persuasion it takes more than little willpower to hold back the instinctive eyeroll that comes with hearing "comics for girls".

And that bias right there is part of the problem. I'd even go so far as saying a MAJOR part of the problem. Even if Wonder Woman is given the cream of the crop story and art-wise, she still has to overcome the stigma of being the Title IX of the DC universe. And that's sad.

I should disclose that I'm not much of a DC fan, save for the cartoons which I've always loved. When it comes to actual comics though, make mine Marvel.

[Brodie]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

You're so not wrong from where I'm sitting. Actually, what you're talking about pretty much defines where I'm sitting. As a comic geek of the female persuasion it takes more than little willpower to hold back the instinctive eyeroll that comes with hearing "comics for girls".

And that bias right there is part of the problem. I'd even go so far as saying a MAJOR part of the problem. Even if Wonder Woman is given the cream of the crop story and art-wise, she still has to overcome the stigma of being the Title IX of the DC universe. And that's sad.

I should disclose that I'm not much of a DC fan, save for the cartoons which I've always loved. When it comes to actual comics though, make mine Marvel.

That stigma comment is pretty spot on,which I think is what I was trying to get across with Andrew.

She doesnt have a backlog of amazing stories that people know about. Which sucks. Like I said, Gail Simone probably did some of the better stuff, but she's coming off it now, and much like Andrew stated, JMS (whom I love) is hopping on, and just rehashing stuff.

[Sage Ninja]

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but, how is it Wonder Woman can't work, but a semi similar character like "Xena Warrior Princess" can? I mean I've sort of noticed they have some similar things about them. Xena has her chakram she can throw, Wonder Woman has her tiara that can also be thrown and is supposed to be sharp enough to cut...ect ect.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

oh sh*t! Wasn't that Xena's shtick?

Eh, I think WW stakes claim to that schdict by the better part of a century.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by shuriken

Darksied always gets his ass beat by Superman which got kind of old.
As for a Wonder Woman cartoon I'd like to see if the writers could pull it off, but she's just so damn inconsistent it's to really get into her. One day she's all I love the world and want to bring justice to it, another day she is all like f*ck you Superman I can kill if it's justified that anyone who writes her just does whatever the hell he/she wants and totally disregard her past which kind of sucks. At least Supes and Bats are consistent, safe for the occassional breakdown.

Sorry I was referencing Superman tas.

[Jelly Bean]

I personally would have loved a Wonder Woman animated series. The fact that there was a live action wonder woman show once proves that a WW animated series could have worked. I'm mildly upset there was never a animated Wonder Woman cartoon during the 90's like bats and Superman did before they got grouped together in Justice league.

However I would only want one if they had a different version of Wonder Woman than the one that was in Justice League series. I just...didn't like her at all. I started out liking her just because she was Wonder Woman but when I got to know her character better I found I didn't like her portrayal. I don't know what the writers where thinking but it almost seemed like they made her unlikable on purpose. She was so arrogant and stuck up that I really couldn't like her too much. I especially hated her attitude toward Hawk Girl when the league was deciding to vote her out or not. She was such a bitch. I would think that given her "solidarity" toward fellow women she would have been more on her side than she was and not hold a grudge the way she did. She held it longer than any of the other founding memebers and it made her look catty and hypicritcal. I was seriously like WTF?

I'm used to the compassionate live action version of Wonder Woman that had a personality, a sense of humor and an actual desire to help people and not judge them as much. So if they did (or ever planed one for the future) I would like it if they had a different Diana/Wonder Woman that showed her character better and gave her better depth than "I am Diana! Princess of the Amazons, bow to me!"

[NameGoesHere1066]

wow. I'm really shocked on how many people are doubtful about Wonder Woman garnering interest as animated series and even more shocked so many didn't like the wonder woman movie after the first viewing. Can you guys please explain your self on why you didn't like the Wonder Woman movie after repeated viewing? What about it turned you off?

She has a strong enough character but the audience isn't there. The animated movie didn't do too hot and interest for Wonder Woman is never that high.

"Sorry, looks like WW isn't making Batman or Superman numbers the past few months (which is crazy -- WW is never going to do those numbers) so it's time to bring in a new creative team."

These arguments sound very similar to the reasons why a "serious" mirage based ninja turtles wouldn't work or be popular.

"the audiance for Wonder Woman isn't there...the interest for WW is never that high..."

"the audiance for a mirage based ninja turtles movie isn't there...people wouldn't like a gritty turtles movie with out Krang and bebop and Rocksteady antics" ect.

It's like WW is the ninja turtles of the DC universe...

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by NameGoesHere1066

It's like WW is the ninja turtles of the DC universe...

thanks for giving me mental images of a turtle in WW drag

[Spacebabie]

Originally Posted by Kiwamu The Kappa

thanks for giving me mental images of a turtle in WW drag

I can only see Mikey be the one to wear it though.